discern:

Your posts have been very penetrating, informative and helpful.

Thanks for being here.

On the other hand Chris' posts is very revealing to say the least.

Anyone reading Chris's posts would come to the same conclusion that you have, that is with the exception of other IHOPers.

Frankly, the pancake house seems like a much safer place to pray and the food is probably better. The original IHOP is at least accountable to its stockholders, which is more than you can say for Bickle's operation.

It never ceases to amaze me how powerful group persuasion techniques can be and how critical thinking can be essentially shut down.

Chris demonstrates that.

Often young people like Chris are looking for a sense of status, feeling chosen or somehow special and important. IHOP appears to foster such feelings and/or what can be seen as spiritual elitism.

IHOP for many of its adherents is a place where people can largely abdicate personal responsibility and let go of worrying about the "world" cocnerns in exchange for IHOP's controlled enviornment and sense of certainty.

There are probably many people at IHOP that afraid to make decisions, and struggle in the real "world," i.e. get a job, pay bills, deal with the normal concerns of "growing up."

In this sense IHOP seems to offer its devotees an exchange, a place where they can escape the "world," but somehow feel superior about it.

It's an interesting formula or dynamic that you can observe over and over again with various groups, ranging from Neo-Eastern and "New Age" gurus, to supposedly "God appointed" or "annointed" leaders like Mike Bickle.

rrmoderator

Thanks for doing what you do. I was very impressed by how you came to the point in a concise and direct way and held to the point throughout.

I appreciate your concern for victims in this matter and I think the most revealing thing about Chris and some of the other IHOP people was that they never addressed the matter of victims. That certainly revealed a lot.

The mindset in these types of groups is always defense for to do anything else would be to admit that one had made some bad choices. I have seen churches like Bib Tiltons Church in Dallas where he divorced and married three times while in the pulpit and nothing happened. His salary was 1.4 million and he took 30 million dollars out of the church when he left and he is still on TV with people sending him money. Something in those people is very broken to have to need something that wrong.

Your right concerning the pancakes and it would be my pleasure to have breakfast with you the next time I get to America.

Thanks discern.

Zeuszor,
1)I believe Ernie Gruens criticism was valid, I believe he went straight into the word, and pulled all his concerns from there, I have never disputed that. Although, many people are rehashing much of what has been dealt with, and there are a few things from that era that linger, and are still subject to critcism, which I have already outlined.
2)I believe it has to do a lot with the language used, and things surrounding ths KCP debacle. Also anything Toronto, or Brownsville, great revival came throught these places, unfortunately a lot of crap got picked up along the way.
3)Sad sometimes, because I miss seeing them around. Yes I have sat around with some folks, had a little coffee, or just run into them at the Krogers. And no there are no restrictions on talking to whomever you want, nor are there any repercussions for doing so.
4)I am a lot more critical than you would think, I am a Berean. Yes some people are lieing, SOME, many are misinformed, and THERE ARE VALID CRITICISMS, as with MOST ministries. Unfortunately (?), I do not run into disgruntled IHoPpers as apparently some do. Overall I hear only positive things. I tell everyone about what I do at IHOP, and invite people all the time, I have had exactly 1 person tell me, they did not like IHOP, that's 1. She offered no criticism, by the way. Everything bad I have heard has come over the internet.
I am indeed a critical thinker, I have looked into the doings, in depth, of ANY ministry I have ever been involved with. I have left churches because of their lack of concern for the lost.
I have taken issue with Discern for his lack of transparency, but very strong criticisms, many addressed already in this thread, some I know were not true, and some were doctrinal differences, what things were true, were skewed, or really had little to do with IHoP but could be worded to be an indictment on IHoP. The rest mere speculation, and his attitiude has been one of condescending superiority. I do not feel superior to the rest of the church, I do not think I am some part of an elite endtimes gang who knows more than everybody else. I am called to do what I do, and simply put, to my own Master I stand or fall. Zueszor, there is a difference in concern for someone's soul, and a striving to be right at all costs, rather than righteous. It's not about winning an argument. I am not a young man, I am at least twice the age of your average IHoPper. I have not shut down my critical thinking, I am not typical, of anything. But one thing I am is,... done with this thread,
Titus 3:9-11
avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless. 10 Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him. 11 You may be sure that such a man is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.
IHOP does not need to be defended, if so there would probably be a website, not just a page somewhere. Look, if you really are worried about money, go and ask for the stuff you want from IHOP, I mean come on, what is the purpose of these long drawn out arguments? I present my apology, I am condemned as... to sum it all up; an imbecile, non-thinking hive animal. Now, others present their charges, and are commended as being concise, wise, etc etc, no matter in what manner or spirit they present in. We should consider our own houses. One last thing; I have seen 'dictator' bandied about, NONE of the signatures are there. Personally, I'd love to have any of you come visit, come and hang out for one of my pre-dawn devo's.(Whoops, IHoPese-def. devotional worship time)Grace and Peace to you, with MUCH love and kind affection

chris.fitzpatrick:

Sorry, but you do seem to have shut down your critical thinking, at least where IHOP is concerned.

Your response to the question about what is wrong with IHOP and Mike Bickle illustrates this point.

You find little if anything meaningful to address that is wrong with IHOP, despite its deeply troubled history, continued complaints and the simple fact that it is after all a human-run organization.

All Bickle needs to do according to you is a little "nip-and-tuck" regarding his sordid past associations and history by editing published material and toning down his rhetoric.

Please understand that there are many ex-IHOPers who feel quite differently than you do and have very negative feelings about their experiences at IHOP. There are also families seriously concerned about the involvedment of loved ones.

But thank you for at least admitting candidly that IHOP is essentially a dictatorship run by "God appointed" Mike Bickle, a person you apparently think just might be a "prophet."

And also thanks for the tacit admission that IHOP has no meaningful financial transparency, i.e. a published and independently audited report that discloses in detail salaries, expenses and compensation paid out from tax-exempted ministry funds.

You don't really know for sure where the money goes at IHOP any more than anyone else does there, with the exception that is of Bickle and his chosen few.

Whatever your rationalizations, these admissions were meaningful to set the record straight.

The only proof you could have offered to contradict this would be a published financial statement or an IHOP constitution with bylaws, which reflected just how Bicle is held accountable and not a dictator.

Instead you have offered nothing, other than self-serving proof texting, which is neither biblical or applicable.

You are no "Berean."

In fairness, even though you do seem to harbor feelings of spiritual elitism, this seems to be more likely a byproduct of IHOP indoctrination, rather than your own arrogance.

Of course it is understood that you are here as little more than a IHOP apologist, but it has been worthwhile having an exchange.

I am sorry for mistaking you for a younger man. I suspected you were in your early twenties judging from the posts you contributed here.

If you are much older, perhaps it's time to start thinking about what you are going to do with the rest of your life, other than following Bickle and serving IHOP.

Based upon IHOP's history and your statements it doesn't seem likely that Bickle will provide any future security ("prophet" sharing, 401K, health insurance, retirement benefits) for you.

If you are really "done" at this point that's fine.

Frankly, repeating the same apologies over and over again isn't really contributing to the dialog on this thread.

I live in the KC area and visited IHOP once with a friend. I was very uncomfortable there to be honest, but I chalked it up to my not being into or used to chanting/call response type worship. Also the IHOPese really weirded me out and threw some serious red flags up for me. Having found this thread I see another reason to be leary of IHOP. Like RR said, lack of financial accountability.

Here's the thing... pastors, called of God or not are also people. People who do not structure their lives with some form of accountability with checks and balances typically find themselves spinning out of control into things they never intended to get drawn into... no one when their teacher asks them what they want to be when they grow up says, "I want to be a power crazed dictator over a church." By the same token most pastors do not start out that way. Absolute power corrupts people. History proves that over and over again both within the church and outside of the church.

I believe that RR is concerned with a democratically elected board not because democracy is in the Bible... but the real point is that if the pastor soley appoints the board, that is still absolute power because obviously if you agree with the pastor you're hearing from God and therefore board material. :o A democratically elected board ensures the church body has a voice in who the pastor is accountable to... thus providing a check against absolute power. We humans NEED that. ...and like I said pastors are humans.

My dad pastored for years and thankfully he was wise enough to see a need to structure the church in such a way that he was accountable to the membership as well as to God. ...but then he never made a dime from the church and worked an outside job to make money. So it's somewhat amusing the extreme amount of financial accountability he built in when he never withdrew from the church account other then to pay church bills. He used to tell me that pastors who think because God called them that means they are above corruption, are fooling not only themselves... but probably a good number of the people who have placed their trust in them.

One last point... I used to be in the financial services industry and taught a seminar in some churches about financial planning and stuff... one thing that I still clearly remember from the material is that there are a couple thousand verses in the Bible about stewardship (fancy word for financial accountability) and how to handle posessions... there are more verses you can relate to that then almost any other subject. I wonder why. :shock:

Has anyone seen the IHOP conference in Jeruselum? It's been broadcast on the God channel. Does anyone have any info on speaking in tongues?

Copperpenny:

"Speaking-in-tongues" is a general Petecostal/Charismatic Christian practice.

See [abcnews.go.com]

That is not the topic of this thread though.