You ought to seek out this man:

[www.arcapologetics.org]

He's a Grandview pastor and has done a LOT of research on the IHOP/KCP movement. He can teach you quite a bit.

Hey, I'm going to go ahead and buy that mp3 about IHOP. Although just for the record, I agree with IHOP's doctrine (as outlined fully on their site). They agree with portions of controversial doctrines, (as I pointed out earlier), but reject the non- or extra-biblical parts. Because of that, you can't really just go exclusively by their list of doctrine names.

If claims made here are valid, I obviously don't agree with them. Some of it is subject to interpretation. For example, condition of living quarters is subject to the claimant's accustomed lifestyle. That's why I said photographs would be so much more useful. If you have anything, I (and I think everyone here) would be interested to see.

I should also mention that there are a variety of accomodations, depending on long-term or short-term stay. I would imagine, for example, the overnight or weekend accomodations are smaller than rooms for long-term visitors. You may also consider the time of the original complaints. I don't know if you realize how pathetically small IHOP was in the beginning. I'm not trying to make excuses, just how ability to accomodate may have changed. Again, I lack visuals. :(

Info on housing can be found here: (Just FYI)

[ihop-intl.org]

[www.ihop.org]

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Paul submitted to the elderes in Jerusalem.

Depends on what you mean by submit. He certainly did not "submit" in the manner you suggest and a close reading of the New Testament shows when he disagree with them and felt he was right, he taught different things, minor issues admittedly for the most part, than they did, and he rebuked Peter, perhaps the leading apostle/disciple to his face.

So no, he didn't "submit" his calling and ministry to them. He submitted in the sense of communicated with them in a church conference for the sake of unity, but did that after he already started his own ministry without their consent and blessing.

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And the disciples had accountability to each other.

So does Bickle with his colleagues. I don't really like being in the position of defending him since I don't know him, but your charges are a false balance in these areas.

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There is nothing regarding meaningful accountability in place at IHOP and now as further proof you are attempting to use the bible to defend a dictatorship.

Who says? You. You have showed us nothing, no evidence at all of your claims. Where is the evidence he is a "dictator"?

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The bible was written in the First Century before Christianity had billions of believers and thousands of denominations with churches around the globe.

That doesn't make it wrong, does it? It seems to me in your haste to condemn people for not following extrabiblical rules and laws, you are willing to start discounting and throwing out the Bible.

Which is worse? Not having an accountability program to your liking, or throwing out parts of the Bible because they don't fit your liking?

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As Christianity grew, like other religions, the need arose to organize and create structure for the multitude of believers.

Who says? If you ask me, that structure is responsible for countless murders, rapes, wars, child molestations, etc,.....It is incredible to me that someone would make your argument in the modern the world. The rise of the mentality and beliefs you espouse led directly to millioms of real Christians being slaughtered because they didn't accept that "structure."

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The Protestant Reformation was in part a strong reaction to the abuse of absolute power.

Maybe so, but the Protestants persecuted and killed the Christians that held to what most Christians believe today as true. People forget it wasn't just Catholics and Protestants, but Evangelicals preceded both and were largely known under various names such as Anabaptists during the time of the Reformation.

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Protestants would then historically organize democratically elected church government, which would provide meaningful accountability to the vast majority of Protestant churches and denominations.

There is a wide range of church polity among Protestants and keep in mind today's Protestants are a hybrid of Protestant and Anabaptist beliefs. Baptists are very democratic.....the laity votes people in. I think Anglicans have a different approach, correct?

And the Pope is "elected" as well anyway.

On another point, one could argue all ministries are somewhat democratic in this country in the sense that people can vote with their feet.

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Interestingly, the complaints that I receive typically come from groups that have no such provisions for accountability and essentially operate like petty kingdoms with self-proclaimed monarchs.

Maybe so. I hear complaints of abuse and problems across the board among all denominations regardless of their accountability program.

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Historically, ministry scandals such as Jim Bakker and the PTL Club, Jimmy Swaggert and the current controversy swirling around TBN and Benny Hinn, largely have to do with the lack of meaningful accountability.

Swaggart certainly was under "accountability" and was defrocked, but this is a free country. Don't you think that is a good thing?

Also, seems you are focussed on one branch of Christianity and ignoring the problems elsewhere. Maybe you just aren't in touch with a lot of people, but there are major scandals and problems in all denominations. Charismatics and Pentacostals are in no way leading the pack there.

That reminds me, I promised Keith some cd's, SEVERAL weeks ago.

randman:

You are going around and around attempting to defend IHOP and Mike Bickle even offering selective proof texting of the bible to support his power.

However, you have repeatedly and completely failed to provide two pivotal things that could potentially demonstrate Mike Bickle is not a dictator over IHOP.

An IHOP costitution with bylaws that provide for his accountability, which details exactly and specifically how Bickle and others are accountable.

An independently audited financial report, which details Bickles total compensation annually, through salary, expenses and/or any benefits.

Absent these two items your apologies fall flat.

No one can fire Bickle.

And no one actually knows how much money Bickle collects through IHOP.

The evidence that Bickle is essentially a dictator has been provided by you through your responses on this board and by the lack of the above cited items that would prove otherwise.

Of course as you noted unhappy people at IHOP "can vote with their feet."

In other words, it's either Bickle's way or the highway.

Another analogy that demonstrates he is a dictatorship.

Thankfully the overwhelming majority of Protestant ministries and churches don't generate complaints like those about IHOP. And they have meaningful accountability.

Anyone considering what church or ministry to support should consider that.

A Heart for God:

Thanks for providing the links regarding housing and beverage and food services at IHOP.

This illustrates how IHOP makes money from the people that intern, volunteer and visit.

You're right. Housing should be free.

Please explain more thoroughly why this housing arrangement is different from a more secular-based housing arrangement, financially speaking.

A Heart for God:

Typically secular housing is a for-profit business to make money.

IHOP is supposed to be a nonprofit tax-exempted charity.

And again, there is no meaningful financial transparency, despite its nonprofit status.