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rrmoderator
A Heart for God:

Typically secular housing is a for-profit business to make money.

IHOP is supposed to be a nonprofit tax-exempted charity.

Contrary to belief, a non-profit organization is allowed to make profits. It simply means it is not geared specifically at making profits.

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rrmoderator
There are so many ministries that don't have such a troubled history and therefore represent a much safer less potentially harmful place to support and become involved.

Christianity as a whole has a "troubled history." That alone is hardly something to judge by.

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zeuszor
When I was in KC I heard a lot of anecdotal accounts from some locals (I actually rented a room from a woman who was ex-staff from there but had dissasociated herself from IHOP) who were ex-staff from IHOP, and was given descriptions of how at times the students at the "school of ministry" were housed in shoddy apartments under deplorable, crowded conditions (such as an account of a makeshift latrine in a closet with a 5-gallon bucket, accounts of how at times they were made to bathe by being "hosed off" outdoors with garden hoses, and 6-8 people crammed into a 2-3 bedroom apartment.) Such were the residences provided by IHOP to its students.

While I doubt the bucket-for-a-toilet and the hosed-off-for-a-shower scenario (at least as supported by IHOP), the number of people per appartment is exactly double the number of bedrooms, I can say for sure. These are provided as [i:80fbbd7c03]temporary[/i:80fbbd7c03] living quarters, not permanent ones. Further, the size of them is unknown to you or I, so we can't really say if they're truly "cramped." Notice how the detail you were given was stretched just on this point, though. IHOP clearly states the capacity of its appartments.

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zeuszor
I heard stories of mandatory fasting and prayer according to prearranged schedules, and of all-night prayer vigils and minimal sleep.

True, there is mandatory fasting and all night prayer vigils. However, IHOP will ask you to fast "if you are able." And the "night watch" (as I believe it is called) is essentially like third shift (if we were talking about a job). Minimal sleep would likely be of choice. For example, if you were on night watch and wanted to participate in something the next day, obviously you would get minimal sleep.

These small details are somewhat important in the interpretation of these events, as you can clearly see.

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Of 60-hour work weeks.

"Work week?" Any details on what this actually means?

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But they didn't renew the leases as agreed to verbally; instead, they kicked 'em all out and the 24/7 prayer room was born.

First, you said yourself here the agreement was verbal. And perhaps it was agreed upon by someone further down in authority. Again, small details missing.
There is also an inconsistency in history here. Glad Heart Realty was established in 2001. The 24/7 Prayer Room was established in Sept. 1999. Your anecdote proposes that Glad Heart had something to do with the establishment of the Prayer Room, but this is completely impossible.

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zeuszor
Anecdotes about confrontations with the local Muslim community. People in KC, I was told, HATE the IHOPpers and said exactly what you said Doug, that they are the kind of Christians who give sincere disciples a bad name. I remember one person told me that they'd rather stand on the steps of the Capitol Building with some tape over their mouths that has LIFE written on them, rather than do something to, say, help feed the homeless guy living on the street close to IHOP. That they are caught up in spiritual superiority and judgementalism.

You're way off. One of IHOP's largest ministries is providing for the poor. Followed closely by (I believe) the Israel Mandate.

Further, IHOP has a substantial turnover of attendees each year. What a small number of people do once is hardly indicative of the group as a whole. You need to learn to distinguish staff from students & interns.

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zeuszor
One woman told me an account of a personal meeting she had with Bickle in which she asked him for advice and help for dealing with some IHOP people that she had put up in her home, but who were not contributing to the rent or bills or anything. She came to Mike to ask him for his help in removing them from her home and finding them housing elsewhere. Bickle told her to kick them out and not worry about what happened to them; that that was their problem. She said that she was stunned by Bickle's callous attitude and her shock is what caused her to be able to see through the BS and eventually leave IHOP. She was on staff for 10-odd years and was in leadership, and she told me that Bickle is more interested in building his own little empire than he is about the people that [i:80fbbd7c03]help him build it.[/i:80fbbd7c03] Exactly that.

So you think it's OK for people to freeload? I have an uncle like that who was living with us, and he flat out refused to help with anything financially. Eventually, we were forced to kick him out. Apparently, though he had no problem eating our food. Sound like the same story, but with IHOPers.

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zeuszor
Now, I went to KC and did a silly thing, with that shirt and anointing people at all.

No, you were kicked out because you looked like a pagan. You were dressed like you were from a Hare Krishna group. And it is quite common for certain pagan followers (I believe including Wicca) to wear spikenard oil in a vial around their neck (particularly pagan priests & priestesses). You, as a Christian, are an ambassador of Christ according to the Bible. But who will know it by looking? Indeed, God knows your heart and does not look at the outside, but consider the context next time. You are called to represent Christ.

IHOP security & staff are trained to recognize these elements.

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zeuszor
But I was able to meet some people who told me a lot about IHOP. A local pastor took me on a tour of the town and showed me all of the various properties that GHR owns around there, along with a place that he purported to be Bickle's actual residence, actually a rather modest-looking condo. Bickle, he explained, does not live in a mansion or anything, but that fact belies that he, through GHR and IHOP, has a lot of money, and BINGO, that between that "ministry" and GHR's properties, rules over quite a little "Kingdom"s there.

Actually, GHR is owned by Mike's wife. IHOP and its board of directors does not have charge over it. By the way, if you're in KC right now, I can give you Bickle's [i:80fbbd7c03]legal[/i:80fbbd7c03] address so you can check it out for yourself. Provided you aren't going to do something wierd if I do.

Heart for God"

You said,

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a non-profit organization is allowed to make profits.

You are not making much sense here.

IHOP is a tax-exempted religious non-profit, not a business.

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Christianity as a whole has a "troubled history."

The subject of this thread is not Christianity, but rather IHOP and how it is run.

Again, unlike IHOP and Mike Bickle, the overwhelmingly majority of Christian ministries today don't have a troubled history.

That's the point.

Many former cult members have pointed out, that when you can rationalize almost anything the group does, you have really largely lost your ability to independently engage in critical thinking.

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rrmoderator
You are not making much sense here.

IHOP is a tax-exempted religious non-profit, not a business.

I have provided you a legal definition. Look it up, you'll see it's true.

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The subject of this thread is not Christianity, but rather IHOP and how it is run

Again, unlike IHOP and Mike Bickle, the overwhelmingly majority of Christian ministries today don't have a troubled history.

That's the point.

You contradict yourself. First, you'll ignore Christianity's bad history because it's not like that now. Yet you'll look at the KCP movement and use it to define IHOP and Bickle. And even in doing that, you completely ignore the changes since KCP, nevermind that Bickle himself has actually renounced some of them, or admitted his wrongdoing, etc. Mentioning that apparently makes me an apologist, too.

Then you'll try to build a vague strawman, just small enough to keep my point from accurately being seen. You've done this a couple times to me, usually when I'm making a comparison. My point was not to discuss Christianity's history, but to point out why troubled history does not necessarily govern the present.

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Many former cult members have pointed out, that when you can rationalize almost anything the group does, you have really largely lost your ability to independently engage in critical thinking.

That's nice to know. But I've never been a member of IHOP. Period.

You fail to acknowledge staff vs. student activites. So it's easy to point out flaws of IHOP when you look at their constantly changing body. Hence, high turnover rate I mentioned earlier. It's the staff that's in charge, not the attendees.

Heart for God:

You are going in circles again and again.

Bickle has a bad history and has admitted it.

OK.

Bickle still has no meaningful accountability, so in that regard things have not changed much at IHOP.

IHOP takes advantage of tax-exempt religious nonprofit status, but Bickle has allowed no meaningful financial transparency regarding what he is paid in toal from its charitable funds annually.

These are objective points you repeatedly attempt to ignore, obfuscate or rationalize.

Please try to stay on topic and make some sense in your posts here.

For someone who has supposedly "never been a member of IHOP" you come across like someone only here to apologize for the group and its leader.

Would you like my name so you can check it with IHOP? I have nothing to hide.

Heart for God:

Once again you missed the point.

The point is you come across as little more than a diehard apologist for IHOP.

I have at times had an 84 hour 'work week' it's voluntary, we have a form called a sacred trust, on which I detail how many hours and what times I can be expected to be in the prayer room. Many people feel called to 24/7 prayer, fasting and worship, sometimes it just for a season, pretty much if you don't want to be there, you aren't, nobody 'makes' anybody do anything. I am on the night watch by the way. We have MANDATORY fasting, which is outlined in the staff application, so if I didn't feel like fasting every Tuesday, I didn't have to go on staff. Secondly, if I can't fast or just don't feel like it, I don't have to either. But I have made a commitment to other people, whom my heart just happens to be on fire for, and so I do. If I have to do things in the daylight hours, and I leave early to sleep, that's ok too, but I am not going to leave the room empty, this is important to me, there are prayer rooms all over the world, they are popping up everywhere, many of them have no connection with IHOP, some had never heard of IHOP, for instance the NHOP in Canada. I [b:16c7c38c6f]KNOW[/b:16c7c38c6f] God is in the middle of this, and besides that, he is certainly worthy to be be worshipped and extolled without ceasing, that one there is a no-brainer. I am not a part of KC, but IHOP-Atlanta is modeled very closely after them, I had read many of these different collections of apologia about what IHOP teaches, and was quite dumbfounded, since I attend the Gatekeeper School of Ministry, I attend every encounter service, I attend (most of) my department meetings, community briefings etc, and these things are not being taught. As for the loads of money being taken in, first off in Atlanta, our bookstore is FREE, it's between you and God. Our staff housing costs $250 a month, maybe one day we will own the buildings outright. Almost all of the work done around here, we do, because the money just isn't there, plus the money that is there, we are accountable for, all of us, from the intern to the director, live a fasted lifestyle, I don't worry about financial accountability, simply because I know where the money is going already. As for the idea that someone giving to a ministry should consider financial accountability, that's just patently false on it's face, if ALL 'your' money is God's money, and at best you are only a steward of it, perhaps you should consult with Him before giving anything, to anyone, not some financial statement, and hey I've put oodles of cash in collection plates over the past 4 decades, and most of the time I didn't use the envelope. So who's to say the cash even gets counted when adding up what goes on the statement in some of these ministries? As for these TBN personalities, if you see a guy wearing an $800 suit, just where do you think your money is going? Common sense might be a good thing to bring into the forefront. But the scripture, and listening for HIS still small voice are the only criteria. Yet, I still have seen no scripture advocating this practice. I haven't skirted any issues here, I answered them head on, granted I am not in KC, but in Atlanta. I owned a bakery once, I could buy a 40# bag of donut mix, it's profit potential was $300, but after I pay my guys and gals their paychecks, the accountant, the gas bill, the electric bill, chemicals for cleaning, rent, garbage collection etc etc, a $7000 dollar week, netted me $800. Think for a minute on that. Man, I hope somebody gets the parallel.

chris.fitzpatrick:

OK. You have firmly established that you don't care about meaningful financial accountability.

Got it.

And you have also repeatedly made it known through your posts that IHOP and its leaders have no meaningful accountability.

Fine. That's their choice and they run things as they wish.

You trust IHOP leaders and take them at the word that everything is OK and figure if anything goes wrong God will take care of it.

Some might see this as "blind trust," but that's your choice.

Please understand that most Christians prefer meaningful accountability for their leaders along with financial transparency.

But for those that don't care about such things, perhaps IHOP is an option.

Given the persistent complaints about IHOP and its deeply troubled history, I would not recommend it.

But if you like it and it makes you happy, that's your choice and risk to take.

Thankfully, there are many other Christian ministries to support without all the baggage and problems IHOP has had, so there are viable alternatives for Christians wishing to support a ministry.

And apparently, anyone supporting IHOP is a mindless sheep.

There are indeed things I disagree with concerning IHOP's staff (particularly not allowing them to work), but I have yet to find the perfect church. Further, they may be more comfortable with a vow of poverty than you or I. Although it's not entirely Biblical. I do however support the no dating for interns policy. The purpose of internship is to seek God without disctraction. Internship is only 6 months long, and afterward, you are free to do what you wish. A cult would try to control you indefinitely.

While I'm at it, let's review what IHOP is about, so we can see everything at once instead of in pieces. IHOP exists for the sole purpose of prayer, whatever the style. In addition to conventional spoken prayer, there is prayer through music (called "Harp & Bowl" based on Revelation's mention of the Bowl of Incence of the prayers of the saints. The harp of course represents music.) There is also prayer through fasting. Naturally, these elements are required of staff because they are the core of what the organization stands for. You wouldn't join a golf club to go swimming, for example.

IHOP does not hide its rules. They are on display for the general public, as well as on applications. Therefore, potential students, interns, and staff are fully aware of what they are getting into.

IHOP encourages independant thinking, especially concerning the Word. You are blantantly told not to believe what about the Bible if there's not specific Biblical reference. Further, worship is required to be Biblically grounded as well. A cult would tell you "my interpretation of the Bible is absolute." Not the case. And if I recall correctly, Mike has changed his interpretation a number of times based on what he's learned from others. Hardly a "my way or the highway" mentality, as you alleged earlier.

IHOP does not have a general assembly. All participants are required to have their own church. Anyone participating in a program has to have recommendation from a pastor. This is a blantant indicator that Mike has no interest in ruling over people. FMA is another example of this. It is connected to IHOP, but not under it's charge, nor Mike's.

Considering IHOP doesn't [i:8f219b1b6f]confine[/i:8f219b1b6f] its participants, there is no real "danger" of going there (as you seem to suppose). I am free to come and go as I wish, as with most religious organizations. Attending the prayer/worship room is free, even though it is the most expensive operation at IHOP. It's [i:8f219b1b6f]programs[/i:8f219b1b6f] and [i:8f219b1b6f]seminars[/i:8f219b1b6f] that cost money, and are often headed up by others, not just Mike.

A mere 30 minutes in the prayer room would likely revel to you the sincerity of attendees' interest in God, not Mike, or even IHOP.

The board of directors has charge over Mike, as I mentioned earlier. The fact that he is required to meet with them weekly to discuss his ministry demonstrates they are keeping him in check. You claim the board isn't ligitimate or to your liking. Fine. While you think Bickle is "ruling like a king," neither the actions nor mentality of such a claim is present.

I might also point out that Mike is very busy & involved in ministry, many hours on a daily basis. Someone hording money would likely want time to spend it.

Not that it matters or proves anything, but IHOPers have a great sense of humor, too. They refer to their lingo as "IHOPese." And I believe it was Merchant Band (one of IHOP's more well known worship bands) that coined the phrase "snoring in the spirit."

Heart for God:

Thanks for pointing out that IHOP has fairly extensive rules, including some that govern the personal lives of its "interns" and impoverished staffers.

Between the rental properties, fees, free labor and constant fund-raising, Mike Bickle seems to have turned prayer into something of a "cash cow."

IHOP's rules may not be hidden, but Bickle's total compensation and details about its finances are.

No one knows exactly how much Bickle takes from ministry funds.

And there is no set of bylaws that you have cited constitutionally that could potentially provide for Bickle being kept in check and/or fired.

Bickle apparently is IHOP leader for life, even though he has admittedly drifted from one mistaken biblical interpretation to another over the years, which hardly inspires confidence.

There is no "perfect church," but there are many churches and ministries with less bad baggage than Bickle's IHOP.