That's Ephesians chapter 5, verse 18 (above).

What does James 2:9 mean to you, Chris?

"God appointed, not man. We find numerous examples of people taking everything they had selling it and laying it at the Apostle's feet. If you look in Acts, you will find that all the people had everything in common. I am most definitely not advocating communism, maybe communalism? I digress. Basically man came up with democracy. Now by God's grace we happen to live in a country that uses this form of goverment, conversely it would be no less God's grace were we to live in China, which has a thriving, vibrant church, in spite of the persecution. Always seems to be the case, they kill us, we grow, hmmm. Now here in the US, we get to vote, and I advocate that, scripture tells us that if it is in the power of our hand to do good and we do not do it, for us it is sin, (James 4:17). Still, it was democracy that made it lawul for women to murder their children before they were born. Interestingly enough, christians are not even to avail themselves of remedies in worldly courts. In fact we are even to endure quietly the plundering of our goods. (1 Corinthians 6:1, Matthew 5:40, Hebrews 10:34) We should not use the world's standards or methods for our discernment, judgement, or even how we operate our households, much less the household of God. As for giving here is the scriptural standard"

Isn't it possible that God might use a democratic process as a vehicle through which His will might be done on earth, in terms of the selection of leaders of nations? That passage you might be referring to about God appointing leaders, well, my Bible does not say that.
[b:d3d51d778b]
Hbr 13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of [their] conversation.
Hbr 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that [is] unprofitable for you.
Hbr 13:24 Salute all them that have the rule over you, and all the saints. They of Italy salute you.[/b:d3d51d778b]
[b:d3d51d778b]
1Pe 2:13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;
1Pe 2:17 Honour all [men]. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king. [/b:d3d51d778b]
[b:d3d51d778b]
1Pe 2:13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;[/b:d3d51d778b]

These refer to rulers of nations, Chris. The point is, who elected Mike Bickle? Nobody. Mike Bickle anointed himself.

James 2:9, if ye have respect for persons, ye commit sin, being convicted by the law as transgressors. Treating others (great and least, rich and poor, as we know in Christ, there are no differences) by different standards because of their position in order to gain special favor or advantage. As for Ephesians 5:18, Paul is making a contrast, between drunkednessm and being filled with the Spirit, drunk in the Spirit? I know this is a pet doctrine with many, but I see NO scriptural support for it, I CAN see how scripture has been twisted to arrive at it. But In the list of fruits of the Spirit, the very first one is self control, we are warned throughout scripture about drunkedness. Water and fire are traditionally associated with the Holy Spirit, wine is used once, in an allegorical sense; ie you don't put new wine into old wineskins, but then again in the same saying, Jesus used the comparison of putting a new patch on an old garment. The mockers on Pentecost claiming the men were drunk, were the equivalent today of someone saying, Dude, you're high! So I don't fall into that camp, many of my friends do, I am saddened, I consider it to be the demonic manifestation of a mocking spirit. As Solomon said, wine is a mocker, strong drink a brawler, whoever is led astray by them is unwise.
Anyway back to the previous post.....

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Sometimes I dress certain ways in churches just to see what the people there are made of, to challenge their idolatries. To shake up their churchy sensibilities. Also I was wearing a loop of thick Hare Krsna tulasi prayer beads. Jeans and sandals too. Nothing too outrageous

Josho had this to say

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Defensive, hurt, full of angst, clearly rejected and hurt by it... these things fueled that post. You shift the blame for you bieng kicked out of a church where you defied the rules in place by the authority there, onto them. You wore the beads to test their idolatries.... but it looks like they tested yours instead. If its still about everyone else and what they did wrong, you've got a lot of spiritual growth to do.
I'm very sorry but that is not a mature, humble attitude coming from a person who trusts in God. Please don't go sewing seeds of rebellion and distorting the words of people's teachings to justify that rebellion. It would be better to have a millstone hung around your neck and be cast into the sea, quite frankly...

You called that a scare tactic, it was a little strongly worded I agree, but you also said

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Oh well. But then, showing individuality and thinking for yourself is a grave sin in these super-Charismaniac circles. (Yawn) [b:22f4385e9c]All they did was prove my point for me[/b:22f4385e9c].(Emphasis mine)

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If I go to church dressed hippie-style to see how I am recieved

There's more it looks like you had an agenda, listen I too - have experienced a little discipline, I was wearing camo cargo shorts, ankle beads, a tank-top under my un-buttoned hawai'ian shirt, I was told that it was inappropriate to be barefoot when ministering on the platform, would I please put my flip-flops back on? I wear this most of the time, but I have learned my lesson and I keep a pair of socks in my laptop bag.
Ok another quote from GIDEON;

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zeuszor:
Let me ask you this question, if you are at church on a Sunday morning and you are a memeber/usher (whatever you want to call it) and you see a man that you have never seen before wearing Krishna beeds, bowing his head, and "praying/chanting/cursing" over someone. [What would you do]? Maybe they where out of line, but you nor I know what that church has encountered in the past, in terms of other negative "beleifs".
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So how do you know that Mike Bickle's authority comes from anyone but Mike Bickle? Because Mike Bickle said so? Judging by the fruit of IHOP that I tasted the other night, I'd say it's pretty rotten.

I dont see how you could even mention this because there is no way that you or I could ever know for sure where his authority comes from.
I would also like to question your motives in "checking out IHOP." I dont understand why you would have worn what you wore to IHOP or any church for that matter. i dont know if you where trying to push buttons and get a reaction or what, but i would say that you def. got one if you were.

Geez, what can say here? Basically, I am not the only one that got that impression.

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OK. Gothcha
You are for democracy, but not regarding your religious life, where your prefer to live under a dictatorship.

No, I am not for democracy, as I said it is an invention of the pagan Greeks, Romans and poly,poly, polytheist Asian cultures, doesn't seem to have survived much in Asia though. Still, I cannot pray and weep before God night after night over some issue on a ballot and not cast my vote as well, I ask God to move people's hearts for this mechanism of change, I must be willing too. This of course would not be a problem if I were living in Cuba for instance. Or under the former Iraqi regime of the former Saddam Hussein. I live under the law of love, a slave who stays with his master (Jesus) after gaining his freedom, and I have really been set free, I love Him, I am desperate for Him, I will stay as long as He wants me, He promised that is forever, like Ruth said to Naomi;

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Entreat me not to leave thee, and to return from following after thee, for whither thou goest, I will go; and where thou lodgest, I will lodge; thy people shall be my people, and thy God my God;
17 where thou diest, will I die, and there will I be buried: Jehovah do so to me, and more also, if aught but death part thee and me.(Ruth 1:16-17)

Leaders come, leaders go, men come and men go; we all go to the same place. A dictatorship, as we understand it, is a system in which one man makes all the rules, arbitrarily, and enforces his grip by imprisonment, torture, death, seizure of ones goods and intimidation. I don't see this at IHOP. The leadership there is incredibly tolerant, simply because of the love WE all have for oneanother, and knowing they must give account. Even when asking me to cover a set for someone, they act as if they are putting me out and asking some huge favor (they still don't get that I actually enjoy doing it) To go on staff at IHOP, I had to pass an application process, get written recommendations from my pastors and take an intro course so I would know exactly what IHOP is all about, you know no one builds a tower without counting the cost. I'm no elitest, I am a weak human being, just like everyone else, this is not some dictatorship, we all submit to oneanother, in love. This sin't the right thread, nor the the right forum to explain, what this really is, it's not some esoteric, hidden knowledge, NEW thing bag, it's simply a bunch of people in a community given over to a fasted lifestyle, going after God whole-heartedly, entering into this lifestyle voluntarily, some for a lifetime, some for a season, before going on to other ministries or back into college or the marketplace. We stay before the Lord constantly, lifting up worship, because He is the ONLY worthy God, He is worth pursuing, we give to the poor (money yes AND practical helps), we preach the gospel to the lost, we intercede for our city, this region and this nation, the world at large with emphasis particulary on natural Israel, we pray for missionaries currently in the field, we co-operate with different ministries in a variety of outreaches, most recently this weekend when over a 1/4 million, homosexuals, bi-sexuals and transgendered persons came to our city to celebrate. We reached out to them in love as well, and we prayed and sought the Lord night and day as well before, during and after. We are joining with a local ministry [i:22f4385e9c]and[/i:22f4385e9c] IHOP-KC, next month for the One Thing Atlanta conference next month (free by the way), many of us are fasting the 40 days before July 7th (07/07/07) for the call in Nashville, and no, I'm not one of those, maybe the week before, as I said all voluntary, no dictators here. This doesn't make me MORE holy than the next guy, it is a calling, I got called, I went. (and I can leave) It sure is exciting fasting and praying all night, (feel the sarcasm) you better believe I counted the cost. It is worth it. I don't mind laying my life down, setting it aside, (nobody ordered or forced me) it is most definitely worth it.

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God appointed, not man. We find numerous examples of people taking everything they had selling it and laying it at the Apostle's feet. If you look in Acts, you will find that all the people had everything in common. I am most definitely not advocating communism, maybe communalism? I digress.

Are you saying that you view Bickle as an Apostle (!!!) and have layed everything at his feet, so to speak? If you [b:c2b9989d73]are not[/b:c2b9989d73] saying that you see Mike as an apostle, what [i:c2b9989d73]is[/i:c2b9989d73] your point? If you [b:c2b9989d73]are[/b:c2b9989d73] saying that you see him as such, why?

zeuszor are you using the Darby Bible? Ok in reply, yes, emphatic yes, God does use goverments as a vehicle, certainly, goe without saying. Yes we should submit ourselves to earthly authority, such as don't speed, carry auto insurance (this is not a complete list, just [i:e5c43e3a48]some[/i:e5c43e3a48] examples) although we ought to obey God rather than man when circumstance finds them at odds, Peter told not to preach Jesus, did it any way, christians in the Roman world were not allowed to meet together, they did it any way, just as was done in communist Russia and in China even today along with many Mohamedean countries as well. Even converting to Jesus can cost you your life many places today. Some interesting things to look at if you have an inquiring mind, would be the book 'The Heavenly Man' by Brother Yun and the publication offered by the Voice of the Martyrs, a group started by Richard Wurmbrand, relating stories of martyrdom and persecution of our brethren in today's world. But yes we submit to goverment, God has appointed them, he even raised up Darius and Pharoah for that matter. Also the scriptures yopu gave from Hebrews are about church leadership, the ones from 1st Peter have to do with secular leaders, and I don't believe that at the time these were written, any leaders were elected. [b:e5c43e3a48]Yeah, nobody elected Mike Bickle, your point is?[/b:e5c43e3a48] But Mike Bickle annointing himself? I don't follow. As for Mike being an apostle, I haven't made my mind up on that, the example I gave was a generalization of the spirit of giving and the attitude of a sermon-on-the-mount, fasted lifestyle, which it seems the early church embraced.

chirs.fitzpatrick:

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As for Mike being an apostle, I haven't made my mind up on that

Very interesting statement.

The Fact is that this matter was reported to police and other ministries as well.

Who are you to suppose who I am and attack me without any evidence?

Who are you to suppose that I am some itinerant minister?

What is an intercessory missionary and could you tell me where I can find that position in the Bible?

Maybe if you would pray about what I wrote you would get some revelation since prayer is supposed to be your ministry. You might also find out who I am by praying instead of attacking someone you do not know.

When you googled discern did you bother to read the definition of the word. Discern preaches truth.

Your attack is proof of my point about what happens when anyone speaks anything but the party line concerning IHOP and it fits the classic definition of a cult. NO OPENESS.

Multiple counts of sexual misconduct in this camp over a period of years that are proven, admitted fact and people like you still defend them and attack people you do not know.

Why did IHOP bring in Andrew Comiskey (Founder/Director of Desert Stream Ministries, a ministry that deals with the healing of various sexual and relational problems) directly after Paul Cain was outed if there was no problems at IHOP?

Concerning Paul Cain and how he was handled or what he said were you there? Or is what you speak just speculation or is it just a lack of discernment?

You don't know enough about the matter to even have a mind that is open to truth. Look deep enough and you will see. Otherwise sit around and type smart alec replies to things you know nothing about. Somewhere I believe there is a scripture that deals with how you are supposed to respond to an elder. Your lack of respect for anyone save your opinion is a vivid display of your ignorance.

It is typical IHOP protectionism that you practice and it is obviuous.

In time all will be exposed to the light. Meanwhile people with an open mind need to be able to look at something other than the IHOP party line and the abundance of propaganda that comes from them and you.

As for me I said what I know to be true and I will allow the Lord to judge me. You can argue as much as you want and contend over truth. As for me I will hold my peace and post no more. I also will not bother reading your response. If even one person is kept out of this mess then what I wrote served it's purpose.

I have too much real ministry to do than to sit around typing responses to people who have made a profession out of arguing about things they know nothing about. That is the primary problem in the Church of America, a lot of arm chair Christians who never do anything but sit on their blessed assurance. A little of God and a lot of them. No matter what the Word of God shows them they refuse to discern the truth.

[/quote]

Let me start off by saying I misread your post,

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As a minister of the Gospel for over 30 years I had stopped at IHOP while travelling

I am sorry. Still the fact remains, that you were traveling and stopped there, all of the sudden you became privy to all these inner sanctum type manueverings, I don't buy it. I DID NOT attack you, I attacked what you said, even if these facts are true, which they are not, the way they are written and presented have every signature of being second hand information. Now on the other hand you did attack me,

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[b:a3ea5dc2ec]Who are you[/b:a3ea5dc2ec] to suppose who I am and...

[[quote]b]Who are you[/b] to suppose that I am some [/quote] Let those statements stand, there is no need to reiterate the spirit in which those were intended. The word missionary is found in scripture as [b:a3ea5dc2ec]added[/b:a3ea5dc2ec] margin helps, all in the book of Acts, it IS NOT part of the text of scripture, so by your logic, Medical Missionary, or Missionary to Ecuador are invalid (any type of missionary for that matter. Intercessory missionary, describes what I do, which is intercede on behalf of my city, this region, the nation and the world at large, day and night. I am on staff at IHOP, I am NOT one of the 'youth' I am in a position to know that much of what you posted is simply UNTRUE, that does not take discerment, a term, which you misused in this previous post. I have 8 children, I have been a Locksmith for the past 33 years, Certified Registered since1992, and a Certified MASTER Locksmith since 1996, a Forensic Locksmith since 1997. You have no idea what my age is yet you say

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Somewhere I believe there is a scripture that deals with how you are supposed to respond to an elder.

BTW it's 1st Timothy 5:1. You mock me personally and belittle the ministry of prayer by telling me

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Maybe if you would pray about what I wrote you would get some revelation since prayer is supposed to be your ministry. You might also find out who I am by praying instead

You want to be anonymous, but doing so gives no creedence to your discourse, and the FACT that I KNOW that some of what you have said is untrue, leaves suspect everything else you said, and this last post most assuredly brought your heart to the surface. This is a public forum, therefore I am compelled to answer you on this. I do not do this joyfully.

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When you googled discern did you bother to read the definition of the word. Discern preaches truth.

That definition is incorrect.

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Your attack is proof of my point about what happens when anyone speaks anything but the party line concerning IHOP and it fits the classic definition of a cult. NO OPENESS.

(1 Corinthians 9:3 This is my defense to those who sit in judgment on me.) Once again I did not attack you, you on the other hand... When did you make this point? My replies are what happens when someone tells untruth and I answer with truth to expose the untruth, Scripture tells us in 1st Peter 3:15-16

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always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear; 16 having a good conscience, that when they defame you as evildoers, those who revile your good conduct in Christ may be ashamed.

Also I have been nothing if not open. Your above quoted statement is what one says who has nothing concrete to say, who believes he is right, and is said to anyone who disagrees with his assessment, classic.

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Multiple counts of sexual misconduct in this camp over a period of years that are proven, admitted fact and [b:a3ea5dc2ec]people like you[/b:a3ea5dc2ec] still defend them

Again gossip, as a community of people committed to personal holiness and a fasted lifestyle, it is not something you will see much of if any, and I can guarantee you if it were in the open, IT WOULD NOT BE TOLERATED BY ANYONE, in an earlier post I related how smoking tobacco will see one removed from all ministry functions until it is dealt with. Being voluntary, if folks wanted to fornicate or what have you, they could much more easily accomplish that in some other venue. Again, proven? Admitted FACT? I will give you Paul Cain as an example, that's about it, hey there could be 1 or 2 more, but thats about it, Multiple? You don't know IHOP very well, no bragging, I say this in all humility, it's pretty hardcore, the pursuit of the Holy and the only worthy God. You can't even be considered for staff without a written recomendation from your pastor, which I, and most others never even see. We seek holiness, those who don't end up just walking away.

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Why did IHOP bring in Andrew Comiskey (Founder/Director of Desert Stream Ministries, a ministry that deals with the healing of various sexual and [b:a3ea5dc2ec]relational[/b:a3ea5dc2ec] problems) directly after Paul Cain was outed if there was no problems at IHOP?

First off, you are presenting this as some kind of PROOF? What are you suggesting? If Dave Wilkerson had him visit....I'm not even going to finish that, last week he was in Albuquerque, in september he will be at some global leadership conference, in November: Fort worth. Many, many people at some point in their lives have experienced some sort of sexual trauma, perhaps as children, from the football coach, from fathers, spouses, maybe even a stranger or a neighbor etc, many people have broken relationships with husbands, wives parents or siblings. Obviously he has a good message, so he was asked to speak.

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Concerning Paul Cain and how he was handled or what he said were you there? Or is what you speak just speculation or is it just a lack of discernment?

What does discernment have to do with this statement, from what you have posted, you obviously were NOT there, but perhaps on the fringes. No I was not there, does that prove your point? No. Paul is STILL involved with the restoration ministry, and is under terms for only limited ministry even now, check it out, if you are interested in [b:a3ea5dc2ec]discerning[/b:a3ea5dc2ec] the truth. I am not a fan of Paul Cain, I am not defending him or his sin, just as I will not defend my own sin.

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You don't know enough about the matter to even have a mind that is open to truth. Look deep enough and you will see. Otherwise sit around and type smart alec replies to [b:a3ea5dc2ec]things you know nothing about[/b:a3ea5dc2ec] (really?). Somewhere I believe there is a scripture that deals with how you are supposed to respond to an elder. Your lack of respect for anyone save your opinion is a vivid display of your ignorance.

Actually I know quite a bit about the matter, the fact that I do know LOTS about this, only proves how much you do not know, as for looking deep, I have pretty much the whole tome on everything you ever wanted to know about IHOP, Kansas City Prophets (Bob 'nekkid before the Lord' Jones), Toronto, Brownsville etc, that every Tom, Dick and Harry offered up an opinion on. Plus many other groups with their own special brand of pentecostal foolishness, charismatic excesses and outright heresy and doctrines of demons. [b:a3ea5dc2ec]I do study[/b:a3ea5dc2ec]. Already addressed the 'elder' thing. What you deem lack of respect for anyone can be easily translated as 'you don't agree with me and I think I'm right'. As for me being ignorant, I have been reading Greek since I was 12 a little Latin as well. I read Russian, and several other Baltic languages, I understand and speak an ever expanding vocabulary in Hebrew, proficient in Spanish which I was teaching to the 3d grade when I was in the 6th., a little German, French and an extremely small smattering of Mandarin. I can also bless or curse you in Gaelic. I attended Marathon Bible College, and I taught high school for several years. I attribute all of this to the Sovereign God and His Grace and Good Favor, nothing from me. All this of course is as dung, when compared to the [b:a3ea5dc2ec]surpassing knowledge of the Glory of Jesus Christ[/b:a3ea5dc2ec]. My mind loves facts. I did not walk unwittingly into some cult. I checked and double checked, prayed, discussed, and listened for the Lord's leading. I am an IHoPper, I am there daily, I am not in some vacuum, I KNOW almost all of what you said is false, by extension, I liberally apply that label to the rest of it.
You talk about christians sitting on their 'blessed assurance' I assure you, I am involved in all kinds of practical ministry, particularly with the poor. I do spend a lot of time on my knees or on my face before the Lord, I do this day and night, every day. I also prefer to follow the scriptures which tell me to work out my salvation daily, not just to sit on it. He must increase, and i must decrease. As a profession, last Wednesday was my last day locksmithing, 33 years. I now serve soley as an intercessor and a worship leader

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1 Chronicles 9:33 These are the singers,..., who lodged in the chambers, and were free from other duties; for they were employed in that work day and night.

Now the last bit of what you said

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No matter what the Word of God shows them they refuse to discern the truth.

Where did you, [b:a3ea5dc2ec]even once[/b:a3ea5dc2ec], use the Word of God?
I have said a lot of things here which I did not want to say, this was friendly, a little jovial at times, I took issue with what you posted, since it was not true. I repent of the way I handled it, I still maintain that I did not attack you, yet I repent none-the-less. I am in great sorrow that this discourse is as it is. If you found any bravado or arrogance in my reply to what you have deemed as my ignorance, it is [b:a3ea5dc2ec]ABSOLUTELY NOT[/b:a3ea5dc2ec] intended, I am nothing, I have nothing but what God has given me. The things that matter most, the things that are worthy, is first the gift of His Son, Who was slain before the foundations of the earth were laid, all for my (our) need and worthlessness, He lavished His Love on my filth. Second is His Holy Spirit, who comforts me when I am hurt, Who leads me to the Truth, never speaks of Himself, but Glorifies the Son and points me back to the cross.




[/quote]

chris.fitzpatrick:

Do you think there is anything wrong at IHOP?

Is any criticism about IHOP, Bickle's style of ministry and/or Bickle's or IHOP's methodology valid?

What would you like to see changed at IHOP?

What do you think Mike Bickle has done wrong, which has caused so many Christians to criticize both him and IHOP?

What could Mike Bickle do now to improve the situation regarding his reputation and suspicions about him and IHOP?