True, you know Solomon said, that one who meddles in a quarrel not his own is like one who takes a passing dog by the ears, and even as closely related as Atlanta is with KC, I really don't have a reference for this, the very brief meeting I had with Mike earlier this year, did not cover this topic. Honestly I had no business jumping in to this fray, ill prepared and fact deficient, you will forgive me I hope. Not being able to say for sure about KC, even though similar in structure, mission and teaching, I know Bily can be dismissed, Mike, I just don't know.

Perhaps you could see if Mr. Bickle himself could post here and answer a few questions? We would appreciate it.

Zeusor, sorry Mike is in KC, I'm in ATL,
Counselor47, I have not taken a vow of poverty, seriously, but it is not [b:160ad92595]only[/b:160ad92595] the love of money we are warned about, you will find plenty of references throughout the scripture of God warning His people with.... lest you grow fat and forget My commandments, lest you grow fat and forget me etc etc, here is a snippet of 'Official' IHOP (KC) doctrine Sub heading B under "what is apostolic christianity" -;It results in wholeheartedness as it embraces holiness and discipleship. In other words, the fasted lifestyle is described in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5–7). It resists the “pleasure seeking Western church culture” that results in “lazy friendly churches” who refuse self-denial and commitment. Apostolic Christianity receives God’s blessing (prosperity) as a means to increase God’s Kingdom rather than to live as “consumer Christians” who use most of their resources to live extravagantly. and the statement of faith =;WE BELIEVE that God has called the Church to preach the Gospel to all nations, and especially to remember the poor and to minister to their needs through sacrificial giving and practical service. This ministry is an expression of the heart of the Lord Jesus Christ and is an essential part of the Kingdom of God. [Isaiah 58:6–12 and 61:1; Matthew 5–7, 28:18–20; Luke 4:18 and 21:1–4; Galatians 2:10; 1 Timothy 6:8]
Ok, then.......

Chris:

So what does it mean then if Mike Bickle has grown "fat" from IHOP?

It seems Bickle doesn't mind if people like you don't have anything, but apparently he takes care of himself rather well.

Does that make Mike Bickle "lazy" and one of those "consumer Christians"?

You are harsh and judgemental regarding other ministries and churches, but apparently unable or unwilling to see the problems at IHOP.

Quote
chris.fitzpatrick
Zeusor, sorry Mike is in KC, I'm in ATL,
Counselor47, I have not taken a vow of poverty, seriously, but it is not [b:bf2dba37f8]only[/b:bf2dba37f8] the love of money we are warned about, you will find plenty of references throughout the scripture of God warning His people with.... lest you grow fat and forget My commandments, lest you grow fat and forget me etc etc, here is a snippet of 'Official' IHOP (KC) doctrine Sub heading B under "what is apostolic christianity" -;It results in wholeheartedness as it embraces holiness and discipleship. In other words, the fasted lifestyle is described in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5–7). It resists the “pleasure seeking Western church culture” that results in “lazy friendly churches” who refuse self-denial and commitment. Apostolic Christianity receives God’s blessing (prosperity) as a means to increase God’s Kingdom rather than to live as “consumer Christians” who use most of their resources to live extravagantly. and the statement of faith =;WE BELIEVE that God has called the Church to preach the Gospel to all nations, and especially to remember the poor and to minister to their needs through sacrificial giving and practical service. This ministry is an expression of the heart of the Lord Jesus Christ and is an essential part of the Kingdom of God. [Isaiah 58:6–12 and 61:1; Matthew 5–7, 28:18–20; Luke 4:18 and 21:1–4; Galatians 2:10; 1 Timothy 6:8]
Ok, then.......

Well, contact him and invite him to participate here, won't you?

Quote
chris.fitzpatrick
Counselor47, I have not taken a vow of poverty, seriously, but it is not [b:d5f063519d]only[/b:d5f063519d] the love of money we are warned about, you will find plenty of references throughout the scripture of God warning His people with.... lest you grow fat and forget My commandments, lest you grow fat and forget me etc etc, here is a snippet of 'Official' IHOP (KC) doctrine Sub heading B under "what is apostolic christianity" -;It results in wholeheartedness as it embraces holiness and discipleship. In other words, the fasted lifestyle is described in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5–7). It resists the “pleasure seeking Western church culture” that results in “lazy friendly churches” who refuse self-denial and commitment. Apostolic Christianity receives God’s blessing (prosperity) as a means to increase God’s Kingdom rather than to live as “consumer Christians” who use most of their resources to live extravagantly. and the statement of faith =;WE BELIEVE that God has called the Church to preach the Gospel to all nations, and especially to remember the poor and to minister to their needs through sacrificial giving and practical service. This ministry is an expression of the heart of the Lord Jesus Christ and is an essential part of the Kingdom of God. [Isaiah 58:6–12 and 61:1; Matthew 5–7, 28:18–20; Luke 4:18 and 21:1–4; Galatians 2:10; 1 Timothy 6:8]
Ok, then.......

Gee, Chris, I sure hope I can be truly spiritual one day, like you.
But, seriously, it is people like yourself who give Christianity a bad name. You are an arrogant, condescending, self-righteous Pharisee.

I will pray for you.

Counselor47, I don't know how you arrived at me being arrogant, condescending or self righteous. I don't mean to be, I really need to go back and examine my posts, I am horrified that you would think that, not at you, but that somehow I might come off like that, if I was rude to you, I am sorry. Just because I don't perceive it, does not make it untrue, I ask for forgiveness from you, I am sorry.

When I was in KC I heard a lot of anecdotal accounts from some locals (I actually rented a room from a woman who was ex-staff from there but had dissasociated herself from IHOP) who were ex-staff from IHOP, and was given descriptions of how at times the students at the "school of ministry" were housed in shoddy apartments under deplorable, crowded conditions (such as an account of a makeshift latrine in a closet with a 5-gallon bucket, accounts of how at times they were made to bathe by being "hosed off" outdoors with garden hoses, and 6-8 people crammed into a 2-3 bedroom apartment.) Such were the residences provided by IHOP to its students. How they were basically made to beg for money for their "missionary activities." I heard stories of mandatory fasting and prayer according to prearranged schedules, and of all-night prayer vigils and minimal sleep. Of 60-hour work weeks. I was told a bit about Glad Heart Realty's (GHR) questionable business practices and of how they double-crossed the group that sold them some of their properties in KC (which are extensive). Of how they agreed as one of the terms of the sale to renew the leases of the tenants of the property that now hosts IHOP's prayer room and that complex. But they didn't renew the leases as agreed to verbally; instead, they kicked 'em all out and the 24/7 prayer room was born. Anecdotes about confrontations with the local Muslim community. People in KC, I was told, HATE the IHOPpers and said exactly what you said Doug, that they are the kind of Christians who give sincere disciples a bad name. I remember one person told me that they'd rather stand on the steps of the Capitol Building with some tape over their mouths that has LIFE written on them, rather than do something to, say, help feed the homeless guy living on the street close to IHOP. That they are caught up in spiritual superiority and judgementalism. One woman told me an account of a personal meeting she had with Bickle in which she asked him for advice and help for dealing with some IHOP people that she had put up in her home, but who were not contributing to the rent or bills or anything. She came to Mike to ask him for his help in removing them from her home and finding them housing elsewhere. Bickle told her to kick them out and not worry about what happened to them; that that was their problem. She said that she was stunned by Bickle's callous attitude and her shock is what caused her to be able to see through the BS and eventually leave IHOP. She was on staff for 10-odd years and was in leadership, and she told me that Bickle is more interested in building his own little empire than he is about the people that [i:279dc8c8ab]help him build it.[/i:279dc8c8ab] Exactly that. Now, I went to KC and did a silly thing, with that shirt and anointing people at all. But I was able to meet some people who told me a lot about IHOP. A local pastor took me on a tour of the town and showed me all of the various properties that GHR owns around there, along with a place that he purported to be Bickle's actual residence, actually a rather modest-looking condo. Bickle, he explained, does not live in a mansion or anything, but that fact belies that he, through GHR and IHOP, has a lot of money, and BINGO, that between that "ministry" and GHR's properties, rules over quite a little "Kingdom"s there.

RR, sorry, I was just giving the "OFFICIAL" line off ihop.org. But I do agree, with a great deal of it, having been a christian now for 27 years, I have seen a great deal of nutball stuff come down the pike. Some of it unfortunately is still with us today. I don't like to judge, there are certain things we do judge, doctrine for instance, when I speak of nutball stuff, I am talking about doctrine. Not people, but there seems to be a christianity going on, which is totally ME centered. Little or no concern for the lost and dieing, the same group spoken of in the scriptures, who see the naked and starving and say, 'God bless you, be warm and be filled', but do nothing to alleviate the condition. James 4:17 - James 5:4 Remember, it is sin to know what you ought to do and then not do it (James 5) Look here, you rich people, weep and groan with anguish because of all the terrible troubles ahead of you. 2 Your wealth is rotting away, and your fine clothes are moth-eaten rags. 3 Your gold and silver have become worthless. The very wealth you were counting on will eat away your flesh in hell. This treasure you have accumulated will stand as evidence against you on the day of judgment. NLT The Word of God bears this out. I believe this is talking about those who seek after posessions and not God, not a blanket condemnation of the church. Now as far as I know Mike is not getting fat off of IHOP, I know that he writes books, he sells them, he gets paid for that. Knowing him (slightly, VERY slightly) and knowing a great deal about him, good and bad, I KNOW he is not out there to accumulate things. I find nothing wrong with living well, I do find great fault when that is the aim of one's life, but I have come to recognise this as the spirit of this age, of course it is not my job to find fault so let me qualify my last statements. As for Mike not minding if people like me don't have anything, I don't know about that, and neither do you. As for me, I HAVE NOT taken some vow of poverty, I just refuse to chase after worthless pursuits. I have what I need, what I don't have yet need, is always provided, God is good like that. NO this does not make me holy, nor more righteous than the next guy, this is the life I have been called to, I agree with my calling (mostly*) so I embrace it, I want God, I want to know His heart, so I run after it, this is how I have been called to do it.(*I am just like everybody else, I struggle with mortifying my flesh, I struggle with personal holiness in the choices I make) I don't believe I can adequately explain the fasted lifestyle, if you are NOT called to it, then you will have no reference for it, neither did I. No biggie. Look, I am not looking for reputation, or position for that matter. These things belong to God, and I will NOT contend for what is His. I am satisfied with what I have, when it hurts, I look to the Shepherd, when I see others in need, I look to Him, 'cause I just don't have it.

Hmmm, well, these sure are some serious accusations, so I will ask around, plenty folks around here have been to Kansas City, many took training there. I do know that [b:eebb5af271]OUR[/b:eebb5af271] staff housing here is comfortable, not mansions or anything like that. I do maintenance on occasion, say a door needs fixed or somebody blows a fuse, so I have been in them. I can say this from experience though, usually when someone gets offended at something, they will tell everybody, blow it out of proportion and do everything they can to discredit whoever offended them, even lie. Which I am not saying is the case here, but from what I know, and what I hear from you, there is a VERY large gap, so please forgive me if I am incredulous, but [b:eebb5af271]I WILL[/b:eebb5af271] take [b:eebb5af271]YOU[/b:eebb5af271], at [b:eebb5af271]YOUR[/b:eebb5af271] word, and investigate what was told to you. Also, a lot of people repeat things, making the stories their own, so..... But you have indeed raised some questions, I WILL look into it.