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rrmoderator
Thanks for pointing out that IHOP has fairly extensive rules, including some that govern the personal lives of its "interns" and impoverished staffers.

You are considerably close to comitting a strawman fallacy. Neither you nor I know if staff members have ever requested to be put on payroll and were denied. An intern does not normally work for wages, but for experience. You forget that this is a Christian establishment that may operate according to things you do not agree with in the first place.

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rrmoderator
Bickle apparently is IHOP leader for life, even though he has admittedly drifted from one mistaken biblical interpretation to another over the years, which hardly inspires confidence.

By your logic, I shouldn't be able to trust the Bible purely because all of its writers comitted sins at some point.

Heart for God:

Sorry, but you are talking in circles and not making much sense.

This discussion isn't about the bible, but about how Bickle runs IHOP.

Your false arguments regarding the bible would be an example of a "straw man" argument.

At this point you seem to have run out of gas.

Do you have anything else to offer or is that about it?

Well, since you insist on turning what I say into something completely different and taking it out of context over and over, I guess I'm done. It' s little difficult to make a point that way.

A Heart for God:

See if you can actually come up with something that has substance.

For example find the following:

IHOP's constitution and bylaws, which specifically explains the structure and accountability of the organization.

An independently audited financial report, budget or statement that details where money goes that is taken in by IHOP, through expenses, salaries and compensation.

This would provide objective substance to support your statements.

Do some meaningful research.

Accountability or the lack thereof is a very significant factor when examining groups like IHOP or "leaders" like Mike Bickle. I was present at IHOP when Paul Cain was "outed" by Rick Joyner, Jack Deere and Mike Bickle. As a minister of the Gospel for over 30 years I had stopped at IHOP while travelling and was privy to the "inner circle" of IHOP and it's coverup of what I consider to be a criminal matter.

When Mike Bickle and others exposed Paul Cain they did it in a way that covered up their own sin. I had youth in this movement tell me that they had been sexually abused by Paul Cain years before the exposure. It was well know by Bickle and Joyner that this was going on. They made a choice to cover it up. When I told the "leadership" that it was required by law to report this to the authorities if there was even a remote possibility that a victim could have been underage they attacked me. Their response was that if I said anything to anyone they would bring their considerable resources to bear and destroy me and my ministry. They went so far as to reach into the country that I came from and try to find any "dirt" on me that they could use.

In one specific case of a youth abused I informed them that this person had all the classic signs present before a mental breakdown. I told them that it was fine to pray for Paul but what about the victims. They told me that the victim was "fine" and who was I to tell them what to do.

This ministry not only infects the Body of Christ nationally but internationall and does so because there is no one to call them down. The matter of Paul Cain is of importance because not only was there sexual sin here but also with another of their infamous prophets as well as open drug use, alcohol use, and sexual sin amongst youth. I began to wonder why no one investigated this serious matter until I realized that to do so would affect so many "supporting" churches and ministries.

I believe this shows emphatically the consequences of the lack of accountability in so many corporation churches. No one in the Body of Christ fully investigated this matter. It was said by one of the "leaders" at IHOP that Paul Cain had threatened to expose what he knew about many "leaders" in the Body and that they had to "shut down" the problem quickly.

Apathy prevents the complete exposure of this problem to this day. Many sit and discuss IHOP's theology, which should be fully looked into, while missing this matter of Paul Cain. Leaders in this matter have stated openly that they knew of Paul Cains problems years before exposre and ignored it because of his "gift". Look not further thqan this matter and you will find the reason why you should stay far away from IHOP and in fact should work to expose the "heart" of this movement.

Additionally think on this. Everytime someone like Bickle is caught there is a tim,e where he says, "I'm sorry, I was wrong". Check and see how many times this has happened. When and how will there be consequences for misleading and deceiving people? While visiting IHOP one of the problems I saw with the staff was that anything that was said that questioned Mike Bickle was considered wrong. Staff and "innner circle" leaders would attack anyone that questioned "the wizard of Oz". This is not the way to grow and it is surely symptomatic of any cult. Take the definition of a cult and see if IHOP fits it and you will have your answer as to whether this group is a cult. The most important thing however is not the definition but the fact that lives have been impacted here and in some case it resulted in destruction of life.

For those of you who would pull out Matthew 7:1 look and see that there is no where that Jesus commanded us not to discern. Discernment is considered a spiritual gift and it is much different that taking action based on discernment for that is judgment. We all discern daily a million different things and if there is not a problem with discerning that it is dark in the room and then turning on the light switch then get over the guilt and the guilt projection and turn on the light. Do it for the victims of this madness. Paul did he said that if anyone brings another Gospel them let them be an anathema.

Those who accuse others who discern are guilty of the very judgment that they accuse others of. Discernment is just saying what you see and leaving the judging to Jesus for all judgment has been given to Him. Too warn others to stay away from things like IHOP is based in fact and not accusation.

Discern, The end of your post is interesting

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Too warn others to stay away from things like IHOP is based in fact and not accusation.

Fact eh? This thread has been recently concerned with accountability, you know, 'let's see some proof' etc, it somehow evolved into this, if you have read from the beginning, you will see a poster named zeuszor, wandered into an ihop meeting dressed like some sort of hindu/drunken latino and proceeded to annoint people with oil, and promptly got singled out and ejected, which I assume was the reaction he intended for. Then we get all kinds of wild accusations, such as people using buckets for toilets and the like, some 'factualish' things from 17 and more some odd years back (all addressed answered and refuted earlier). So it finally rolls around to financial accountability, and accountability in general. So here I pose these questions to you, ok you are a traveling (itinerant) preacher, a fine occupation, Paul amongst many others was one. But like the demon said to the 7 sons of Sceva, "Jesus I know and Paul I know, but who are you?" I googled and found no minister named discern, really I looked, now I am familiar with Discernment Ministries, and I am all for discerment, in fact I am adamant about it. So, where is your accountability? Who are you? So an itinerant preacher 'stops' at IHOP, and suddenly becomes privy to all these secret backroom, star chamber discussions. Now, the evil IHOP leadership has been keeping this all under wraps, you 'stop' there and they spill the whole bag of beans right on you? So, Paul Cain was going to expose all this himself? Well looks like they outed him and still he didn't have much to say, in fact, Paul Cain REFUSED restoration, eventually he did this later with a restoration ministry out in CA, the name escapes me, google it if you will. Now this ministry because of who they are, and I understand their process takes about 3 years, sometimes longer, would also be under legal obligation to report sexual misconduct with a minor, they did not, nobody stepped forward, and they still have their accreditation. In fact nobody, even anonymously, stepped forward and said anything to the police or the press, or we would be reading it. But it seems, and I in no way condone this behavior, that Cain was involved in a 'relationship', you know, had himself a 'boyfriend' not running around preying on underage male staffers, or any staffers. Come to think of it, wouldn't you be under a legal obligation to report this?

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In one specific case of a youth abused I informed them that....

You didn't report this?

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I had youth in this movement tell me that they had been sexually abused by Paul Cain years before the exposure.

or these?

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...open drug use, alcohol use, and sexual sin amongst youth.

This is interesting, being on staff at an IHOP, we are committed to personal holiness, we are ACCOUNTABLE to one-another. I'll give you a for instance; If you are a musician, a singer, a prayer leader or what-have-you, if you are smoking (tobacco) you will be given counseling and removed from that position, until that is no longer a problem. Ok that's just for smoking. Yet you allege

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open drug use, alcohol use, and sexual sin

it simply is not tolerated in our community, there is no place for it. We deal with it, IF it happens, but you forget one thing, this is all VOLUNTARY, if you want to do drugs, fornicate and be a drunk, you don't go through the process of coming on staff.
So, here goes, What you have written, on the face of it has all the markings of, at best, 2nd or 3d hand gossip. At worst, outright fabrication, which is a fancy way to say that you are most likely lieing, in any case, if it is gossip, you presented it as a first-person account, which would indeed make this a lie, even IF the facts were true, which is highly unlikely. You have obscured your name, which is fine, but you had a few choice words to say about accountability, but then provided none for yourself, your stories do not even ring true. Anybody can look up Paul Cain for themselves and get actual OFFICIAL reports, and they are brutally honest. Look trash IHOP all you want, but perhaps some verifiable facts? Say has anybody contacted IHOP and asked for financial reports? By-laws? A constitution? Other than these things, which I still maintain are not required by scripture ( I am a Berean after all) and not needful for giving to a ministry (it's not your money it's God's, and you should not give unless He tells you to anyway) Ministries get their authority from God, not men, if God has given authority, do men voting nullify God? If God has not given authority, don't take time to vote, just get out. Are we going to run our Church the way the world runs their corporations, or goverments? I suppose a worldly outlook would make this seem attractive. People tend to want to have a 'stake' in their church, or one's ministry affiliations. It's like the old joke, "How many_____does it take to change a lightbulb? Answer: Hey my grandmother donated that lightbulb! If I give 5 bucks to a homeless guy, I don't follow him around to see how he spends it, I don't do that for ministiries either. It's not my money, I ASK THE LORD FIRST before I shell it out, because, ultimately, I AM ACCOUNTABLE for what I do with His money. I also don't give money to get money, seed faith? Find that in the scripture. It has to do with the spread of the Gospel. This post is already too long.

chris.fitzpatrick:

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Are we going to run our Church the way the world runs their corporations, or goverments? I suppose a worldly outlook would make this seem attractive.

First, when you say "we," don't you really mean just Mike Bickle?

After all you don't have any meaningful voice or power at IHOP.

IHOP is essentially Bickle's kingdom.

And apparently, according to you it's somehow "worldly" for the overwhelming majority of Protestant churches and ministries to hold their pastors accountable through democratic church government.

Maybe the U.S. Constitution should be changed to be less "worldly" and we should instead have a self annointed dictator and theocracy?

After all, domocratic government isn't specifically mentioned in the bible so why bother with it?

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I don't follow him around to see how he spends it, I don't do that for ministiries either. It's not my money

Interesting.

Again, the overwhelming majority of Protestant churches and ministries disclose detailed financial information regarding all salaries and compensation, but maybe that's "worldly" too.

With followers like you Bickle can do anything he wants at IHOP.

No, I mean "We", me, them, us etc.

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according to you it's somehow "worldly" for the overwhelming majority of Protestant churches and ministries to hold their pastors accountable through democratic church government

Yes, as a matter of fact it is worldly, Here is a definition of democracy; "Democracy describes a series of related forms of government. With origins in ancient Greece, Rome and south Asia." As you can see this did not originate with the church. To go a little deeper asd break down the etymology of the word you get this; The word democracy derives from the ancient Greek demokratia (δημοκρατία), formed from the roots demos (δημος), "people," "[b:2f1fb25cae]the mob[/b:2f1fb25cae], the many" and kratos (κρατος) "rule". Mob rule. Democracy, just one more of the traditions of men.

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Maybe the U.S. Constitution should be changed to be less "worldly" and we should instead have a self annointed dictator and theocracy?

I don't know how you pulled that out of my post. First off, theocracies almost always fail, or end up falling into abuses, Spanish Inquisition, take a gander through John Foxe's Book of Martyrs for some examples, and this is on both sides of the Protestant Catholic coin. Humanly speaking, democracy is about as good as we can get, still you can't legislate righteousness. But on the other hand, New Testament church goverment is clearly outlined in scripture. Basically,

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And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles , second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues. (1 Corinthians 12:28-29)

God appointed, not man. We find numerous examples of people taking everything they had selling it and laying it at the Apostle's feet. If you look in Acts, you will find that all the people had everything in common. I am most definitely not advocating communism, maybe communalism? I digress. Basically man came up with democracy. Now by God's grace we happen to live in a country that uses this form of goverment, conversely it would be no less God's grace were we to live in China, which has a thriving, vibrant church, in spite of the persecution. Always seems to be the case, they kill us, we grow, hmmm. Now here in the US, we get to vote, and I advocate that, scripture tells us that if it is in the power of our hand to do good and we do not do it, for us it is sin, (James 4:17). Still, it was [i:2f1fb25cae]democracy[/i:2f1fb25cae] that made it lawul for women to murder their children before they were born. Interestingly enough, christians are not even to avail themselves of remedies in worldly courts. In fact we are even to endure quietly the plundering of our goods. (1 Corinthians 6:1, Matthew 5:40, Hebrews 10:34) We should not use the world's standards or methods for our discernment, judgement, or even how we operate our households, much less the household of God. As for giving here is the scriptural standard;

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"So let each one give as he purposes in his heart, not grudgingly or of necessity; for God loves a cheerful giver.
8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you, that you, always having all sufficiency in all things, may have an abundance for every good work.
9 As it is written: "He has dispersed abroad, He has given to the poor; His righteousness endures forever."
10 Now may He who supplies seed to the sower, and bread for food, supply and multiply the seed you have sown and increase the fruits of your righteousness,
11 while you are enriched in everything for all liberality, which causes thanksgiving through us to God.
12 For the administration of this service not only supplies the needs of the saints, but also is abounding through many thanksgivings to God,
13 while, through the proof of this ministry, they glorify God for the obedience of your confession to the gospel of Christ, and for your liberal sharing with them and all men,
14 and by their prayer for you, who long for you because of the exceeding grace of God in you.
15 Thanks be to God for His indescribable gift! (2 Corinthians 9:7-15)

As for what the rest of the churches do

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Again, the overwhelming majority of Protestant churches and ministries disclose detailed financial information regarding all salaries and compensation, but maybe that's "worldly" too.

Possibly, but not mandated by scripture, and scripturally, it seems as a principle, unneccesary. I have the Holy Spirit residing in me, as should we all, here is something Isaiah said;

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Although the Lord gives you the bread of adversity and the water of affliction, your teachers will be hidden no more; with your own eyes you will see them. 21 Whether you turn to the right or to the left, your ears will hear a voice behind you, saying, "This is the way; walk in it." (Isaiah 30:20-22)

we are to look for the direction of God, listen for His voice, not some council, or report. We are to search the scriptures ourselves even when we have heard preaching to see if these things we have heard are true. Now just because everybody else is doing it, doesn't make it beneficial or even right, none-the-less, if for you to give, you must see a financial statement, or a disbursement report. That is fine, I don't condemn the practice, far from it. After all you are accountable for what God has given into your hand. Yet, it seems a non-arguement to condemn those who don't. My local body, for example, publishes the previous week's offering Sunday morning, in the Sunday bulletin. IHOP-Atlanta usually announces it during our Sunday evening service as well. Also, it seems right that in order to avoid controversy, it is probably a good idea to do so, still NOT necessary, nor mandated in scripture. Has anybody asked IHOP-KC for these things? I imagine they have them. If only to avoid controversy, Hmmm... Just as an interesting side light on how church goverment actually was chosen;

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Then they all prayed for the right man to be chosen. "O Lord," they said, "you know every heart. Show us which of these men you have chosen 25 as an apostle to replace Judas the traitor in this ministry, for he has deserted us and gone where he belongs." 26 Then they cast lots , and in this way Matthias was chosen and became an apostle with the other eleven. (Acts 1:24-26)

Quick let's go open a casino. (Please you [b:2f1fb25cae]KNOW[/b:2f1fb25cae] that's a joke) Seems interesting, although it does have scriptural precedent

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The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD. (Proverbs 16:33)

OK. Gothcha

You are for democracy, but not regarding your religious life, where your prefer to live under a dictatorship.

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God appointed, not man...look for the direction of God, listen for His voice

Right.

"God appointed" Mike Bickle?

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Fact eh? This thread has been recently concerned with accountability, you know, 'let's see some proof' etc, it somehow evolved into this, if you have read from the beginning, you will see a poster named zeuszor, wandered into an ihop meeting dressed like some sort of hindu/drunken latino and proceeded to annoint people with oil, and promptly got singled out and ejected, which I assume was the reaction he intended for.

Hey, I take exception to that, Chris. It's a Neo-Pentacostal church, and it was at a point in the meeting where everybody was praying and laying hands on everybody else, so I pulled out my bottle of oil and began praying with the people around me. Some guy came up and basically told me that my shirt was offensive to the Spanish-speaking part of the crowd and escorted me out. When I asked him why he was making me leave, he got aggressive and threatened to call the cops. Who cares if I was wearing some thick wooden beads? And my shirt, while crass, was not obscene in Spanish. "Soy borracho y me importa madre" Basically means, "I'm drunk and I don't give a damn."

It's true; I am and I don't! I thought that it was funny, :-)
in the sense of being "drunk in the Spirit". I also have a shirt that has a picture of a man falling down as if plastered with a caption that says "DRUNK in the Spirit" (Eph. 5:18) I didn't think I'd get kicked out, and the whole thing was embarrassing. I didn't mean to create a scene. What difference does it really make, my physical appearance? Whose standards are you living by, the Kingdom's or those of "the world" for which you have such contempt?