Chris,

You have failed to understand that when you call someone a liar that you are attacking him or her and in fact accusing him or her. My intent was to not respond to you in this forum any longer but to quote some scripture for your appreciation “man plans and God purposes”.

My reason for this response is not to convince you of anything because all to often those “caught up” in IHOP and other such movements are all to often blind to the truth of the matter. It requires a certain amount of commitment to get involved in places like IHOP to begin with and that is honorable. That is one of the reasons I bothered putting anything on this forum at all. Many people to, include a lot of young people, could not find what they were looking for in their local church, which is another matter which needs looking into, and began too look at IHOP and thought they could find it there. This is the reason for my post. I wanted to encourage them to look into this matter for themselves not argue with you.

I find it very interesting that you are on staff and if I took your approach to assuming things about other people then it appears that you have been selected to defend the party line and IHOP. Most of the staff that I met where exactly like you and not matter how they were approached they were extremely defensive concerning Mike Bickle or IHOP. I doubt however that you were appointed by anyone other than yourself.

A suggestion for you might be to read Jesse Penn-Lewis, War on the Saints. In this book, which is full of scriptural quotes, she states that to believe that you are not deceived is too be deceived. It is more than interesting that this book was written during the time of Revival and was meant to be a warning about things like familiar spirits prophesying, demonic imitation of the Holy Spirit and much more. Many of the Puritan authors like John Bunyan also were very aware of the ploys of the enemy to overcome the faith by working from within.

E,M. Bounds wrote a book entitled “Satan, His personality, power, and overthrow”. At the turn of the century he wrote that Satan was not trying to destroy the church but rather seeking to inhabit and control it from within. Much of what he wrote when read shows the present church and movements like IHOP. E.M. Bounds was considered a strong proponent of prayer so I thought maybe you might like to read what his praying revealed.

You seem to be so concerned about who I am which is a matter of no actual concern because I am not the one who is being accused rather it is IHOP and the activities of Mike Bickle, Bob Jones, Paul Cain, and others. In FACT these are not accusations but matters of fact by all of their own admission to include Ernie Gruens report. Let me assure you that I am ordained in a Church that is 2000 years old where we have had a 24/7 prayer movement for the same amount of time. We have direct accountability to our elders and must suffer the consequences of sin when revealed. We are not allowed to get by with saying I’m sorry and then continuing as the leader as Mike Bickle has. What about occasions where Mike has brought people to IHOP to minister and then when they left told the group to disregard the teaching that they brought? Whoops!

This is one of the most important and factual points, discernment. How can you spend countless hours for years in prayer and then allow people like Bob Jones and Paul Cain not to mention Kevin Prosch, to walk in sin and never hear about it while in “intimacy” with the Holy Spirit. How could not only Mike but also Rick Joyner and Jack Deere miss it? It would be different if it happened once but many times over a lone period seems to say something important. How could Bob Jones say that he was standing face to face with God and at the same time be walking in Sin? How could the same be true of Paul Cain? And in one case of a fallen worship leader it was known that one of the women that he was with was Mike’s sister.

Now what of the primary concern that I spoke of which is accountability? I noticed that you very carefully skirted answering this and other matters in my first message. In the early church when they was a matter of heresy like questioning the divinity of Jesus there was a council called comprised of all of the Bishops in the Church. This worked well until one Bishop from Rome considered himself above all the others. From then on he made all the rules and when he was found to be wrong and in sin it was no problem because no one could judge him. See the parallel with present corporate church and corporate movements?

How is it possible for IHOP to police, investigate and determine appropriate corrective action for itself? This is one of the reasons why the Orthodox Church looks at movements like yours and can find no “staff” of authority. No true Apostolic authority and certainly no Biblical Government. For a person like yourself who is so concerned with people quoting scripture then it would seem that you would require that your leadership and corporate actions be Biblical.

I’ll give you an example. In our Church there is a prayer movement but it is not detached from the Church but rather one dimension of the local Church. Those who are praying are still subject to the authority placed over them and cannot establish new doctrine or submit instruction they have received while praying without those things being submitted to leadership first. Sounds pretty Biblical to me. Where is that mechanism at with IHOP?

This is why IHOP as had continued sin in the camp. I should say in the movements that Mike Bickle has been the leader of as well.

1. Bob Jones – who said it’s only important to be accurate 66% of the time and committed sexual sin using his gifts to manipulate women.
2. Kevin Prosch who was responsible for the destruction of marriages. It is worthy noting that Kevin went through an elongated restoration and in my opinion has been restored. It is also worthy noting that this went on for a long time under Mike Bickle leadership. All the while prophecy abounded everywhere except concerning sin in the camp.

3. Paul Cain whose acts of homosexuality and drinking went on for years by his own admission. Rick Joyner has admitted that it was a failure of leadership not to admit what they had seen because the leaders were all to focused on Paul’s gifts. Also despite what you call a lie I have talked directly to youth in IHOP who were abused sexually by Paul and one is in fact on staff. After the exposure he was taken by another person on staff to Mike and the matter was buried. I do not use his name because it is none of your business. He was offered counseling and help but refused because IHOP told him to stay away from anyone other than IHOP. A professional Sexual Abuse counselor, with a PHD, who knew this individual told me that for every known instance of sexual abuse there were many, many more instances that were not revealed. For you to state that it only happened once or twice over years is ridiculous. On one occasion a year before the exposure I was on a plane coming from Europe to the US with Paul Cain who had two young men with him, what was that all about?” Years before this incident Kenneth Hagin Sr told Paul about his sin he would not receive help then or confess it. If Kenneth had that kind of discernment, as did others, then what happened at the super spiritual, mystical and prophetic IHOP?


You say these are matters of past activity yet the fallen prophets are still quoted in Mike’s teaching and the Forerunner schools.

Concerning me being on the fringes of your camp you are defiantly wrong. I am not obligated to give names and break confidence with anyone to satisfy you or defend myself. There is more than enough evidence of sin and error to make anyone question becoming apart of IHOP. In particular parents who are spending a lot of money to send their children there.

How much is charged to get “intimate” with God? My last look at it spoke of about $6000 dollars. It is worth mentioning that the apartments the “students” stay inn and are charged for are IHOP. I have also been in them and seen posts from ex student who spoke of the conditions they were housed in as less than favorable.

Coffee in your shop competes with Starbucks. You sell your own tapes and books in your own bookstore, many of which are required for the “school” at very high prices. It is also worth noting that your “anchor store” on the complex is Glad Heart Realty, which sells homes to those who move there at a commission and not free will. In one case I knew a women who bought a home and sold it through them in the same year providing a double commission for Glad Heart. True Mike’s wife owns it but it is also true when he claims that he lives off of very little money that he fails to disclose how much she makes.

This brings us to transparency in financial matters. I can tell you EXACTLY how much the leaders make that I am responsible to, can you? The truth of it is that IHOP is buying building all over the town for its mission base. Meanwhile you say that you speak a number of languages while I met people going to the mission field from IHOP who could not speak the language of the country they were going to, knew nothing of the culture, and even less about the beliefs of the people or political situation of the country. Where is the mission base training in that?

Now lets consider IHOP theology. Others have already addressed much so I won’t bother rehashing it. What is the eschatology that is taught at IHOP Chris? I met people there who told me that while in school they were taught that there is no pre trib rapture and that they would all have to go through the tribulation. If you believe that then why not make it public? Why not just get it into the open? Some things taught there reek of Gnosticism. What is it that you are taught about people that do not agree with you? Be careful here because I have some student tapes and material from IHOP that show what your attitude is about others in the Body.

Finally concerning Andy Cominsky wasn’t he there as little more than a speaker Chris? You are correct to point out that many in the Body suffer from sexual sins problems in the past but you are being less than frank and honest when you say there were no existing problems in the camp.

How many leaders, instructors, or ministry people left IHOP when Paul Cain was exposed?

How many students “drop out” of your schools and why?

How many of them was Mike or any other leader willing to sit down with and address their concerns? I know of two who tried to, and not by hearsay, who were refused. No one addressed their concerns or their parents. Of course they didn’t receive a refund either.

Now the quickest way out of all of this is to call me a liar again and then take the typical IHOP tactic of attacking for several paragraphs and then saying your sorry in two sentences or so. No matter Chris it will not erase things that stand before the Lord nor will it excuse them. A little scripture here might help. When Hophne and Phineas thought they were getting away with it they were only being set up for death. Consider as well Ezekiel 8 and 9. Deuteronomy 13 would also be a good study;
Deuteronomy 13

1If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,

2And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;

3Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

4Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.

5And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.


In closing last week I had a long dialogue with a member of the Twelve Tribes cult. The leader was totally convinced that they were right and that you cannot be saved unless you belong to them. Never mind that they have misspelled in Hebrew the name of Jesus. When I was in IHOP I also heard a lot of singing using the name Jehovah. A Hebrew scholar would know that there is no J in Hebrew and would also know that Jehovah is a contraction of adonai and Yahweh that bears no resemblance to Yod He Vav He, Yahweh. A further study would show that it was rabbis who taught that the exact name was lost. If you can take His name in vain you have a problem.

'You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.'

Which actually reads in the Hebrew;

Thou shalt not take the name of Yahweh thy God in vain; for Yahweh will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain. (Exodus 20:7)

Check it in the Hebrew and see Chris!

My point is this. No matter what fact is shown those within a movement that are not open to questioning will not see when shown truth.

dis·cern (d-sûrn, -zûrn)
v. dis·cerned, dis·cern·ing, dis·cerns
v.tr.
1. To perceive with the eyes or intellect; detect.
2. To recognize or comprehend mentally.
3. To perceive or recognize as being different or distinct; distinguish. See Synonyms at see1.
v.intr.
To perceive differences.

The matter discussed here isn’t for you Chris it is for those who want to look into the matter for themselves and discern the truth. Ernie Gruen’s report was inclusive of the number of churches wrecked, marriages and lives that ended up in fron of counselors and more. When confronted and found out Mike said that much was true. The name of the group changed and supposedly the matter was resolved. The facts are that much never changed. When I was there the Body was so dysfunctional that while proclaiming intimacy with God the vast majority of people in IHOP would not even say hello or try to be intimate with anyone outside of their group. It wasn’t a singular visit I made either Chris it extended over several months and probably the reason I never met you was because of the lack of intimacy that we saw with our own eyes.

Concerning my questioning your “intercessory missionary” calling Chris it wasn’t because I did not know the definition rather it was because I can not find the calling in the Bible. All people are called to intercede and far to often those who I have seen that call themselves intercessors are weird and unbiblical to the extreme. All of us should be interceding for those in other countries and our cities. However it isn’t a job of a calling to be exclusive in. Being a missionary is probably your calling and unfortunately if you would have done that instead of 30 odd years of locksmithing the Church would not have been supporting you. While the leaders like Bickle sit in ease the missionaries are all left to raise their own “support” Last statistical check showed that around 2% fo the money in the Church makes it to the mission field. Try praying Chris concerning your call to the mission field.

You say that you were a lock smith Chris. If you had of been convicted of a crime not once but upon several occasions do you think that you could get hired in your field? Do you think just because you said you were sorry that I would let you work on my business safe? Apply that to the ongoing fiasco to IHOP and ask me why me or anyone else should trust their eternal destiny to those who have been found negligent and complicit in and to sin.

I as well as you would rather not speak of things like this in an open forum but is essential when lack of transparency and exposure provide for true accountability. Much that IHOP has done is good but that does not and should not excuse the lack of accountability for such action. To many lives have been negatively impacted and too many victims not ministered to. I am concerned with those people Chris and with future potential victims and that is why I have taken the time out to respond.

All of our names should be obscured Chris because there is only one Name that matters and it isn’t IHOP. I may have used a screen name when addressing you but my true name is registered on this forum. That is enough and it sure isn’t grounds to attack me for. Now you have been given a lot to quote and address. Try address the matter Chris and leaving out personal attack. When I addressed your ignorance it had nothing to do with you IQ but rather your lack of knowledge of events. I know for a fact that if you are not on the inner circle at IHOP you will not know the truth but rather you will be given an interpretation of truth to fit the need to survive. Few are privy there to what goes on. Even in the inner circle of leadership you must be vetted to be allowed in and one of the criteria is NEVER questioning Mike. Just like in the Twelve Tribes if you do you will be asked to leave or carefully watched.

Again I want you too understand that this matter was reported to the police in Kansas City in detail to include names of the victims. That is the proper place to handle details not on this forum where families and individuals would have their privacy breached without their approval. Just like a lot of other things you assumed about me Chris that was wrong and you failed in your last message to even address you incorrect assumptions but rather made excuses for them. Sounds a bit IHOPish.

Take some time, like a month, Chris and seriously address the truth of the matter Biblically and then respond rather than rushing to type another harsh defense of IHOP at the expense of another person. Some of us are God fearing people who feel a responsibility to others when walking into territory like this. I have nothing to gain by any of this and everything to be attacked over. Do you think that all these people wake up everyday and just decide to get after IHOP? Do you think that we are all demons out to destroy a move like prayer or IHOP? If you do Chris you are sadly mistaken. When Jesus stood in front of the Religious Leaders of His day he wasn't even recognized by them. He however discerned their hearts and called them out for what they were.

Did Mike and others in IHOP start out to get where they have gone? I doubt it. They just missed some of the deception that comes when your foundations are built in sexual sin and false prophets. When there is a bad foundation you need to tear the building down, renounce the bad foundations, remove their teachings and then asked God what He would rebuild if anything. That would be proof of repentance Chris, not I'm sorry for the 57th time and then going on. After awhile it would be a little hard to believe anything from that kind of leadership.

I just finished a lengthy reply to what I see as problems within IHOP, and I lost the entire thing, so let me just hit the high points. The doctrines which are disavowed in the statement of faith and beliefs, which by the way are CLEARLY heretical, most of this has to do with latter rain and dominion theology, these things are NOT taught at IHOP, yet continue to reside in teaching materials, should be purged, revise the materials.
The scripture states that if you give a word from the Lord, and it does not come to pass, you are a FALSE prophet, 66% of the time does not cut it. I would like to see all ties cut with Cain and Jones. As for Ernie Gruen, I have read his report, the WHOLE thing, Ernie Gruen has actually apologized to Bickle, and they are friends, this gleaned from Gruens grandson, who as he put it, confronted the man who confronted Bickle, he really wanted to know, so anyway.... I would like to see the language changed, many of the words in IHOPese are emotionally and culturally charged, have non orthodox connotations, so they have to be explained, this should not be so, a great deal of contoversy stems from that, you should not have to explai yourself constantly because of the language, it should be presented as clear and concise. I think if Bickle clings to ANY association with the men whom he has disavowed, continues to quote them or sell materials where they or their words are lauded, it tears at his credibility.
As for higher ground competing with starbucks, so? Really I cannot see why that matters.
As for IHOP ATL, our bookstore is free, we have a new facility, it has a cafe, it is free too. Onething Atlanta conference, FREE, etc etc. I belive that the the $6000, you mentioned is actually about $2500, it is for a three month internship period, which covers housing, water, electricity, laundry, toilet paper and a short mission trip etc etc Of course that is Atlanta, not KC, as far as I know.
As for your identity, I am not overly concerned with it, and as for the identities of these young people, I never asked, and it is NOBODY's business. I only ask about your identity because you claim to have a great deal of special knowledge of circumstances, anonimity tends to impeach your credence, not necessarily making your claims false. Also knowing firsthand about many of these things... let's not rehash. Personally, who you are is not a concern, you know who I am, or my name anyway, which doesn't really make much of a difference.
All in all, I don't think IHOP is cult, and I drank the kool-aid (weak joke)
Almost all of the controversy stems from pre-IHOP days, I think that the unprofitable roots should be cut. I have always believed in a mid tribulation rapture, I do not think that scripture supports pre or post. I think that most peope get their 'grid' for pre from the scripture that God has not destined us for wrath, THE anti-christ's reign is not the wrath, look at the bowls in revelation. The scripture tells us he will be given power over the saints and even kill them. I think that pre trib theology will leave people dangerously unprepared for the persecution which is coming. I do not see evidence that this was already accomplished under Nero. But all in all, the central focus of pre, mid or post trib, is that Jesus is coming back and I will settle for that, we all agree on this point. This is also too emotionally charged, I ask people in regards to this, and not just this, to examine everything you believe, and ask yourself why you believe it, did you study to find it yourself? Really it's just a good thing to do, so you can be ready to give an answer for the hope in you, and as Paul said to Timothy, study to show yourself a workman approved, rightly dividing the Word of Truth. I am a Berean after all. Let me know if I missed anything, or left anything unanswered, I am not skirting anything, I am very tired and worn and the internet keeps booting me, also I am relying on memory of having read the posts and am not refering back to them as I reply, Listen, Grace and Peace to you all, my heart is very full today, very heavy and overlaid with joy, it's just gripped me today. So let me leave you with that. The keyboard is being problematic and I didn't check spelling, please, no demerits.

Just a few quickies, no I am not in the 'inner circle', did I give that impression? Sorry. I amin a position to see what goes on none-the-less, also I am in ATLANTA, not KC. Although I have tremendous zeal for the House of Prayer, and that includes the many, many througout the earth, I am called to it for thelong haul,with countless leadings from the Lord, and little miracles facilitating my being where I am today, it is most definitely not what I imagined, I might have been teaching English at a church school south of Moscow today, or piloting missionaries in Ecuador and neighboring locales, but doors closed, others opened with such providential leading, I cannot argue against it. As for the calling of intercesor, it is most definitely not unbiblical, Anna being a prime example, the 4000 or so who ministered day and night before God in the tabernacle of David, etc etc. It is my 'primary' vocation, among other things that I am called to, also to be instant in season...
I have never doubted your, nor anyone else's sincerity, although I know Jesus discerned the hearts, we do not, you should know the scriptures on this, so I claim to know no one's heart, but my own, and sometimes not even that very well. Thanks be to God for the Holy Spirit who leads us in all truth.
As for saying you are sorry for the 57th time, I know what you meant, but still look at David etc etc. The one guy who stands out that screwed up and really fell, would be Saul, because he did not take responsibility, juxtapose the stories of Saul and his handling of Agag and David and his response to Nathan after murdering Uriah, which he expands on it in Psalm 51.
I was being quite Frank about Desert Streams, as for folks dropping out, here in Atlanta, I know of one, and he still hangs around on the fringes, and is given as much love as he ever was. I know of a full time staffer who withdrew, and we only see him on occasion, normally Sunday night and sometimes he comes for midnight intercesson. Some people have married and moved away. I do not know of anyone who has left disallusioned or wounded in ATLANTA.
I want to address the rapture again, one comment, it IS taught OPENLY, we just did an 8 week series on it Sunday nights in Encounter meetings open to the public, and the cd's are available in the bookstore, which if you happened to be strapped for cash, are FREE. IHOP is always open to the public anyway.
There are a few things you hit on which are common body wide, such a people going off to missions not speaking the language, Hudson Taylor, Rees Howells etc come to mind, but there are many churchs that send people out on short term trips, and not everyone, in fact vry few are proficient in the local language, I see this as problematic, but not desperate, and it is a body wide phenomena.
As for Glad Heart, I suppose the folks in the realestate office should not eat? What's the point?
What church are you ordained in, just curious, I am assuming you are perhaps Greek Orthodox? Don't mean to offend, just curious. My background is Roman Catholic until I was 15/16, then AG, Foursquare ,Calvary Chapel, Church of God, now just a small non denominational fellowship and I listen to David Wilkerson and the other pastors from Times Square Church. I have not been a denominational hopper (hopper, that's funny)I have moved a lot and went to whatever church was local and reasonably sound in doctrine. I rejected Roman Catholicism a LONG time ago. I am adding links some sites about me if you wish to peruse.
[members.tripod.com]
[myspace.com]
That is pretty much who I am.

Addition to response to Chris;

I had not looked at IHOP's web site for some time and after posting I noticed that Mike is now showing part of his belief's concerning eschatology. At least by doing so one can determine whether it is Biblical or not. It is interesting to see that in the beginning of the explanation he states that he doesn't want this end time view to become divisive. By the end of his message he is calling other people who do not believe in what IHOP believes liars.

His opening statements say that you can be an IHOP member without believing their end time view and that you can question it. To do so would label you as a liar. He states that anyone who believes in the rapture is lazy... These kinds of attitudes and statements are divisive and elitist.

He also does not mention that he believes the Church will go to Israel and their cause a jealousy amongst Jews. There is a whole lot of hidden stuff going on here concerning Petra and many other things that affect Israel. None of this is mentioned.

I also want to comment that from the way you responded concerning knowing much about the Paul Cain matter, the abuse of youth in IHOP and the other things I mentioned that I incorrectly assumed you were from Kansas City. Since you were in Atlanta how is it that you know more about what happened than someone who was there before, during, and after it happened? When you say you do not "buy it" that someone could be privy to inner circle communication then you obviously were not there when I came and do not know what level of access I was given. Yet you state that you "know" that things that were said were lies. Maybe you should consider how many lies and half truths you have been told by those in IHOP. Your info is definetly "second hand" at best and hearsay. My info came directly from various staff personnel and several who were considered inner circle. This happened because of the way that I was received and given access to leaders.

The other matter I want to address is how you addressed the matter of "elders". I wasn't refering to age in anyway. I have not spent the last 30 + years locksmithing but as an ordained Minister of the Gospel. I wasn't ordained by a mail order group but by a main line denomination where there is direct accountability in more ways than you can imagine. But just incase it matters to you I am also your senior by 15 years being 61 years old.

After having backed up and read the thread I concur with the moderator in the lack of accountability at IHOP and Mikes dictatorial position. I also see that no one answered his questions and in fact made excuses and evaded the need for accountability.

Think on this;

Mike, Rick and Jack insisted that Paul Cain be "restored" and that he prescribe to their brand of restoration. When he did not they denounced and exposed him. They continue to refuse to accept his present form of restoration. When Mike failed and make no mistake he did nothing happened. When Ernie Gruen issued his report Mike admitted that much was true. Despite the fact that you say that Ernie retracted the "reprot" Mike still admitted to alot of it. Much damage was done to lives, the Church in Kansas City, Ministries, and individual Churchs.

Who did Mike submit to?

Was he caused to "sit down" and be restored?

Who has oversight over him and could cause this to happen?

Then from Gruens report we move on to all of the other sin that occured under his leadership. There are also matters concerning financial accountability and other matters that have been covered and kept quite but are known about and in fact written about in the local newspapers.

No restoartion for Mike, Rick or Jack. What they prescribe for others does not go for them. A stream of over 20 years of sin, poor leadership, crazy prophecy and nothing. Yet you and others say that "it's all in the past". "He is a changed man".

When?

By what process?

Someone said that the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior.

You and others can continue to deny that IHOP is a church and therefore not subject to the same scrutiny yet every action of IHOP defines it as a church. If it walks like a duck.......

The ancient Temple was where Jesus went and declared "My Fathers house is to be a House of Prayer". Somehow He must of forgotten to mention IHOP. The point here is that the Local Church is the center of everything Apostolic. It was founded by the Apostles with accountability, government, and all that was needed to exist by the Holy Spirit. It was and is to be the center out of which all things pertaining to Godliness proceed. NOWHERE did anyone in the Bible establish a prayer center. Para Church ministries who are outside the purview of Church will always experience the problems you see at IHOP.

Mike and others want to talk about 5 fold ministry yet that ministry has never appeared at IHOP. No where in no instance of Scripture is a single headed ministry found. America has a government of checks and balances between Executive, Judicial, and Legislative. Yet IHOP and other ministries have no checks and balances. In 1 Corinthians when the Pastor did not call down sexual sin a Apsotle showed up and said either correct it or I will come there and deal with the matter. Where is the much accalaimed Apostle at IHOP. Words like apostolic are used all over IHOP's website yet no government of God is present. Read "The Church in the New Teastament" by Kevin Conner and then look at IHOP or any other ministry or Church and see if it lines up with the Word of God. If you don't like boards and voting for Pastors then look and see what the Bible has to say about governance of the Bride.

An example is that when in our Church a man is called into the office of Bishop his election by His peers is simply a confirmation of the calling of God. It is an affirmation that God has called him. Look at the book of Acts and see how it was that before the dispensation of the Holy Spirit a leader was chosen. Once appointed if that leader is ever found to not be conforming to the Word of God their is a Biblical process fro accusation, confirmation of the charge and resulting judgment as well as restoration.

Where is that process at IHOP?

Without it all kinds of things can go on in the "back room" that never make it to the light and people like yourself will NEVER know what truly happened with Paul or any other matter to include finances.

If you and others do not think money is important then remove from the scriptures the whole matter of Annias and Saphira. DEAD!!!! ALL OVER LYING ABOUT MONEY? The next day great fear fell within the Churc. May the Fear of the Lord return in that measure.

Lastly remember that even ONE victim is too many. Here people deny the hurt, pain and confusion os those hurt by and at IHOP. No matter who tells you and others that people's lives have been seriously impacted denial is your only tool. Like people would just make it up. Like the moderator is just fabricating victims or I am just lying. Try spending hours counselling some of these victims, watching them weep, seeing them question God because of this, seeing parents broken because their children are backsliden because of what happened at IHOP. Listening to a woman at IHOP whose home was being used by IHOP to house people who had two lesbians come into here home and seduce her out of over $50,000 dollars while IHOP leadership said they weren'tg a Church and could not address the problem. Finally a local Pastor exposed these two women and IHOP had to address the woman who was ripped off. This is a documented matter and only one of many yet all of you want proof. See hat no accountabilty produces, the power to bury anything and keep it from public scrutiny. People inside IHOP might not want to see this but people who are thinking about going there or sending their children might want to know.

Maybe none of these problems exist in Atlanta Chris but they certainly do in KC. You put much stock in all of your worldly knowledge and acheivements yet it appears that your knowledge of the spiritual and Biblical aspects of these matters is defecient. You say that you are not worldly and consider the "Sermon on the Mount" lifestyle important. Then embrace the truths of that Sermon and apply the Word to everything in your life to include IHOP. If it does not line up with the Word then nail it to the Cross. Make no excuse for yourself or anyone else. Repent and then let God judge the matter. If you do not know the exact truth concerning a matter do not defend it. If you do not know the exact truth concerning someone then do not accuse the person based upon assumption or partial knowledge. Stop seeing things through your eyes and mind and see them through His eyes.

You sure twisted everything you read on IHOP's site, because i know exactly what it says I know the scripture behind it you presented it a such a way that it does not bear any resemblence to what is actually being said, I know you don't have a lot of time to type out responses, so you copy and paste to other websites and blogs, it is clear to me that you have an agenda. Many of our staff go to Kansas City, many were trained there, some are there right now. Our director was trained there and will be speaking at the 1Thing Atlanta conference with many of the leadership from KC. I've met Mike. I know how IHOP operates, I know how WE do things, I know how we deal with things and I have already posted that TWICE. You are still hiding, like I said before it makes no to difference who you are, but you make many allusions to who you are, yet will not even disclose your denomination, your posts are pretty prideful, sensationalist, insulting and extremely skewed. You are posting the same thing elsewhere as well. In the last 30 years, I have attended Bible College, taught school, and traveled around the world among many other things, I have always kept locksmithing as my 'money maker' to pursue other interests, for instance I could teach at poor church schools and there was no need for them to pay me. I have been a street evangelist from 16 years old, I have taught a Sunday school class of 4 and preached before hundreds, and for you information if you had indeed read my posts I DO NOT put stock in worldly wisdom, how ever much I possess, it is still dung compared to the surpassing knowledge of Jesus. And now you go back to the KCP, 17 some odd years ago, and comepletly disavowed, I think I answered how I felt about severing any ties with this group. I also know what happened with Cain refusing restoration, it had nothing to do with preying on minors, AND I DIDN'T GET IT FROM IHOP. Cain wanted to continue without it, and the matter could have been handled quietly, as the SCRIPTURE provides, when he refused correction he was expelled, as the SCRIPTURE provides, eventually he went for it, and is involved in the process even now, I commend him for it, yet I would feel uncomfortable sitting under his ministry, sorry, that's just me. It has already been posted that there is a board that Mike reports to. It is not single headed as you suggest. The ministry you were talking about as well does not exist anymore, and again these guys are not welcome in the pupit there. Mike stood up, repented, and disavowed the crap, PUBLICLY. You claim that no one has ever established a prayer center, King David. Jesus was also quoting from the old testament, this has been around for a while. In fairly recent times (early 1400's) the Moravians at Herrnhut had a prayer meeting that lasted over 100 years, non-stop, from living at their base and seeing the lives these people led came the largest missionary society, and it is still around today (so are the Moravians), after 2 hundred some odd years, as are Wesleyans and Methodists. As a matter of fact the Moravians were the first christian missionaries ever, to many countries, all this sprang from the prayer movement, also didn't you clain your church had 24/7 prayer?.

Quote

When Ernie Gruen issued his report Mike admitted that much was true. Despite the fact that you say that Ernie retracted the "reprot"

thanks for catching my misspelling, I ignored yours, you continue to claim all kinds of knowledge about me and my heart, and you have been wrong evey time, yet yours, it just keeps spilling out. If your case is so strong, and you have no agenda, why do you resort to such sensational and condescending language? But back to the quote, you posted the same post you posted here or should I say 'PASTED' on the site where that information came from.
Good for you and your church, it is good when the leadership gets together and elects other leaders, it's scriptural I have no problem with it, but then again so is casting lots, many non-denoms were started, when someone got the call from God and went out and started preaching and opened a church, after a while when they were established, they went out ordaining other pastors and elders, the churches grew, very soon you had a denomination, what's your point? Well over 2/3's of churches in this country, bible believing non-snake handling, non-koolaid drinking churches. Perhaps we should shut them all down. As for para-church ministries, I suppose that'll be the end of Christian Aviation Fellowships. You are getting more and more into denomination specific doctrine, I should have noticed when you hit on the rapture, in a previous post, that will be fruitless, and I will not discuss it, as for skirting issues, I addressed them, you just skew it to make it sound as if you have something. In addition, you are going to blame what some homosexual women did on IHOP? Many people go looking for an experience, if the experience doesn't fit with their idea of what it should be, or their particular idolatry, it wasn't loud enough, it was too quiet...whatever they will walk away disallusioned, if you come seeking Jesus, you will find Him, that's His promise, if you come seeking experience, you will be disappointed. You claim there are all these things that are being kept hidden, yet you stopped in, were 'received' and they uncovered all the coverups, so you the well received visitor could see it all. You were given 'access' to leadership, anybody walking in the door will get that, with each post you are geting harder and harder to believe, so you study a little, and come back with more, I'm not claiming to know your heart, yet this seems so obvious, you have no transparency. I am going to stop now. I know a little bit more about you.

chris.fitzpatrick:

So after reading through your long posts what you seem to be saying is that other than some relatively minor editing of printed material regarding previously identified "false prophets" still currently distributed by IHOP and maybe a little toning down of Mike Bickle's rhetoric about those men, you don't see anything wrong with IHOP or Bickle.

Is that right?

Please try to be brief and to the point.

And regarding democratic church government, which include bylaws to make Bickle constitutionally accountable or a published, detailed and audited disclosure of IHOP's finances, regarding salaries, expenses and compensation--that's a no-brainer "no" for you.

Right?

According to you it seems like IHOP is pretty much perfect and Mike Bickle is right about almost anything and everything.

Please, try and be brief and concise in answering these:
[b:2c7b382524]
1) Can you think of an instance in which Mike Bickle was in the wrong, or in which somebody's criticism of his behavior was valid?

2) Obviously IHOP is a controversial group to some people. Please tell me in your own words why outsiders tend to be critical of IHOP, and what their main objections are?

3) How do you feel about former members of IHOP? Have you ever sat down to speak with a former member to find out why they left? If not, why not? Does IHOP impose restrictions on communicating with former members?

4) Do you think that there is anything valid about what any of IHOP's critics has to say, or is anybody who questions you simply lying or misinformed? How do you account for all of the disgruntled ex-IHOPpers?? [/b:2c7b382524]

Look, all I know is tht I went to a conference dressed like a hippie type
(I had long hair at the time and was wearing in irreverent shirt with love beads around my neck), started praying with people, and got expelled under threat of having the police called. The people who handled it overreated; they were aggressive, paranoid and judgemental and that's all the impression I needed to have an idea of what that place and it's culture are all about. Judgementalism, pride, snobbery.

I want to thank you Chris for being so Christ like in your responses.

If you spent as much time investigating and discerning IHOP as you claim you have me you would be much more aware.

I never said there were minors but the law requires that if there is even a remote possibility it has to be reported in order to be investigated by someone other than IHOP. The one victim was 18 and barely that when Paul had him over to his house.

The attitude and assumptions you make are clear. It makes it easy to see the fruit of being in IHOP. It is very transparent.

As for seeing my heart I'm really glad that the Lord is the one who sees and not you.

Anyone who doesn't see something wrong with all of the mixing of money and ministry can feel free to associate with IHOP all they want but I think there are people that are a lot more open to the problems with it who will not want to get associated with it.

As for my spelling Chris all of us are not native english speakers and I'm sorry that I can't live up to your level of knowledge and expertise.

I'll leave this matter in the hands of the commentator is very adept at getting to the point.

Now I remember the mean spirit that I experienced at IHOP and why it was so good to leave there. I also will not miss talking with people like yourself who are so puffed up with self knowledge, their accomplishments and their false humility while they attack other people.

Thanks for showing me how transformed into His image you have become.

I know, I know, you are going to tell me that I could have been a witch cursing people and or something, while I was praying with and anointing people. You're going to start telling me about "spiritual warfare" and all that. Personally, I don't believe that a Christian can "have a demon" nor that some sorcerer's "curses" can have any effect on Christ in me, my hope of glory. The "spiritual mapping" stuff and all that that other ''spirit watfare" doctrine they propogate is goofy and totally lacking in Scriptural support.

When I was in the Prayer Room and that whole complex, I went into this library type, reading room sort of thing and I was struck at how all the books on the shelves were about people like William Branham, J.A. Dowie, neo-pentacostal types like that, some Roberts Lairdon (no stranger to sexual sin, he), books on dreams and dream interpretation, prophecy, mystical stuff like that. Lairdon was on sale in the bookstore too. What was lacking were resources outlining clear and simple ways of presenting the Gospel, nothing on salvation, nothing about grace, charity, etc. none of the basics, you know?

One more thing Chris.

Since you are the official investigator on all the blogs and websites you again made a false accusation. I have NEVER posted/pasted anywhere else than here. If that happened someone else copied and pasted but I did not. Once again the accusing spirit that is present manifests always quick to strike at another.

It is an old tactic that when something is wrong one can scream wolf while devouring the sheep.

Thanks again for the attack for it demonstrates the kind of spirit that would take somebody out of a meeting and throw them outside.