Zeuszor:

When there is no answer to specific questions like those above it usually means there is no meaningful accountability.

Bickle seems to run IHOP as he sees fit without checks or balances to his power through independently elected boards or detailed and audited financial reports.

I have only read the first page and don't know Mike Bickle personally, but the idea that something is deeply wrong because a guy pretending to be or appear pro-Hare Krishna got in trouble for trying to anoint and pray or minister to people unannounced is pretty weird.

I mean just what the heck did you expect?

Sure, if (and maybe I should say IF) the Spirit of God was leading you (Zeuszor) to do what you did, then those sensitive to that would recognize God moving, but at the same time, people practicing witchcraft and spell-casting with demonic spirits, and sometimes think they are doing good, do come into meetings like that and there can be harm as a result where someone leads people astray. Charging the church with paranoia is no more credible than charging you with naivety.

From what you say, it sounds like they should have just politely asked you to stop and informed you that due to the many people there, they insituted rules about who could and should minister via the laying on of hands and prayer. But somehow I wonder if you wouldn't have felt that was wrong too?

By the way, I am not saying there isn't often a spirit of control, domination and even witchcraft disguised and promoted as simply submission to spiritual authority. I think a very large portion of the Body of Christ has made the word of God of none effect due to the traditions of man when it comes to spiritual authority, but at the same time, you sound like an intelligent enough person to know that appearing like a cult-member to a church where their ushers and prayer people have been taught not to let people with alternative New Age practices come to impart spiritual things to their people unauthorized, that of course they would view you with suspicion.

rr, what is meaningful accountability?

The Catholic church has a very systematic approach and heirarchy, maybe the best accountability program in the world, and it still didn't do much to stop priests from molesting children.

Baptist churches with a democratic accountability program via their concepts of church polity make the minister accountable to the people, but there are still problems, splits, etc.....maybe less of the type of the Catholic priests though. Presbyterian church polity hasn't stopped scandals and problems there.

Frankly, I am not sure any accountability program is all that significant. Did John the Baptist have a Board?

That's not to say a ministry shouldn't have a Board or one form of church polity or another, but at the same time, the whole idea that some accountability program is more likely to keep them on the straight and narrow is flawed. Heck, Jesus said we should beware of those that seek to bring us before councils.....the Pharisees and Saduccees had a pretty good accountability program.....Hmmm...

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Does IHOP have a democratically elected board voted upon by the general membership that can discipline or fire him?

So I assume you believe Episcopalians, Catholics, Presbyterians and all churches that don't practice a congregational church polity are cults?

Is that what you are saying?

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Is any and all compensation, expenses etc. paid to Bickle disclosed in detail through an independently audited and annually published budget distrubuted to the general membership?

Where in the Bible is this required? I know it's required to report all "compensation" to the IRS, but not sure a published report is required, although I strongly suspect they do publish a financial report of giving and expenditures at least in general, as most churches do.

It seems to me as if you are levying slanderous charges without knowing if they are true.

randman:

See [www.culteducation.com]

Government and finances are not the criteria for defining a destructive cult, though they can expose the totalitarian nature of leadership.

See [www.culteducation.com]

Psychiatrist Robert Jay Lifton lists three criteria and the nature of leadership is only one.

You are attempting to change the subject and avoid answering questions.

1. Episcopalians and Presbyterians have democratic elections, boards and financial transparency through published and audited reports/budgets.

2. The Pope is elected and Catholic parishes, diocese do disclose their finances to contributors. Recently, they have disclosed finances in detail due to litigation.

3. Bickle, unlike the Pope was never elected, and IHOP discloses nothing meaningful about salaries, compensation and expenses through any detailed report.

The overwhelming majority of Protestant churches and ministries, have both democratically elected church government and detailed financial reports. This doesn't make them perfect, just accountable to the membership that provide the money.

The New Testament was written 2,000 years ago and doesn't discuss tax-exempt status, setting up corporations for ministries, evangelist salaries, allowed expense accounts, etc. all of which Bickle and IHOP take advantage of daily.

You are being evasive and not providing significant hard information here.

Either provide a detailed financial report published by IHOP or admit that no such report exists.

Either provide a copy of the IHOP constitution and bylaws that provide for democratic church government or admit that no such provisions exist.

Stop attempting to obfuscate and focus on facts.

I cannot say if there is any financial accountability to the [b:62d0102c0f]general pub[/b:62d0102c0f]lic, at least here at IHOP-Atlanta, we are very closely affiliated with KC though, I don't know if there is a board that can fire Mike, or Billy over here for that matter. First off, ALL of us here, live a closely as we can, a sermon on the mount lifestyle, most likely to give away our last dollar to the guy in front of the filling station, or even (horrors!) the collection plate. The fact that there is or isn't any [b:62d0102c0f][i:62d0102c0f]meaningful[/i:62d0102c0f][/b:62d0102c0f] financial accountability, is going to prove IHOP is a cult? Meaningful to who, this will expose the dynamic of leadership, did it ever occur to anyone that, scripturally, this is not even addressed, secondly, you can't even compile scriptures together to arrive at some principal requiring this, simply put, most of us at IHOP, really do not care about money, we don't worry about it, we have actual [b:62d0102c0f]important[/b:62d0102c0f] things to deal with. please don't accuse me of not answering the question, just in case it was missed, I really don't know, I only qualified it by saying, I don't care, question 2, can I fire Billy?(our EQ of Mike) you bet, I can walk right out the door, and as far as I'm concerned he's fired, still, I ask, find me the scriptures on this. This is the [b:62d0102c0f]Cult[/b:62d0102c0f] Education Forum, by default any individual or any organization is classified as a cult, but the way we define cults is by the final authority of revealed scripture, so therefore, where are the scriptures behind the accusations? Did anyone think to look at our comittment to personal holiness?, our extravagant giving to the poor?, the fact that pretty much this is all volunteer?, myself I personally stand in the night 7 days a week, yeah, christmas too, interceding on behalf of this city, the region and the nation along with the world at large, I don't come here for personal prayer time. Did you consider all the un-cult like activity that goes on here? Hey it's true a little leaven leavens the whole lump, but find the leaven? Beyond all of that, look at the fruit, look at the lives, you say you have talked with many who have been hurt by IHOP, I know [b:62d0102c0f]'one'[/b:62d0102c0f] myself, but it's pretty much over 99% in favor, even among random people I meet on the street. Hey even all the folks that were grumbling went to join David in the wilderness, but you can't make doctrinal judgements on dissenters opinions, nor on non-scriptural rules. They cause divisiveness. Look, if someone in leadership is indeed an aberrant heretic, prophelying, and generally beating the sheep, hey name names, Paul did, but otherwise, be wise.

Chris.Fitzpatrick:

See [www.culteducation.com]

Note the disclaimer.

All groups discussed here are not "cults," some are simply controversial.

IHOP has been called a "cult" and both Bickle and IHOP have a troubled history of complaints, problems and controversy.

Your responses indicate that IHOP has no meaningful financial transparency regarding salaries, compensation and expenses. For example, no one knows what Mike Bickle receives each year and/or has received in over the years from ministry funds.

Your responses also indicate that no one can discipline Bickle and/or hold him accountable for his behavior through boards or bylaws.

The only way you can vote is with your feet, i.e. "walk right out the door." That is, either agree to go along with Bickle and his appointed leaders or leave. Something like a doctrine--"My way or the highway."

Summing up: You work for IHOP "7 days a week...Christmas too," but "don't know" anything regarding its finances and/or details concerning Bickle's accountability and "don't care."

OK.

Sounds a bit like a mindless cult follower without critical thinking.

Please understand that Mike Bickle isn't living a "Sermon on the Mount lifestyle" like Jesus and the disciples. And he has not decided "to join David in the wilderness."

Instead, Bickle lives a very upscale comfortable life.

Actually, I am quite a critical thinker, simply put, and this will probably give you some fuel, what I do is bizzare, I spend long hours, over 1/2 of my daily life, praying to a God I cannot see, I fast, I don't chase down the almighty dollar like the rest of the world, I am not doing some great thing that gets me noticed, I am up all night on my face usually in a mostly empty room. What I do does not make sense so I look very carefully with a critical eye at what I am doing, because I believe there is an urgency of this hour we are in. I am in contact with missionaries, ministries, brothers and sisters from Prague to Fiji, Hawai'i to Seattle, and on and on, we all seem to be hearing the same or similar things; it's crunch time. I really don't worry about money, now if I saw some of our leadership here driving real expensive cars or other outward signs of oppulant living I might take notice, still, yes IHOP-Atlanta has a board that Billy reports to, they sure can fire him, funny though, since we are all volunteer, we all want to be here. If you ask, sure you can get budget. So therefore, there ya have it. I will say that is funny how many folks, churches included are putting so much emphasis on money, must be the spirit of this again, and it's all pretty much how to get more, I honestly do not believe you should be giving to ANY ministry unless God told you to give. A lot of people have different motives for giving, this seed faith doctrine which has been twisted to mean wealth, if I give I'll get more, or they feel bad, peer pressure, rules and regulations, jewish law, but how many people give because they prayerfully sought the Lord on where to give and how much, the crooks out there would not be getting rich if more people did this, but you know, itching ears....prosperity is appealing, I'd hate to be the rich young ruler who went away sorrowful.

I haven't followed this thread, just dropped in and read Chris's last comments, but it strikes me that--about one thing, at least--you are making a bit of a straw man argument. Not everyone who is working for a living and making a salary to support themselves and their families is "worshipping the almighty dollar." There are alternatives other than the extremes of taking a vow of poverty and worshipping the almighty dollar.

Granted, there are people who are too obsessed with money, but it is the [i:a55dae0745]love[/i:a55dae0745] of money--not money itself--that the Bible warns us about.

BTW, I am a believer, and I give to the local church where I am fed spiritually. Nevertheless, I enjoy the fruits of the labor that God has given me to do.

Chris:

You still have not explained who can fire Mike Bickle and how much he receives in total compensation as reported through an IHOP budget or audited financial statement.

Bickle does seem to live quite well and value what personal comforts money can buy, even if you don't.