Granted Calvary Chapel isn't a perfect church and there are issues of accountability as well as issues of uniformity (I find they are ALL very different from church to church!) much of what you've posted here just doesn't add up.

So far you've not given us any facts - just accusations. If someone from Calvary Chapel tried to attack you and your family in any way, WHERE IS THE POLICE REPORT ON THE MATTER?

If there was a shred of TRUTH to these accusations you'd be on one of the daytime TV talk shows that exploit these kinds of claims. Why are you here hiding behind a screen name on a selective message board instead of out in public, in their face?

As for the claim about "Calvary Chapel's involvement in the guns and ammo ( at the Gush Katif kibbutz)", where are the hard core FACTS? So far ALL you've given us here is some kind of "insiders privilaged information" without one shred of factual imformation. If there was anything to this there are Federal and International agencies that would be all over this and it would be BIG news! Any of which would consider it a feather in their hat to take down a few preachers and Calvary Chapel which is what would happen IF this scandalous slander you've posted here was true!

C'mon! Don't just look up and smile at the passing truckers in their 18 wheeler as they roll by, SHOW US YOUR FACTS!

Quote
weblogas
Greetings Fellow Travelers

The common thread through out this posting is Calvary Chapel's consistent rough and or mishandling of members of the Body of Christ.
It has been my experience with this church and continues to be.
I no longer go to big calvary ,However they have still tried to attack myself as well as my family.
(Go figure.)It amazed and saddened me when my own child was singled out because of this. We live in close proximity to that cult.

It should be known that at one time yours truly was just as sold out and deluded as those who remain within this cult.
The pastors of this cult know they have been exposed as a destructive church and rail against the label. Its sort of a How dare you rail by John C.

As it has been pointed out before, Calvary Chapel's involvement in the guns and ammo ( at the Gush Katif kibbutz) while only passive(Instigated by a member of the inner circle ) still indicated this group has strayed far from it's roots.
There are those here who have said they find it hard to believe such things,yet as has been pointed out before this group doesn't like to have the inner dynamics of it's operations exposed to public scrutiny or even general church population scrutiny.
This group still maintains it's facade of being a Bible based church only for one reason, MONEY.
It is the Achilles Heel of their argument. The one thing that can't be soft talked. As illustrated in these archives.

Greetings Fellow Travelers,
WHY? Is the big question?
Nonetheless. All things will be answered. This site is monitored by others who may have an interest in that issue.
It is my understanding that many bushes have been beaten to find the identity of weblogas,even to the point of trying to single out the convenient suspects. Keep in mind that it takes time for any scandal to sink in within the church body. (One need look no farther than the recent Scandals within the Catholic Church.)
"So far you've not given us any facts - just accusations. Again; Those who have an interest in this matter are looking into it. If someone from Calvary Chapel tried to attack you and your family in any way, WHERE IS THE POLICE REPORT ON THE MATTER? "
Come now,.......... Have you not been within the Christian Community long enough( Or maybe not.) to realize that most forms of retribution again an individual or individuals are done in such a way to avoid such things.( With the exception of some of the more deviant cults.)
Those who think that they have power fit into this bromide, "Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely." My Paraphrase) John Bacon.
Weblogas

Facts? Hummm ... and with all due respect, were I to be so bold as to name names, you would clearly be eating your words, for such as the county tax appraisor clearly lists such proofs of the numerous properties owned by a local megachurch CC pastor, who has the mass majority of the congregation believe that he had to borrow money from his father-in-law in order to afford his lowly $200,000 house! Poor thing. The properties he owns, by the way, are vauled at more than two million! How does a lowly pastor afford such grandeur? Which reminds me, speaking of grandeur, the dear pastor isn't here to do the weekend services because he's at the CASTLE, in Austria, which is owned by Calvary Chapel. Wonder where all that money came from to afford such a palatial, not to negate the plane fare to and from -- but then, he's often absent from weekend services, these days, as the director of music (for one) so proudly boasts that Pastor soa nd so is off on yet another weekend jaunt on the yacht of a friend. I'm not the only one who considers the many bold faced lies told from the pulpit, and is left to wonder then, if the yacht is really that of a friend. And what's that you say? An independant firm does the accounting? That doesn't prove anything. Crooked accounting firms are a dime a dozen in sunny South Florida, now, aren't they?

And O, please, give me a break! Some $103,000,000 was pledged by the congregation for the building of that new sanctuary, that isn't going to open, as the pastor recently said, it just isn't needed. Does that mean the people will get their money back? Regardless, it made headline news, recall. But I ask you, was it any real surprise that the congregation of more than 10,000 (at the time) would have pledged so much, when in fact the pastor practically wrote the book on how to get your congregation to give willingly, and for the glory of the Lord, of course -- which doesn't explain the need of the castle or the oceanfront properties, now does it? And how, for weeks and weeks he preached the message of generous giving (Look it up. The Joy of Generous Giving, and you'll see the name, right up there with Rick Warren and Saddleback) even going so far as to say, pretty much, that you're not giving enough if you're holding back something! God wants it all because He gave it all! What sort of nonsense is that, coming from a man who sits on ten times more than most in the church, who gives up nothing, and acquires more and more? God have mercy! When did God ever expect any of the prophets to give up all they had? Were Moses, Abraham, Isaiah, Job poor men? Most certainly not! And what's all this business now (that I am in the process of investigating) about Calvary Chapel paying off the mortgages of their pastors, to not only include their homes but the shopping centers that serve as temporary churches for Calvarites!

You're dog gone RIGHT it's all about the money! If it weren't would there be Starbucks, the cafe, the full scale banquet facility, the bookstore, the thrift store, the private school that costs a king's ransom, and all of the paid concerts that go on and for profit, as is evidenced by all of the wares that go on sale just outside the sanctuary doors! Last look into the Scriptures I saw Jesus turning over the tables in the marketplace church, and it behooves me to so much as refer to Calvary Chapel, then, as a church! It's a money making machine and Jesus is their best selling commodity! Get real, and above all else, GET REAL BEFORE GOD AND READ YOUR BIBLE, and for Pete's sake, don't count on anyone from Calvary to interpret it for you! During one of the last services I attended the illustrious pastor was rambling on about how we don't really have to keep God's law, we need only keep the "jist of the law", much as one can legally drive 50 mph in a 45 mph zone, and that's still in compliance. Is it? . I happen to know of a few good churches that teach the truth, according to the Bible, not according to Calvary Chapel's interpretation of the Bible, and which provide free donuts, bagels and coffee prior to services, and if there's a concert it too is free, and there is no selling going on in the corridors afterwards! Again, get real.
The worst sort of cult is the cult you have to pay to belong to, wouldn't you think?

And speaking of cults ... I could write a book on this one ... My heart so bleeds for the writer who wrote of being in service to Calvary for some 10 years, and without so much as a thank you. We, too, were in that same boat, even as a whole lot of people remain, in service to the building, the institution, on a volunteer basis, and indeed some for years and years, and in the process save the institution a ton of money! Is it any wonder than that Calvary's assets are what they are, when they're receiving so many essential services for free?

Also, as it is that you seem to be a most faithful Calvarite, you know you can't volunteer until you meet the criteria for service, don't you? You have to be indoctinated into the Calvary mindset, its set of core values, Biblical or otherwise, in order to even be a mere greeter! Talk about control! You can't serve in any capacity without first taking their courses and agreeing with every doctrine and theology, and perchance you don't agree, and dare to question the pastorate on some doctrinal matter of his teaching you are not answered, but asked to leave the church entirely! We, who have attended Calvarys have all heard it, "Don't question the pastor!" "Don't touch God's annointed!" I can't begin to count how many I know who have dared to do so only to have been made a mockery and booted out of the church, and it doesn't much matter what the truth is or what the Bible says!

O, but it all looks so good, doesn't it? The masses flocking to the myriad of Calvarys, that resemble entertainment centers more than they do churches, and for all that they offer, the cafes, the coffee houses, the music centers, the book stores, the arcades, skateparks and paintball fields, private schools, their own Bible institute through which they produce their own breed of pastor, and of course the counselling center now too, missing only a grocery store and pharmacy, is it any wonder that they are gobbling up smaller local churches and putting pastors and Sunday school teachers out of work? It's true! Deny it! They preach and teach about how we are to build up the body of Christ while running out of business any church within a 10 mile radius that isn't able to compete. Isn't it also fact that they soliticit the better pastors and private school teachers from established churches and schools, with promises of higher pay, better exposure and of course all of the pomp that Calvary has acquired for itself, over they years, while teaching an easy believism based on but half truths, and the whole while drawing into service those who will, and picking their pockets for profit, be it in the way of throwing their money into the buckets in the back (which is good psychology - we don't ask so of course you'll feel compelled to give) or charging them substantially for that sandwich in the cafe, coffee at Starbucks, books in the book store, that concert, that T-Shirt. You can't imagine the needy people I've seen turned away simply because they had nothing to offer Calvary, such as a single parent of two disabled children who was downright lied to when she was promised a car and was thereafter told that there were no cars available, though the Calvary car lot (donated vehicles to be given to the needy) was full. That's abuse.

In all fairness, however, and to address yet another matter that has plagued the church as of late, regarding the "emerging church", I give full credit to Chuck Smith for his stance against the same, and for his brazen attempt to call his pastors (such as those here, and one in particular) in South Florida to accountablity. He has denounced the emergent movement and did from the beginning, and it has come to my attention that most Calvary Pastors I am familiar with run their congregations as they wish, pretty much separate and apart from Chuck Smith. I commend Mr. Smith for going so far as to say that those Calvarys which chose to go the emergent way would be removed from the organization.

Ah, but yes, it all looks so good doesn't it? Such things as the foster care ministry seems to do such a good service, until you find out that the church receives compensation, from the state, for this service. There's also a $25,000,000 law suit pending against the church because of an alleged sexual assault that occured against a child on Calvary Christian Academy grounds. Look it up. The proofs are out there. The damages are real. And to that I say yet again, God have mercy!

:) Actually, Jesus did go to ... well, not college, but to Temple, where He studied, according to Jewish tradition, and was Bar Mitzvah'd. Did I spell that correctly? Remember how amazed the Rabbi's were (Biblical account) by Him and His knowledge and understanding? Nonetheless, He was a practicing Jew, as the Scriptures well tell us, and it only stands to reason that He would have received such formal instruction, for He is even referred to as "Rabbi". Thanks for this site. It does many a heart good to share.

Blessings.

When it comes to Christianity and church I can say that allot of people who come from an abusive past with a history of addiction or an addictive personality will often use church and christianity in an unhealthy way. There are always going to be the extremists in every church and just because you might know an unstable person who attends a certain church don't blame that church. I listen to the pastors on the radio and I have never heard anything that would make me think cult! I have personally visited a Calvary Chapel and it was not for me but I did not see or feel as if this church I visited was a cult. There are allot of Calvary Chapels out there so it is possible that one or more might have a pastor or a church that is cultish. An unstable person is an unstable person and could make the Green Bay Packers and there coach seem like a cult.

seymour:

It appears that you have not taken the time to read this thread, it's ten pages and counting.

Calvary is a controversial organization with a deeply troubled history.

Many people have been hurt by Calvary pastors.

Attempting to blame those hurt for their own injuries isn't a meaningful response to the bad behavior by leaders that typically hurt them.

See [www.culteducation.com]

There are no meaningful educational requirements for Calvary pastors and they most often have no meaningful accountability to democratically elected church boards and government.

Checks and balances to a pastor's power keeps churchgoers protected and safer. At least that's what the overwhelming majority of Protestant churches have come to understand and practice.

See [www.culteducation.com]

Ten warning signs of a potentially unsafe group/leader.

1. Absolute authoritarianism without meaningful accountability.

2. No tolerance for questions or critical inquiry.

3. No meaningful financial disclosure regarding budget, expenses such as an independently audited financial statement.

4. Unreasonable fear about the outside world, such as impending catastrophe, evil conspiracies and persecutions.

5. There is no legitimate reason to leave, former followers are always wrong in leaving, negative or even evil.

6. Former members often relate the same stories of abuse and reflect a similar pattern of grievances.

7. There are records, books, news articles, or television programs that document the abuses of the group/leader.

8. Followers feel they can never be "good enough".

9. The group/leader is always right.

10. The group/leader is the exclusive means of knowing "truth" or receiving validation, no other process of discovery is really acceptable or credible.

Ten warning signs regarding people involved in/with a potentially unsafe group/leader.

1. Extreme obsessiveness regarding the group/leader resulting in the exclusion of almost every practical consideration.

2. Individual identity, the group, the leader and/or God as distinct and separate categories of existence become increasingly blurred. Instead, in the follower's mind these identities become substantially and increasingly fused--as that person's involvement with the group/leader continues and deepens.

3. Whenever the group/leader is criticized or questioned it is characterized as "persecution".

4. Uncharacteristically stilted and seemingly programmed conversation and mannerisms, cloning of the group/leader in personal behavior.

5. Dependency upon the group/leader for problem solving, solutions, and definitions without meaningful reflective thought. A seeming inability to think independently or analyze situations without group/leader involvement.

6. Hyperactivity centered on the group/leader agenda, which seems to supercede any personal goals or individual interests.

7. A dramatic loss of spontaneity and sense of humor.

8. Increasing isolation from family and old friends unless they demonstrate an interest in the group/leader.

9. Anything the group/leader does can be justified no matter how harsh or harmful.

10. Former followers are at best-considered negative or worse evil and under bad influences. They can not be trusted and personal contact is avoided.

Ten signs of a safe group/leader.

1. A safe group/leader will answer your questions without becoming judgmental and punitive.

2. A safe group/leader will disclose information such as finances and often offer an independently audited financial statement regarding budget and expenses. Safe groups and leaders will tell you more than you want to know.

3. A safe group/leader is often democratic, sharing decision making and encouraging accountability and oversight.

4. A safe group/leader may have disgruntled former followers, but will not vilify, excommunicate and forbid others from associating with them.

5. A safe group/leader will not have a paper trail of overwhelmingly negative records, books, articles and statements about them.

6. A safe group/leader will encourage family communication, community interaction and existing friendships and not feel threatened.

7. A safe group/leader will recognize reasonable boundaries and limitations when dealing with others.

8. A safe group/leader will encourage critical thinking, individual autonomy and feelings of self-esteem.

9. A safe group/leader will admit failings and mistakes and accept constructive criticism and advice.

10. A safe group/leader will not be the only source of knowledge and learning excluding everyone else, but value dialogue and the free exchange of ideas.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/13/2008 08:57PM by rrmoderator.

Mod you are right I have not read the entire thread. My response was directed at the start of this thread to pelicangirl. I know some people who have been hurt by a calvary chapel, I can remember lots of messed up things that have happened in certain ones. But I still do not believe that every calvary chapel is a bad church. about the finances, Whenever I give money to any church or organization I give believing what I believe god instructed me to do in the bible. Yes if my church is misusing the money it is not my fault but there's. I agree that a church needs to be accountable to someone or to disclose there finances with the congregation or a group outside if for anything protecting them self, but on the other hand if they disclosed it with the congregation everyone would have a different opinion on what to do with the money. Thats why the church body is made. When I join a church I trust in god that the people will do right with his money and if I believe that the church is misusing or abusing money I will ask questions and then I will leave the church if I don't like what I see. Most of the time's when a church is corrupt god points them out and allot of people leave or the pastor leaves, but I guess sometimes not. I don't go to calvary chapel its not for me, but I do listen to a few preachers on the radio and I have never heard anything to make me think they were a cult. I know for a fact that when certain pastors messed up, they were asked to step down rightfully so. I will read this thread more to find out about more experience's with Calvary Chapel. I know for a fact that if I asked my pastor about money and where it went I would be given the info.

seymour:

Sorry, but your position actually is not biblical at all.

Read the New Testament and do a study on evangelists, elders and deacons.

They are accountable to other believers.

Also note that Paul rebuked bad leaders publicly in Galatians and disagreed with an apostle (Peter) in Acts.

Jesus said that many would come in his name, but he would not know them.

Beware.

Just trusting God and waiving away any meaningful accountability is neither consistent with the scriptures, nor based upon good common sense.

Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Allowing Calvary pastors to circumvent meaningful accountability to their congregations is asking for trouble.

Your apology that there are good Calvary Chapels doesn't change that.

Protestant churches since the Reformation have learned that democratic government and clergy accountability is a good thing that precludes serious problems, which is why it is overwhelmingly common practice.

I said That is why the church body is made up. A church body consists of elders, deacons ext. That are accountable to the people in the church I agree 100% with you. And even if there was some kind of democratic government do you really think that it is completely not corruptible. I am not saying that you should blindly accept what a pastor tells you. and I think that a church can and should rebuke a leader that is in the wrong. Do you only mean avoiding financial accountability? It seems to me your biggest complaint is about this financial accountability. And to think there is no corruption in the protestant church is crazy. look I agree giving someone power with no accountability is very dangerous, but there have been plenty of Calvary pastors that have been held accountable and have been asked to step down by the church body. When I stated (someone) I was not meaning a single person. I should have been more specific.

Dearest Seymour, please, please, keep this in mind, Lucifer (Satan) bears no pitch fork and he has neither tail nor claws nor jagged teeth. He's like an angel of light, remember, and his intent is to imitate Christ and present to the masses that false image of which the Scriptures tell us we are to be wary, for so clever and crafty is he, in his imitation of Christ, that even the elect would be deceived, if it were possible. Close scrutiny, then, is called for. We are even commanded to be discerning. "Be shrewd as vipers and gentle as lambs," Jesus said. Jesus -- whom I prefer to call Yahushua, WAS NOT COMPLACENT, nor is the Bible.

Ezekiel 34:1 (The Scriptures. I won't write it all out. Read it, okay?) And the word of Yahweh came to me saying, "Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel (any Shepherds, teachers, preachers as is evidenced in various places) prophesy and say to them, 'Thus said the Master Yahweh to the shepherds, "WOE to the shepherds of Israel who have been feeding themselves! Should not the shepherds feed the flock?" 34:4 You have not strengthened the weak nor have you healed the sick, nor bound up the broken, nor brought back the straying, nor sought what was lost, but you have ruled them with might and harshness!"

Again, dearest Seymour, read, just read what your Bible says, and be discerning. I walk through the corridors and am sickened by all of the fanfare such as the cafe and coffee house and banquet hall and concert hall and -- all meant to entertain and cater to the worldly desires of man and I wonder such things as the will/desire of God, and just how many widows and orphans and homeless helpless people the sound system and light show would have fed. I wonder when the church resembles a Disneyland attraction, drawing people in, "Where was Jesus? What did HE tell us to do?" I know where He was ... He was where He was needed, in the streets and the gutters, in and among the sick, the poor, the sinners, like me, getting His hands dirty and offering them the hope of nothing other than Himself, and He did so without all of the pomp and circumstance, and I ponder deeply that which He said, "Come, follow Me!"

Follow Him to where and to what? To Starbucks after having heard the comedian pastor twist yet another passage of Scripture? Or to the bookstore, right after service where I might purchase a video or audio of the sermon for a mere five bucks, having stood in line for more than an hour? To quote the apostle Paul, indeed, "MAY IT NEVER BE SO!" And to remember Christ who turned over the tables in the marketplace church, perhaps even bellowing, "My Father's house shall be a house of prayer, and you have made it a den of thieves and robbers!" Selling your wares. O but how the church (and in particular Calvary, here, attempts to rationalize that one away stating that the end justifies the means! So stating that if it takes a paintball field, a skatepark, a Starbucks, a theater, and big name performers to draw the masses in, so be it! It's all for the cause of Christ! Really? Is that what Jesus did? Is that what He meant by come follow me? Is this the church He referred to when He said to Peter, "Upon this Rock I shall build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it!" And remember now what is written in Ezekiel, "WOE to the shepherds who have been feeding themselves!"

Remember, if one holds himself up as a teacher or preacher, "Shepherd" if you will, the Bible (God) holds him to a higher standard of Biblical truth and compliance, and warns that greater will the punishment be upon the Shepherds (preachers and teachers) who fail to tend properly to their flocks (congregations). I fear for the fates of many a pastor who will one day stand before God expecting tremendous accolades, but as rr so correctly stated will receive a rebuke instead.

Mathew 7: 21: "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Master, Master,' shall enter into the reign of the heavens, but he who is doing the desire of My Father in the heavens. (22) "Many shall say to Me in that day, 'Master, Master, have we not prophesied in Your name, and cast out demons in Your Name, and done many mighty works in Your Name?' (23) "And then I shall declare to them, "I never knew you, depart from Me..." The Scriptures, simply, and understand that these were people who KNEW the Lord, but He knew them not.

Please forgive me for the length of this, but my heart is just crying so for so many, like a dear woman and her five children who were put out of the church (Calvary) and even into the street, regardless of the fact that she and her husband helped to establish the church from way back to its very beginning, when there weren't but 20 or so people in attendance. Her husband made a great deal of money and always faithfully tithed and contributed greatly, over the years, toward the new buildings. They saw the church go from a handful to many, many thousands, and were right there offering monetary support, as well as the husband held a teaching position. Just a few years back, however, the husband was arrested and sent to Federal prison for his dealings in fraud and extortion. His wife had no idea that he was making his millions illegally, and was charged with no crime. In the process of the investigations into his financial dealings they lost everything, and I do mean everything! Their house, the cars, the dinnerware, everything, and eventually the woman and their five kids ended up in the street. Having always supported the church, and for more than 20 long years, and the church always having benefited greatly by them, she turned to the church for help, and the church showed her the door stating that it wouldn't do for them to help her because it might mar their image. IMAGE. They gave her $50.00, and sent her away, though she and her husband had contributed tens of thousands, and of course it didn't matter in least to Calvary that they had built so much of the church on dirty money. That issue was never addressed, but I've thought of it every now and then when I look upon the church and wonder if King Solomon's Temple looked as such, and just how many needy people could have benefited from the cost of it, and I wonder just where the church's forgiveness for this woman who gave so much, to them, is. (Please forgive me for rambling. This is healing for me).

Even now there is a missionary who has been presenting the gospel to such as the homeless, downtown, here, and the church has insisted he stop preaching in the street!!! But wasn't that where Jesus was? They've ostracized (humiliated, degraded and even lied about him) terribly, terribly! But praise God, he continues and many have joined him.

I have come to conclude, over the years, that the church really isn't for typical folk. It's more for the sinless (and they decide for themselves what is sin and what is not, mind you, according to their personal likes and dislikes sometimes) elite who have much to contribute to the Italian tile and the marble columns and the fiber optics (too many things to list). The pastor's two million dollars worth of properties and his exclusive vacations -- why isn't he like my kid's pediatrician who donates his time, talents and money by spending several weeks out of the year in the jungles of South America and the poverty stricken villages in Viet Nam, giving back so much of what he has been given? Why are his jaunts to pastoral conferences in exclusive hotels where he instructs other pastors on how to coax their congregations into giving more and gladly? Why? Why isn't he like Dr. D. James Kennedy, whom I sooo adored, and who truly made a difference, not only in this community, but in all of these United States of America ... why?

Don't be duped. Look around you. God knows I've seen a whole lot of people running around trying to serve the pastorate or the church building, like chickens with their heads cut off, and without any understanding that it's not Christ they are serving, but the corporate institution far more than the quoted "body of Christ", and it seems as though in their service to the body they are separate and apart from the same. Have you not ever heard the song by Larnel Harris, "But you're too busy .. busy trying to serve Me ... but how can you serve Me, when your spirits empty ..." I watched a dear friend of mine push a service cart laden with the finest serving dishes, through the corridors on her way to serve the pastor who was meeting with a celebrity. My friend was donned in the chef's garb, complete with hat, and was too rushed to pause, and I wondered ... was he (the pastor) so much more worthy than Christ? Sigh.

Anyway, Seymour, know that YOU, all by yourself or in a crowd are the body of Christ! YOU, alone, all by yourself are His hands, His feet, His mouth, His heart, and this is why you must know Him and what it is that HE said you are to do, and what it means when He says, "Come, follow me." And with any luck (smile) you find people who are on the same path as you.

Many blessing, Seymour. I will be thinking of you.