Calvary Chapel Cult??
Posted by:
ohliger
()
Date: July 19, 2007 01:31AM
Quote
rrmoderator
This isn't a debate about my role as a moderator, the bible or belief.
This is a thread about Calvary Chapel.
ohliger--if you wish to worship under pastors that operate what can be seen as a form of dictatorship without any meaningful accountability to the congregants that's your choice.
The point is how Calvary is run.
And you have admitted it isn't run democratically, like the overwhelming majority of Protestant churches.
And that there are no educational requirements for its pastors like Bob.
I have never stated that Calvary is a "cult."
See [www.culteducation.com]
Calvary is a church with a deeply troubled history of serious problems and complaints, as reflected in the press.
It's founder Chuck Smith is a controversial figure.
It is neither "vain" nor "legalistic" to point out the probability that perhaps Calvary wouldn't have so many problems if its leaders had more accountability.
Yes, I agree that the possibility exists for trouble. But the same goes with any church regardless of church governmental controls. I'm not even going to go into the Catholic problems that recently came to a settlement. However, from personal experience growing up in a Baptist Church in the Bible Belt, I have seen horrible things done in the name of Christianity. I have seen boards influenced by wives and other members with a grudge to bare. I have seen an innocent associate pastor asked to leave b/c one trouble-causing wife (who's husband was on the board) didn't like him. I have seen worse control come from those boards and dictate elitism and undeserving scorn on some members.
Calvary Chapel Cult??
Posted by:
ohliger
()
Date: July 19, 2007 02:54AM
btw:
Today's newspaper...
South Florida: Two local churches make magazine poll's top 50 list
July 18, 2007
Two South Florida churches are among the 50 most influential in America, according to a national Christian magazine that announced the results of a poll on Monday.
The two are Calvary Chapel of Fort Lauderdale, which has attendance of about 20,000 a week; and Christ Fellowship of Palm Beach Gardens, attended by 12,000 weekly. They're also the largest congregations in South Florida.
The monthly magazine, The Church Report, based in Scottsdale, Ariz., has a circulation of 50,000. It developed the list from a poll of 2,000 pastors.
Today's newspaper...
South Florida: Two local churches make magazine poll's top 50 list
July 18, 2007
Two South Florida churches are among the 50 most influential in America, according to a national Christian magazine that announced the results of a poll on Monday.
The two are Calvary Chapel of Fort Lauderdale, which has attendance of about 20,000 a week; and Christ Fellowship of Palm Beach Gardens, attended by 12,000 weekly. They're also the largest congregations in South Florida.
The monthly magazine, The Church Report, based in Scottsdale, Ariz., has a circulation of 50,000. It developed the list from a poll of 2,000 pastors.
Calvary Chapel Cult??
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: July 19, 2007 03:21AM
ohliger:
This message board is not for preaching.
And this thread is not about the bible, or what you and Elena believe or don't believe.
Let's all stay on topic.
The topic is "Calvary Chapel."
You are attempting to change the subject.
The fact that a Calvary Chapel of Fort Lauderdale has 20,000 a week means nothing.
The point is what type of accountability do its pastors actually have through a church constitution and bylaws?
How are the sheep protected from would-be wolves, if they appear in sheep's clothing?
Most churches don't simply rely upon trust.
And as you have admitted here and explained Calvary pastors have very little meaningful accountability regarding their power or control of money.
Frankly, your other comments are essentially attempts to rationalize the kind of control Calvary pastors often exercise.
I know you may find this hard to get your head around, but democracy and accountability have proven to be good things. It keeps people honest and protects those involved.
The authors of the New Testament did not live under democratic government and existed within a society composed of kings, despots and where slavery was widely practiced.
That was 2,000 years ago and we are discussing Calvary Chapel in the 21st Century, not the early beginnings of the Christian Church in the First Century.
Let's look at some of the trouble Calvary has recently been in during the past few years.
"A Twin Falls pastor has accused his mentor of funding a sexual harassment case against him to gain control over one of the nation's largest non-commercial satellite radio networks."
See [www.culteducation.com]
"Amid accusations over sex, money and control, Pastor Chuck Smith is about to surrender much of the evangelical radio empire to a man he calls morally unfit for ministry"
See [www.culteducation.com]
"Chuck Smith and Calvary Chapel face an uncertain future."
See [www.culteducation.com]
"Father, Son and Holy Rift"
See [www.culteducation.com]
"Embattled Pastor to Step Down...14,000-member church"
See [www.culteducation.com]
"Web Site Calls for the Return of Calvary Pastor Pete Nelson"
See [www.culteducation.com]
"Calvary Chapel Congregation Stunned After Announcement"
See [www.culteducation.com]
"Church elder's title stripped following published excerpts"
See [www.culteducation.com]
"Orange County church's former leader says false rumors of infidelity, molestation were spread about him. Officials deny claims."
See [www.culteducation.com]
As this press reflects, Calvary Churches have had very serious problems.
Pastor Chuck has ruled over his sheep much like a king and other pastors have established something like feudel kingdoms under his umbrella.
Calvary remains very controversial, as lawsuits, bad press and complaints have swirled around the organization and its affiliates.
This message board is not for preaching.
And this thread is not about the bible, or what you and Elena believe or don't believe.
Let's all stay on topic.
The topic is "Calvary Chapel."
You are attempting to change the subject.
The fact that a Calvary Chapel of Fort Lauderdale has 20,000 a week means nothing.
The point is what type of accountability do its pastors actually have through a church constitution and bylaws?
How are the sheep protected from would-be wolves, if they appear in sheep's clothing?
Most churches don't simply rely upon trust.
And as you have admitted here and explained Calvary pastors have very little meaningful accountability regarding their power or control of money.
Frankly, your other comments are essentially attempts to rationalize the kind of control Calvary pastors often exercise.
I know you may find this hard to get your head around, but democracy and accountability have proven to be good things. It keeps people honest and protects those involved.
The authors of the New Testament did not live under democratic government and existed within a society composed of kings, despots and where slavery was widely practiced.
That was 2,000 years ago and we are discussing Calvary Chapel in the 21st Century, not the early beginnings of the Christian Church in the First Century.
Let's look at some of the trouble Calvary has recently been in during the past few years.
"A Twin Falls pastor has accused his mentor of funding a sexual harassment case against him to gain control over one of the nation's largest non-commercial satellite radio networks."
See [www.culteducation.com]
"Amid accusations over sex, money and control, Pastor Chuck Smith is about to surrender much of the evangelical radio empire to a man he calls morally unfit for ministry"
See [www.culteducation.com]
"Chuck Smith and Calvary Chapel face an uncertain future."
See [www.culteducation.com]
"Father, Son and Holy Rift"
See [www.culteducation.com]
"Embattled Pastor to Step Down...14,000-member church"
See [www.culteducation.com]
"Web Site Calls for the Return of Calvary Pastor Pete Nelson"
See [www.culteducation.com]
"Calvary Chapel Congregation Stunned After Announcement"
See [www.culteducation.com]
"Church elder's title stripped following published excerpts"
See [www.culteducation.com]
"Orange County church's former leader says false rumors of infidelity, molestation were spread about him. Officials deny claims."
See [www.culteducation.com]
As this press reflects, Calvary Churches have had very serious problems.
Pastor Chuck has ruled over his sheep much like a king and other pastors have established something like feudel kingdoms under his umbrella.
Calvary remains very controversial, as lawsuits, bad press and complaints have swirled around the organization and its affiliates.
Calvary Chapel Cult??
Posted by:
ohliger
()
Date: July 19, 2007 04:06AM
As I've stated many times before, no man is perfect. And someone who is in the mainstream and doing God's work has put themselves on the frontline not only for lies & slander, but also for temptations.
I'm sure that if I do a web search on ANY demoninational church, whether Baptist, Presbyterian, or likewise, I can come up with 100 times as many articles about: Ministers/Preachers accused of things (whether false or not), and church impropriety.
Your arguement is mute.
I'm done bantering with you. Especially now that I have seen your heart, not towards God, but towards your own legalistic opinions. I feel guinuinely sorry for people that may have been turned away from seeking God based on your views. In my estimation, unless you follow the Bible, you are not an authority here and have no right being moderator of this forum.
I'm sure that if I do a web search on ANY demoninational church, whether Baptist, Presbyterian, or likewise, I can come up with 100 times as many articles about: Ministers/Preachers accused of things (whether false or not), and church impropriety.
Your arguement is mute.
I'm done bantering with you. Especially now that I have seen your heart, not towards God, but towards your own legalistic opinions. I feel guinuinely sorry for people that may have been turned away from seeking God based on your views. In my estimation, unless you follow the Bible, you are not an authority here and have no right being moderator of this forum.
Calvary Chapel Cult??
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: July 19, 2007 04:20AM
ohliger:
Again, you are attempting to change the subject and essentially obfuscate the real issues whenever you can.
Apparently you are not here for any real dialog, but rather to offer apologies for Calvary Chapel.
You are right "no man is perfect" and there are "temptations," so that's why the checks and balances provided by democratic church government are so important. They protect both the congregation and the pastor through meaingful accountability.
Rather than being "legalistic," which typically denotes authoritarian control, democratic church government and financial transparency instead provides for power sharing in a way that avoids the pitfalls of anyone exercising dictatorial rule.
This is not a "mute" point, but rather represents the overwhelming majority of Protestant churches thriving in America today.
Very few Christians would agree to live under the kind of power structure created by Chuck Smith and his pastors. Calvary represents a distinct minority in this sense amongst evangelicals and Protestants generally.
FYI--the vast majority of churches in America don't have the same pattern of problems, complaints and bad press that Calvary has experienced, which means no one need be "turned away from seeking God" even if they are turned off by Calvary Chapel.
Again, you are attempting to change the subject and essentially obfuscate the real issues whenever you can.
Apparently you are not here for any real dialog, but rather to offer apologies for Calvary Chapel.
You are right "no man is perfect" and there are "temptations," so that's why the checks and balances provided by democratic church government are so important. They protect both the congregation and the pastor through meaingful accountability.
Rather than being "legalistic," which typically denotes authoritarian control, democratic church government and financial transparency instead provides for power sharing in a way that avoids the pitfalls of anyone exercising dictatorial rule.
This is not a "mute" point, but rather represents the overwhelming majority of Protestant churches thriving in America today.
Very few Christians would agree to live under the kind of power structure created by Chuck Smith and his pastors. Calvary represents a distinct minority in this sense amongst evangelicals and Protestants generally.
FYI--the vast majority of churches in America don't have the same pattern of problems, complaints and bad press that Calvary has experienced, which means no one need be "turned away from seeking God" even if they are turned off by Calvary Chapel.
Calvary Chapel Cult??
Posted by:
malleeboy
()
Date: July 19, 2007 06:45AM
ohliger:
Quote: The congregational form of church government is an American invention and appeals to our American sense of democracy.
That is a factual error, congregational churches were present in England before the US was founded and before England could any real sense be called a democracy. They usually used the term Independents in the earliest of times.
As the saying goes, "Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely."
Peoples religious convictions play a big part in peoples world view, this in turn effects their views on how society should be run. It is not a surprising correlation that countries that have a higher percentage of people in congregationally run religious/philosophical organizations have on the whole and over a long period maintained more freedoms and liberties then countries where the converse is true.
In many ways the truth is reverse to your quoted statement. Congregational involvement in religious organization predates any serious attempts at a state level democracy and was a catalyst to the creation of the anglo-celtic democratic traditions. People adopted congregational ideas for their religious institutions and then began agitating for the changes to the state.
For all their present failings, you would have to be blind to providence not to see how the democratic instinct has impacted the countries in which it has had the greatest hold. (A simple measure would be for countries with over 20 million people the list in order of GDP per person is US, UK, Canada and Australia.)
Since the democratic instinct began in the churches, if you believe in God, it is hard not to see how this might have been a blessing from God. If you have any sense of God moving providentially through human history to mitigate our worst transgressions, then clearly the move to congregationlize churches has clearly come from his hand.
Quote: The congregational form of church government is an American invention and appeals to our American sense of democracy.
That is a factual error, congregational churches were present in England before the US was founded and before England could any real sense be called a democracy. They usually used the term Independents in the earliest of times.
As the saying goes, "Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely."
Peoples religious convictions play a big part in peoples world view, this in turn effects their views on how society should be run. It is not a surprising correlation that countries that have a higher percentage of people in congregationally run religious/philosophical organizations have on the whole and over a long period maintained more freedoms and liberties then countries where the converse is true.
In many ways the truth is reverse to your quoted statement. Congregational involvement in religious organization predates any serious attempts at a state level democracy and was a catalyst to the creation of the anglo-celtic democratic traditions. People adopted congregational ideas for their religious institutions and then began agitating for the changes to the state.
For all their present failings, you would have to be blind to providence not to see how the democratic instinct has impacted the countries in which it has had the greatest hold. (A simple measure would be for countries with over 20 million people the list in order of GDP per person is US, UK, Canada and Australia.)
Since the democratic instinct began in the churches, if you believe in God, it is hard not to see how this might have been a blessing from God. If you have any sense of God moving providentially through human history to mitigate our worst transgressions, then clearly the move to congregationlize churches has clearly come from his hand.
Calvary Chapel Cult??
Posted by:
OrangeRev
()
Date: July 23, 2007 10:46PM
I was reading this thread because I was searching for some more information on the claims that Calvary Chapel was a "cult" ... after reading the dialog between ohliger and rrmoderator, I am compelled to respond.
First, I agree with rrmoderator's call for accountability in a church. Christian leadership tends to become isolated unless there is some meaningful accountability structure in place ... temptations, pride, etc happen to Christian leadership ... and without accountability there is a possibility that the church or movement can wander toward cultish practices or teachings.
Apparently, rrmoderator is simply questioning whether or not Calvary chapel has a meaningful accountability structure in place, because there appears to be some secrecy ... nothing appears to be publicly available on their accountability.
But, in articulating this concern, rrmoderator suggested (whether intentional or not) that accountability can [u:c5ed94540a]only[/u:c5ed94540a] be through (a) financial disclosures, (b) seminary training (which is a period of testing one's theology) and (c) a democratically elected oversight group.
Well, those are some components of accountability, but they are by no means the only ways that accountability can be done. [i:c5ed94540a](For example, the church I lead - I'm a pastor - has a strong accountability system for me, the church, and finances ... but we have specifically eliminated the democratic aspect of church because of some theological concerns).[/i:c5ed94540a]
[b:c5ed94540a]
Still, if someone knows of the accountability structure of Calvary Chapel, that would be a helpful addition to this thread.[/b:c5ed94540a]
(By the way, a recent survey I saw indicated that MOST Christian pastors in America [u:c5ed94540a]do not[/u:c5ed94540a] have seminary training).
First, I agree with rrmoderator's call for accountability in a church. Christian leadership tends to become isolated unless there is some meaningful accountability structure in place ... temptations, pride, etc happen to Christian leadership ... and without accountability there is a possibility that the church or movement can wander toward cultish practices or teachings.
Apparently, rrmoderator is simply questioning whether or not Calvary chapel has a meaningful accountability structure in place, because there appears to be some secrecy ... nothing appears to be publicly available on their accountability.
But, in articulating this concern, rrmoderator suggested (whether intentional or not) that accountability can [u:c5ed94540a]only[/u:c5ed94540a] be through (a) financial disclosures, (b) seminary training (which is a period of testing one's theology) and (c) a democratically elected oversight group.
Well, those are some components of accountability, but they are by no means the only ways that accountability can be done. [i:c5ed94540a](For example, the church I lead - I'm a pastor - has a strong accountability system for me, the church, and finances ... but we have specifically eliminated the democratic aspect of church because of some theological concerns).[/i:c5ed94540a]
[b:c5ed94540a]
Still, if someone knows of the accountability structure of Calvary Chapel, that would be a helpful addition to this thread.[/b:c5ed94540a]
(By the way, a recent survey I saw indicated that MOST Christian pastors in America [u:c5ed94540a]do not[/u:c5ed94540a] have seminary training).
Calvary Chapel Cult??
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: July 23, 2007 10:58PM
OrangeRev:
The most common method of accountability is a democratically elected church board. There is also often denominational accountability beyond that level.
What accountability do you have specifically?
The majority of Christian pastors in the US have attended and graduated from an accredited college and many have gone on to seminary for a post-graduate degree.
Most of the major denominations have educational requirements for ordination.
Please cite and link any study or suvey that states otherwise.
What church organization are you attached to?
The most common method of accountability is a democratically elected church board. There is also often denominational accountability beyond that level.
What accountability do you have specifically?
The majority of Christian pastors in the US have attended and graduated from an accredited college and many have gone on to seminary for a post-graduate degree.
Most of the major denominations have educational requirements for ordination.
Please cite and link any study or suvey that states otherwise.
What church organization are you attached to?
Calvary Chapel Cult??
Posted by:
OrangeRev
()
Date: July 24, 2007 01:22PM
Quote
rrmoderator
What church organization are you attached to? What accountability do you have specifically?
Church of God (Anderson).
My accountability is four-fold.
[list:fe33d83c8d][*:fe33d83c8d]Ordination is primarily based upon spiritual call ... this call, Biblical knowledge, and theology are evaluated over a 2-5 year period in full-time mentoring relationships (unless there is some reason for expediency). This evaluation time is used for theological accountability.
[*:fe33d83c8d]Once ordained, a local "district" holds my credentials and can pull these at any time that I am found to be non-orthodox in teaching, or suffer worldly failures that compromise the Gospel. I am required to be in relationship with other local pastors affiliated with this district (although the relationships are, admittedly, not as strong as they should be).
[*:fe33d83c8d]My local congregation is independent, and it doesn't fall neatly into any of the three major forms of church government (Episcopal, Presbyterian, or Congregational). We have an Eldership which is responsible for the overall spiritual health of the church, the members, and me (for example, they monitor my theological teaching). The pastor is also an elder ... thus the pastor is not over the elders, and the elders are not over the pastor but all are under Christ. However, if the non-pastor Elders begin to have problems with teaching, they know to report their concerns to the local district for further investigation. I might add two things: (a) our Elders are not elected by the congregation, but Elders are recognized based upon their spiritual maturity as lived out in the community; and (b) Elders are [b:fe33d83c8d]only responsible[/b:fe33d83c8d] for spiritual accountability and discernment - e.g. they do not manage the church or oversee its finances.
[*:fe33d83c8d]I have a 1-on-1 accountability partner to question my moral behavior and "appearances", such as asking me the standard accountability questions.[/list:u:fe33d83c8d]
Quote
rrmoderator
The majority of Christian pastors in the US have attended and graduated from an accredited college and many have gone on to seminary for a post-graduate degree.
Please cite and link any study or suvey that states otherwise.
My original comment was based on seminary training, and not just general college work. It took me some time to remember what I had seen. It was a paragraph in "ChurchNext" (Eddie Gibbs, Fuller Theological Seminary). On pages 92 and 93 he writes:
"There is a serious decline in the number of students taking the Master of Divinity degree, which has long been regarded in academic circles and denominational hierarchies as the professional degree for ordained ministry. The reality is that the majority of pastors serving churches in the United States do not have a Master of Divinity degree. It is not required by some of the largest denominations. Nor do independent churches, megachurches that increasingly train their own staff members, and the fast-growing "new apostolic" movements require it."
That clarifies my original recollection.
Calvary Chapel Cult??
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: July 24, 2007 07:41PM
OrangeRev:
This thread is about Calvary Chapel not the Church of God or the issue of accountability, other than accountability at Calvary.
However, you have raised some interesting points.
Apparently, Church of God doesn't have meaningful accountability through democratically elected church boards.
You have also not stated that the COG requires its churches to have published and independently audited financial reports, which disclose in detail all salaries, compensation and expenses.
So it seems there is no mandated and meaningful financial transparency at COG.
You also describe "elders" that are not elected and have very limited powers, i.e. they don't control church money and can only complain to the district rather than take direct action within the church.
Who selects these elders? The pastor?
Who controls church money? The pastor?
Also it seems that a college degree is not required to become a Church of God pastor, which is typically the case for the overwhelming majority of both Protestant pastors and Catholic priests.
If you wish to continue this exchange please go to this new thread.
See [board.culteducation.com]
This thread is about Calvary Chapel not the Church of God or the issue of accountability, other than accountability at Calvary.
However, you have raised some interesting points.
Apparently, Church of God doesn't have meaningful accountability through democratically elected church boards.
You have also not stated that the COG requires its churches to have published and independently audited financial reports, which disclose in detail all salaries, compensation and expenses.
So it seems there is no mandated and meaningful financial transparency at COG.
You also describe "elders" that are not elected and have very limited powers, i.e. they don't control church money and can only complain to the district rather than take direct action within the church.
Who selects these elders? The pastor?
Who controls church money? The pastor?
Also it seems that a college degree is not required to become a Church of God pastor, which is typically the case for the overwhelming majority of both Protestant pastors and Catholic priests.
If you wish to continue this exchange please go to this new thread.
See [board.culteducation.com]
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