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rrmoderator
eyerishroses:

Lutheran and Pentecostal Assemblies of God ministers have accountability to their denominations, educational requirements and are accountable to their congregations through boards and financial transparency.

Calvary pastors have none of these standards or safeguards, which is probably a major reason why Calvary Chapels continue to have so many problems.

If you wish to attend a church where the pastor has no meaningful accountability or educational requirements to be ordained that's your choice.

But the overwhelming majority of Protestants do not.

The congregational form of church government is an American invention and appeals to our American sense of democracy. Basically, the congregation as a whole makes all decisions in these churches by voting on matters of importance and appointing committees from its ranks to run the daily operation of the church. Most Congregational, Baptist, Pentecostal, Brethren, and non-denominational churches are organized in this fashion. The congregation votes on hiring a pastor, votes on how to spend the money, and on anything else of importance. Although democratic people like the idea, congregational forms of church government often wind up at best causing the pastor to be directed by the sheep he is supposed to lead, and at worst reducing the pastor to a hireling.

The Episcopal form of church government, used by Episcopalian, Anglican, Catholic, Orthodox, and Methodist churches (to name a few) is controlled by a church hierarchy which may have differing names. Basically, there is a bishop, or someone of similar stature if called by a different name, who oversees the churches, appoints pastors to pulpits, sets policy, and guides the vision of the local congregations. Unfortunately, this style of government, which grew out of European monarchies, leaves little freedom for the local pastor or congregation to follow the leading of the Spirit.

The Presbyterian form of church government, which is typical in Presbyterian and Reformed churches, puts the decisions of church policy in the hands of a select group of elders (the "presbytery") who are appointed in various different ways, depending on the church. These elders are over the pastor, who in turn is over the congregation. The problem here too is that this system puts the God-appointed leader, the pastor, under some of those he is supposed to lead.

If what you say in your post earlier is true - then I have some serious concerns with your BFs church. Is he telling you these things? or have you experienced them yourself?

First, the Bible does state that anyone who believes on Jesus will be saved. You may want to check on the word origin of "believe" for it means to follow whole-heartedly.

It is good that he goes to church and that may avoid him getting into "trouble", although I do think that EVERY DAY is a little too much. The act of tithing 10% is obedience to God's Word. However, if they are forcing or likewise making him feel guilty for giving money, that is wrong. If you do not give to God with joy, it is meaningless. Might as well not give at all.

The only reason that a church may tell him to "back off" with the relationship with you, is if you two are currently engaging in _____. And in order to not keep falling into habitual sin, supressing the Spirit, any Christian would advise setting boundries. Otherwise, they have no say in your relationship. I assume that you are saved yourself b/c the Bible says not to be unequally yoked.

I understand your unwillingness to attend church with him and that is fine. Any good Bible-based church will do. I have to question why he is not "inviting" you there. To be completely honest, and not wanting to offend, it kindof sounds like he's trying to back off/or break up with you and using church as an excuse. And I cannot discern your situation over a few lines of posting.

Again, if what is going on in this church is true according to your posts, I seriously have to question the leadership there. But is it true? or is it what he's telling you is true?

ohliger:

First, thanks for the admission regarding Calvary and Pastor Bob.

1. Bob is not a "hireling" and your church doesn't believe in democratic government, as most denominational churches do. It's essentially a top down organization, with Bob in charge.

2. You don't know what Bob gets paid, because there is no meaningful financial transparency, i.e. an independently audited, published and detailed financial report the discloses in detail all salaries, compensation and expenses.

3. Bob has no meaningful education to back up his ordination, which the overwhelming majority of pastors and priests must have to be ordained. Instead, Pastor Chuck says Bob is a pastor, so he is one.

4. You can't find anything much wrong with anything Bob, Chuck Smith and/or Calvary have done, other than a little exegesis and a little attitude now and then.

See [www.culteducation.com]

Nevertheless, Calvary has a deeply troubled history of complaints and very serious problems, many of which might have been avoided if pastors like Chuck and Bob had meaningful accountability.

Finally, if you want to be one of the "sheep" that's your choice, but please ease up on the preaching here, which is against the rules you agreed to before posting.

moderator:

Thank you for not being judgemental and open minded. Some people think that their church is the only one that is right. (it is true that a lot of churches are not right - not doctrinally sound).

First, not withstanding the "degrees" that a pastor may have, as long as the congregation is intelligent enough to continually "test" everything against the Word of God, then there should not be a problem.

Second, a church should not coerce people into giving money, or making that a essential requirement of membership.

Third, the financial accountability is in God's hands. Am I giving to the church? or am I being obedient and giving to God? If, for some reason, whatever church is not dealing with finances correctly, how much more are they going to be accountable to God?

If I give to a homeless man, I'm not going to worry about whether he is going to buy alcohol, or whether he is going to buy food with that money. I don't have any way of discerning. So, I trust in God. And as long as I have been obedient to Him and given with joy, my reward will be in heaven.

Again, thank you for the freedom to answer some questions on a good Bible-based church. It's all about Jesus and the path to salvation.

ohlinger:

Leadership without meaningful accountability has proven to be a bad idea historically.

Don't forget examples like Jimmy Swaggert, Jim Bakker and so on.

Chuck Smith is yet another example and he has had very serious problems.

But if you wish to worship under what many would consider a dictatorship and give your money to men that have no meaningful financial transparency that's your choice.

This is not "about Jesus and the path to salvation," it's about control of a church congregation, money and power.

In such situations the old adage, "Trust but verify" seems to be appropriate.

Men make mistakes, "sin" and fall.

The story is the same from Adam, to Moses all the way to through to church leaders in modern times.

And without meaningful checks and balances the members of a church are very vulnerable.

We can go back and forth (and we have been) on church government structure and accountability. Both of us do have good points. In conclusion, Paul advised the church about having "vain" arguements while more important matters were left neglected.

However, I am confused. By holding firm to your opinion of what church organization should be, you are basically taking a legalistic position that is not addressed in the Bible (unless you have an extra chapter that I'm not aware of). But on the other hand, you have not given me one Scripture that goes against Calvary to be labeled a "cult". So, which do you use for the foundation of your faith and arguments, the Bible (God inspired)? or things outside the Bible (ie. humanly inspired)?

Regardless, of more concern to me is your statement of "This is not about Jesus and the path to salvation".

We've been discussing the accountability of those in control.

As moderator, who are you accountable to? For you have a certain amount of power that may be influenced by opinion as to what people read and post.

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ohliger
We can go back and forth (and we have been) on church government structure and accountability. Both of us do have good points. In conclusion, Paul advised the church about having "vain" arguements while more important matters were left neglected.

However, I am confused. By holding firm to your opinion of what church organization should be, you are basically taking a legalistic position that is not addressed in the Bible (unless you have an extra chapter that I'm not aware of). But on the other hand, you have not given me one Scripture that goes against Calvary to be labeled a "cult". So, which do you use for the foundation of your faith and arguments, the Bible (God inspired)? or things outside the Bible (ie. humanly inspired)?

Regardless, of more concern to me is your statement of "This is not about Jesus and the path to salvation".

Oh please...

We're not the Taliban here.

The Bible is a book written by men, as is the Koran. Your claim that it is "god inspired" rather than "human inspired" is the same nonsense every religious zealot puts forth. Oral Roberts said god spoke to him and told him to raise more money or die. I suppose you believe this also. The Calvary Church with which I am familiar in Redondo Beach, California is no longer there. I wonder if their cult-like practices had anything to do with their disappearance. Any idea? Several people I know wandered in thinking it was an ordinary church and were repulsed by the children shouting scripture to their parents and the "baby-sitters" assigned to new members. Are these practices isolated?


Ellen

This isn't a debate about my role as a moderator, the bible or belief.

This is a thread about Calvary Chapel.

ohliger--if you wish to worship under pastors that operate what can be seen as a form of dictatorship without any meaningful accountability to the congregants that's your choice.

The point is how Calvary is run.

And you have admitted it isn't run democratically, like the overwhelming majority of Protestant churches.

And that there are no educational requirements for its pastors like Bob.

I have never stated that Calvary is a "cult."

See [www.culteducation.com]

Calvary is a church with a deeply troubled history of serious problems and complaints, as reflected in the press.

It's founder Chuck Smith is a controversial figure.

It is neither "vain" nor "legalistic" to point out the probability that perhaps Calvary wouldn't have so many problems if its leaders had more accountability.

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elena

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ohliger
We can go back and forth (and we have been) on church government structure and accountability. Both of us do have good points. In conclusion, Paul advised the church about having "vain" arguements while more important matters were left neglected.

However, I am confused. By holding firm to your opinion of what church organization should be, you are basically taking a legalistic position that is not addressed in the Bible (unless you have an extra chapter that I'm not aware of). But on the other hand, you have not given me one Scripture that goes against Calvary to be labeled a "cult". So, which do you use for the foundation of your faith and arguments, the Bible (God inspired)? or things outside the Bible (ie. humanly inspired)?

Regardless, of more concern to me is your statement of "This is not about Jesus and the path to salvation".

Oh please...

We're not the Taliban here.

The Bible is a book written by men, as is the Koran. Your claim that it is "god inspired" rather than "human inspired" is the same nonsense every religious zealot puts forth. Oral Roberts said god spoke to him and told him to raise more money or die. I suppose you believe this also. The Calvary Church with which I am familiar in Redondo Beach, California is no longer there. I wonder if their cult-like practices had anything to do with their disappearance. Any idea? Several people I know wandered in thinking it was an ordinary church and were repulsed by the children shouting scripture to their parents and the "baby-sitters" assigned to new members. Are these practices isolated?


Ellen

Ellen: Do you believe the Bible is true? Or do you believe only part of it is true? Which parts and why? Have you read the Bible? Have you read II Timothy 3:16?

So, therefore, I must challenge you, Ellen, what Scripture does Calvary chapel violate to be considered a cult? I am not familiar with the "baby-sitter" idea b/c that is neither Biblical, nor practiced in my setting. From your post it sounds like you do not have first-hand experience, but rather, are relying on rumors, heresay, and gossip.