This is silly! Calvary Chapel is not providing guns, ammunition or any other arms for that matter to ANYONE! They might be smuggling Bibles into one of these countries, perhaps an underground missionary here and there.

Frank

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"weblogas"
Hello Fellow Travelers
I spent 20 years going to Calvary Costa Mesa. Now I feel as if its all wasted.
I am totally convinced that this church is a cult.
While I have read various posts about the things that have gone in the Calvary chapel system there is even more.
Calvary leans towards Christian Zionism which, although has many Christian trappings ,it is not.
Christian Zionists want to usher in Christ's kingdom sooner than God does . In order to do this they have in the past and will continue in the present to meddle in the the affairs of sovereign nations in the Middle East.
Like the American Catholics of the 1930'S they have even provided guns to at least one settlement in the Negev Desert,Gush Katif. (I had seen the pictures of the weapons these people were providing to the settlement.)This is not the Christianity I was introduced to.
There is even an indication that one of the people involved in this may even taken part in the killing of a native Bedouin with the weapons he supplied.

This is silly! Calvary Chapel is not providing guns, ammunition or any other arms for that matter to ANYONE! They might be smuggling Bibles into one of these countries, perhaps an underground missionary here and there.

Frank

I think my "drive-by" proved its point, eh?

You provide a much more lethal weapon. At least guns can be confiscated at the border when found. Your weapons are much more sinister, and much more deadly in the long-run.

Have a great brainwash, Frank.

No ,It's not silly it's sorry. I was there. you weren't.Unless of course your monitoring for the cult. If I have spoken falsely ,then I can be sued for LIBEL. Some how I think that won't happen . If I'm sued , this and more will become public. That's the last thing cults like this want.
Can we say that if you go to Calvary your lost? No, 1 I'm sure there are people there that are in deed Christian ,but gullible.
Remember ,it's a political organization so typical of the Christian Zionist movement. One might say they are pimping for Secular Israel. I ascribe to what Dr. McGee said about the current secular state of Israel. he didn't believe the current nation of Israel fulfilled prophecy.If they are mistaken about the current nation state of Israel then their theology falls apart.
There are other things that have and are still happening at Calvary. Keep in mind that this cult group is very large and as noted in all your other posts there is no supervision or accountability.
The high school is a good example of this. Many of the earlier classes which graduated from the Calvary Costa Mesa found that the school was unaccredited. Drugs Homosexual activity and everything else is very much part of that campus. It's like a small microcosm of the very secular society they detest.

After reading all these posts, I just want to share my experience with Calvary Chapel. First of all, I have been attending Calvary ever since I was born. (literally I was 2 days old the first time I was there). I have attended other churches but always fall back to the bible based, line for line, word for word teaching that Calvary does. I will admit that there are pastors in the church that are not perfect (hey wait, I think that would be all of them). And yes, I have encountered betrayel & hurt from a few. But if I left the church because of the two it would be the same as throwing the baby out with the bath water. I don't need to get rid of the baby because it is in dirty water. I just need to eliminate the dirty water. I left the church that I struggled with, my husband and I left together with his leading us. We found a smaller Calvary & have been blessed beyond anything we can imagine. I am one of those finatics that is at the church a lot. Not because of a demand, but by choice. I love being in the house of God. I make a choice to be involved. It is good for my kids. They learn about service & they are great servants of the Lord. We don't do things for man (though in my life that creeps in and I try to do things for man...it never makes anyone happy though and I realize real quick the need to serve God and not them). My husband is the youth minister for our high school ministry & we love those kids. We don't require anything of them, we don't tell them anything weird, we just simply plan events for them & teach them God's word straight from the bible. I am not going to say that my pastor is not human and doesn't make mistakes. He does, but his life is an open book. I can go into our finance ministry office & ask about the money in the church anytime I want. I can find out where money is going, who is getting what & how it is decided. We are told as a congregation that it is open to us at any time. The only thing they won't share with anyone is how much each individual is tithing. We are not told to tithe by the church. If we chose to tithe it is by the conviction of the Holy Spirit. Not church driven. We are taking issues of some of the calvarys and making blanket statements covering them all. Is it the organization or the teaching that is being questioned. Man makes organizations & yes they get messed up. But we need to get past mans doings and move onto what God is doing. There is accountability in our church. The pastor is accountable to his board. The board is accountable to the congregation. The congregation is accountable to the pastor or the smaller ministry leaders they attend bible study with. We have smaller studies throughout the week so that people can get more familiar with each other. They are not required, we do not have membership, and no money is asked of you. We do ask for money for mission trips because they cost money. I plan mission trips and I do understand it may seem odd for the church to charge, but if they didn't charge then everyone would go on mission trips and the church would go broke quickly. If you ask calvary to show you a outline of the costs spent on the mission field you would be surprised at the cost. The churchs make no money whatsoever from the cost of the missions. Also, our missionaries that become full time missionaries did have to put in some of their own money. They did have to do their best to make sure that they were going to be supported while out of the country. Why? Because they are not allowed to work in the other countries. The other countries won't allow it. These families have to make sure they have money to feed their kids, pay rent & get the things they need while out and away from all they are comfortable with. I don't have a problem with people questioning the motives of Calvary & their accountablility & such, but to blame an entire group of people for the sins of a few is the same as me stating that all teenagers are worthless, helpless, human beings and we should eliminate them from the earth because 10 of them went out and shot someone. It doesn't make sense. The things of the Lord will be foolishness to those who are perishing. If I offended anyone, I apologize, that wasn't my intentions. I just wanted to share my experience with Calvary. (And yes, I have been blamed by someone who left calvary of just thinking this way because I only know Calvary....and yet they came back to Calvary & realized there really isn't anything wrong with Calvary if you can get past the realization that Humans are in the leadership position.).

We have been round and round on this thread about meaningful accountability at Calvary Chapel.

There is none.

Meaningful accountability would be a published annual financial report that is independently audited, which discloses in detail all salaries, expenses and compensation paid out from each Calvary Chapel.

No one that has supported Calvary on this thread has ever produced anything approaching such a report.

Calvary Chapels typically don't have a constitutional with bylaws that (1) provide for a democratically elected board and officers that are elected by the full congregation (2) provide by bylaws that said elected board can fire a pastor, control and audit finances, determine the budget etc.

There are no accredited educational requirements for Calvary pastors, i.e. accredited college degree, accredited seminary degree.

These provisions and safeguards are typical of the overwhelming majority of Protestant churches.

And even the Pope was elected, whereas Chuck Smith seems to be self-appointed and annointed leader for life at Calvary.

What you see on this thread through posts by Calvary supporters is no response to the specific points, but rather vague answers and excuses, e.g. "we can see the books if we want to."

See [www.culteducation.com]

Note the history of problems Calvary has, which might be resolved by meaningful accountability, financial transparency and better educated pastors.

I disagree with the schooling issue, just as everyone else did. But maybe in a different light. My husband, who is the youth pastor, does go to classes but they are not in an accredited school. But he is taught. The Bible itself does not need to be understood only through going to seminary or such. That is how the mormons think. Only the 'elders' of the church can truly understand the word. But God speaks to each person individually. So someone can learn the bible without going to seminary. And if you look in the bible, in at least 3 different places I can think of, it talks about pastors being a gifting, teaching being a gifting. Gifts are something given, not earned or studied for. That is why I disagree with the statement they must be taught in a school. Would it benefit these pastors to go to bible college, or seminary. Of course it would. But the key is that they are normal people just like the rest of us placed in a position to teach the word. They are no better or worse than us. (ok, some may be worse...lol) but the point is that they are to be approachable. Society today has put so many labels on people that when someone has a title, they almost become unapproachable. I have seen it happen to much. The bible also says it is going to use the simple things to confound the wise. We are the simple things. The Lord wants to use us and laypeople.

The other issue is the money. Why is money always such an issue. There are no secrets of the money. The organization in calvary is in such a way that anyone can find out where the money is going. You can find out to the penny how much is coming in. God forbid you have to ask to see it, why should they have to post it up on the internet for it to be approved by all. Do you do that with your bank accounts? Seriously. If you want to know, ask. Ask & you will receive, seek & you will find. Knock and it will be open to you. Simple enough. I am sorry that in this world of internet people feel that it should all be put out there.

I will state that in our church that all financial decisions are approved by the board. The board is made up of elders, pastors, laymen of the church and a few people outside our fellowship to a bring balance. What are their exact roles? To keep an order to what is going on. They meet often & I believe that they also make decisions based on who can or can not be in roles of leadership. There is criteria that needs to be met based on 1 Timothy. There is an accountability that has been written out. I don't have the paper in hand, but does that mean it isn't written out.

Again. I think many people here are basing their opinions on a single church experience. If that was the case, well I should have left calvary years ago. But where else can I go that goes through the bible verse by verse, line by line. And all that they teach lines up with the bible? I don't want a church that teaches topicals, I want to go through the bible. That is all that this is about. Chuck Smith started a church that accepted anyone. He said come as you are. That took off to something bigger and now they are around the world. He didn't aim to have so many churches under the name of calvary chapel. He wanted to teach God's word to the people in a time where revival was needed. Wow. Who would have thought that such a ministry would have taken off like it did. You are right, maybe things are done in a perfect way. But does that make it a cult? Because of one bad seed the whole tree is rotten? I don't think so. Just because it isn't done your way doesn't make it wrong. It just makes it "not your way". There is no perfect way unless Jesus was here doing it himself. But then again, we are here and would be helping Him, so it wouldn't be perfect. Humans make mistakes. We can't do everything right all the time. It is time to stop judging people on their imperfections and start realizing it is time to see what Jesus would want of us individually.

all4givn6:

OK.

You have admitted that Calvary pastors have no meaningful (i.e. accredited college degree, seminary) requirements.

You have attempted, as other Calvary supporters that have posted here, to talk around points of fact regarding meaningful accountability.

You cannot produce a Calvary Chapel constitution that contains bylaws that require democratic church government, i.e. church boards and officers that are elected to regular fixed terms by the general congregation. And that these democratically elected church boards control the church budget and can fire a pastor.

You mention a board, but did not disclose how bylaws of a church constitution require general elections for board members etc. You describe an appointed board, not a constitutionally elected body that serves fixed terms and can fire a pastor, control church funds, etc.

You cannot produce a published financial report that has been independently audited, which discloses in detail the finances of any Calvary Church, i.e. salaries, expenses, any and all compensation paid out.

Instead, you offer vague references to how people "can find out," i.e. there is no published and independently audited budget that is published, which means there is no meaningful financial transparency.

You have not disputed specifically that Chuck Smith, is leader for life of Calvary Chapel.

Bottom line, there is no meaningful accountability and you can't produce any documentation to dispute this fact, even though you are a member.

I have not said that Calvary is a "cult," but rather a potentially unsafe church organization, where pastors essentially rule over their churces without meaningful accountability. And that Calvary Chapel is presided over by something like a king, Chuck Smith, who is its leader for life.

Silly Weblogas here,
The Guns for our Negev Brothers is only a small part of Calvary. Remember this is a Christian Zionist Cult.
for those who don't know this,Christian Zionism was founded over 100 years ago to proselytize Jews. Now its has become a means by which a sovereign state seeks to influence the internal politics of another sovereign state. Sorta like Pimping for Israel . The Guns for our Negev Brothers is only a logical extension of this doctrine. HIstory is rife with earlier examples of this.
It is amazing that this group seems to be made of Teflon. NO....... it's not God's will , but rather Chuck's political wrangling. Those who are still involved with this destructive cult can't see the forest from the trees.
They are not special, but rather imperial . The imperial attitude is common among this group as a whole. The attitude that they are as special as the Church Lady pervades the Whole movement.
I have yet to meet any member of this movement that doesn't act like this.
There are many mini non Christian movements with in this group, almost bordering on Occult. while it's members might not want to acknowledge this, it is unfortunately true.
the poor witness continues with all the drugs , sex and homosexual behavior thru out this movement.
Sure we can wax about the seeming lack of guidance about this group . This is really a symptom or harbinger of the cult's real core.

RRModerator,
Accredited by who? Accountable to who? You make it sound like the gov't is Big Brother. According to your standards then every mosque leader is a cult leader. Every reverand...I mean all of them...are cult leaders. So now a cult is a group who has not made themselves accounable to your gov't leader. I thought part of the definition of a cult was a group that is dictated by some human authority figure. Who is your governent leader? I may be mis-understanding you.

oh wait I just realized you are talking about financial reports. Right. Every church needs to show that. Sorry. I did misunderstand.