Re: Calvary Chapel Cult??
Posted by:
all4givn6
()
Date: November 14, 2007 04:56AM
Quote
weblogas
Silly Weblogas here,
The Guns for our Negev Brothers is only a small part of Calvary?
Can I ask what this is? I have been a part of calvary chapel for 32 years and have never ever ever heard of this? It is sad to say that all of you guys see things one way. "If you don't think like me, than you are a cult". Is there any truth in the bible? Because that is what Calvary teaches. Bible based teaching. You all want to fight about the politics of everything, but the Bible clearly states against arguing over things that are pointless. And such is all this. I came here to find out information on other groups. Not argue about them, but to find out what they believe. Why do you spend so much time bashing each other into the ground. We are called to love our neighbors. That means anyone we come into contact with. If more of us followed that commandment, I guess the web would be an empty place. There wouldn't be any hate groups like this, nor would there be any reason to be sitting home on the computer, because you would be out fellowshipping with your friends & others. In the terms of Rodney King "can't we all just get along". Yes I will stand up for what I believe in The Bible. I will stand up for those people who have been great mentors in my life, including Chuck Smith. I will stand up for the organization of Calvary Chapel. I will tell you that it is run by man & that no not everything is perfect. But we are not held to the world's standards either. There is freedom in Christ and they don't have to answer to you. If things are not done your way, they must be wrong? Well, that isn't true. If it isn't handed to you on the web then it must not be right? Well, that is very hypocritical of you. Are you required to put your bank statements online? Is your business information right here so I could look at it whenever I want? So what if you have to go and ask for the information. Obviously if you have a problem & you are willing to ask for the information, the people who handle the money will sit and listen to you more. We live in such a lazy society and everything needs to be hand fed to all of us. So much so that when it is not you automatically ridicule the organization and condemn them to your idea of hell. I pity the people who come up against the Lord's anointed. You can say what you want. Call me a fanatic, call me a freak, but all I can say is that I love Jesus Christ, my savior, and I will not allow anyone to tell me He is not who He is because you don't like the church in which I go to. Accountablility? Where is your accountability? You sit here and share you twisted ideas of what a church organization must be to be 'right', but how do we know what you do outside this computer. Honestly think of this, you could be some mass murderer sitting in prison writing these emails & not one of us would know it. Ok, I know that sounds a bit absurd, but think about that and how absurd it sounds that my church must meet your criteria for financial status or else we are a cult? Just a thought to ponder...
Re: Calvary Chapel Cult??
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: November 14, 2007 05:15AM
all4given6:
The fact remains that Calvary Chapel has a history of problems, bad press and some would say "scandal."
And overwhelmingly, Protestant churches do have meaningful accountability through democratically elected church government, meaningful financial transparency and accredited educational requirements for their pastors.
Calvary has essentially, none of the above.
Maybe that's why despite the much greater size of the United Methodist Church, Church of the Nazarene, American Baptist Convention, United Presbyterian Church, no one is posting about those churches and instead, despite its smaller size, there are many posts about Calvary here.
If you want to change this, instead of attempting to discredit those that complain about Calvary, maybe you should talk to Calvary leaders about reforming their organization?
Should Chuck Smith run Calvary as its self-anointed ruler for life?
If Calvary Chapels have nothing to hide about their finances, why not disclose in detail all salaries, expenses and compensation paid out from church funds?
If Calvary pastors recognize inherent human failings, why not have democratically elected church government like other Protestant churches that help to check the abuse of power and corruption?
I know you are here to defend Calvary, but use a little common sense about where the real problems lie, instead of trying to shift the focus elsewhere.
The fact remains that Calvary Chapel has a history of problems, bad press and some would say "scandal."
And overwhelmingly, Protestant churches do have meaningful accountability through democratically elected church government, meaningful financial transparency and accredited educational requirements for their pastors.
Calvary has essentially, none of the above.
Maybe that's why despite the much greater size of the United Methodist Church, Church of the Nazarene, American Baptist Convention, United Presbyterian Church, no one is posting about those churches and instead, despite its smaller size, there are many posts about Calvary here.
If you want to change this, instead of attempting to discredit those that complain about Calvary, maybe you should talk to Calvary leaders about reforming their organization?
Should Chuck Smith run Calvary as its self-anointed ruler for life?
If Calvary Chapels have nothing to hide about their finances, why not disclose in detail all salaries, expenses and compensation paid out from church funds?
If Calvary pastors recognize inherent human failings, why not have democratically elected church government like other Protestant churches that help to check the abuse of power and corruption?
I know you are here to defend Calvary, but use a little common sense about where the real problems lie, instead of trying to shift the focus elsewhere.
Re: Calvary Chapel Cult??
Posted by:
claypot
()
Date: November 15, 2007 03:06AM
rrmoderator,
First, I’m not trying to pick a fight. In fact, I’m not even hinting that your suggestions are themselves erroneous. Second, I am not defending Calvary Chapel, or any other church organization. Third, I am not on any church staff (in case you were wondering). I just have a few questions regarding your comments…
First, regarding the democratically elected church government: Is there a biblical precedence for this? It actually might be a reasonable means of keeping abuses in check, but the idea of democracy within the church is a quite recent phenomenon (relatively speaking).
Second, regarding meaningful financial transparency: I agree that there should be nothing hidden. My only question is this: Should someone’s salary be posted to everyone in the church? The answer may be “yes,” but people typically get really weird when salaries are disclosed, which in itself can lead to division (which God is on record for hating). What do you think about the idea of posting in the annual budget a line item that shows the money to be assigned to staff salaries and then trust the elected elders/deacons of the church government to review and assign salaries within the church staff? I mean, if they cannot be trusted, then it’s time to leave the church…
Third, regarding accredited educational requirements for pastors: Education can be a really good thing, no doubt. However, it also appears that many who have been educated in seminaries or bible colleges come away with more knowledge but less relationship with God. Again, I am not suggesting knowledge is in itself inherently bad, but which is more important: A pastor who holds a theological degree, or a pastor whose fruit demonstrate he or she loves God and people? The religious leaders in Acts took note that the apostles/disciples were uneducated, but they had been with Jesus. Again, I am not suggesting that knowledge is the problem—in fact, I recommend some form of formal training and education—I just am asking if an accredited education is in any way a guarantee the pastor won’t “go off the deep end.”
I wholeheartedly emphasize I am not trying to be confrontational, but, in the spirit of this forum, I am looking for thoughtful and specific responses to my questions. In that way, we all can benefit and potentially grow.
First, I’m not trying to pick a fight. In fact, I’m not even hinting that your suggestions are themselves erroneous. Second, I am not defending Calvary Chapel, or any other church organization. Third, I am not on any church staff (in case you were wondering). I just have a few questions regarding your comments…
First, regarding the democratically elected church government: Is there a biblical precedence for this? It actually might be a reasonable means of keeping abuses in check, but the idea of democracy within the church is a quite recent phenomenon (relatively speaking).
Second, regarding meaningful financial transparency: I agree that there should be nothing hidden. My only question is this: Should someone’s salary be posted to everyone in the church? The answer may be “yes,” but people typically get really weird when salaries are disclosed, which in itself can lead to division (which God is on record for hating). What do you think about the idea of posting in the annual budget a line item that shows the money to be assigned to staff salaries and then trust the elected elders/deacons of the church government to review and assign salaries within the church staff? I mean, if they cannot be trusted, then it’s time to leave the church…
Third, regarding accredited educational requirements for pastors: Education can be a really good thing, no doubt. However, it also appears that many who have been educated in seminaries or bible colleges come away with more knowledge but less relationship with God. Again, I am not suggesting knowledge is in itself inherently bad, but which is more important: A pastor who holds a theological degree, or a pastor whose fruit demonstrate he or she loves God and people? The religious leaders in Acts took note that the apostles/disciples were uneducated, but they had been with Jesus. Again, I am not suggesting that knowledge is the problem—in fact, I recommend some form of formal training and education—I just am asking if an accredited education is in any way a guarantee the pastor won’t “go off the deep end.”
I wholeheartedly emphasize I am not trying to be confrontational, but, in the spirit of this forum, I am looking for thoughtful and specific responses to my questions. In that way, we all can benefit and potentially grow.
Re: Calvary Chapel Cult??
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: November 15, 2007 03:40AM
claypot:
If you are willing to accept the way Calvary is run that's your choice.
Essentially it's something like a totalitarian franchise headed by Chuck Smith its leader for life. And each pastor runs his fiefdom as he sees fit with little if any meaningful accountability to his cogregation.
But democratic church government, financial transparency and educational requirements (accredited college degree, seminary) for pastors, is fairly routine for the majority of Protestant churches.
Most Protestants in the US would not be willing to accept Calvary-like regime, but again it's your choice and tithe to make.
If you don't care, OK, you don't care.
But these provisions within churches provide very important safeguards, and looking at Calvary's troubled history and complaints as reported by the press, perhaps many of these problems might have been avoided through such meanigful safeguards.
There is nothing in bible that prohibits them and if you do a study of deacons, elders and evangelists within the New Testament you will see that even the early church recognized the issue of meaningful accountability.
And we are not living in the First Century with small house churches when Christians were a small religious sect, but instead in the 21st Century with Christianity as a major world religion, with numbers and time comes the need to organize such measures as meaingful safeguards.
BTW--If you look back on this thread you will see that these issues have been repeatedly gone over before and that Calvary supporters have periodically come to this board repeating the same aplogies you have offered.
It's beginning to sound like a "mantra."
If you are willing to accept the way Calvary is run that's your choice.
Essentially it's something like a totalitarian franchise headed by Chuck Smith its leader for life. And each pastor runs his fiefdom as he sees fit with little if any meaningful accountability to his cogregation.
But democratic church government, financial transparency and educational requirements (accredited college degree, seminary) for pastors, is fairly routine for the majority of Protestant churches.
Most Protestants in the US would not be willing to accept Calvary-like regime, but again it's your choice and tithe to make.
If you don't care, OK, you don't care.
But these provisions within churches provide very important safeguards, and looking at Calvary's troubled history and complaints as reported by the press, perhaps many of these problems might have been avoided through such meanigful safeguards.
There is nothing in bible that prohibits them and if you do a study of deacons, elders and evangelists within the New Testament you will see that even the early church recognized the issue of meaningful accountability.
And we are not living in the First Century with small house churches when Christians were a small religious sect, but instead in the 21st Century with Christianity as a major world religion, with numbers and time comes the need to organize such measures as meaingful safeguards.
BTW--If you look back on this thread you will see that these issues have been repeatedly gone over before and that Calvary supporters have periodically come to this board repeating the same aplogies you have offered.
It's beginning to sound like a "mantra."
Re: Calvary Chapel Cult??
Posted by:
all4givn6
()
Date: November 15, 2007 03:45AM
Claypot, i totally agree with you. The problem here is that no one has those answers. You can ask them 100 different ways, but everyone explains how if those are not in order than the church is wrong somehow. The love of the pastor does not have anything to do with his credentials I guess. It is ridiculous. But the nice thing is....the thing the Lord showed me the other day "we do not have a need to defend the actions of the church. in the end when all is said and done, the ones whom are serving the Lord with their whole hearts, the people of the church that are in the will of God, they will be judged righteously before God & those that are persecuting the church and trying to take people away from where God has placed them...well they will be judged accordingly." We will never be able to change the mind of someone who doesn't want their mind changed. They will never look at the things we say objectively, they will only argue why they are right and we are wrong. Even if you didn't state a problem with a right/wrong answer. They are right and we are wrong...cased closed in their minds. If we don't agree with their way of thinking, if you even question their way of thinking you are of a cult and that is that. It is a sad place to be, but I am glad to know that no matter what I have assurance in Christ of where I will be eternally, and they do to. They just don't realize they have that ability. It isn't about the church, it is about the relationship with Jesus Christ and once that is taken out of the equation well, this happens. People sitting and arguing about who is right and who is wrong. I pray for the people on this site and that their eyes would be open to the truth of the Bible, not the truth of politics. I think they have that down. I am definitely not trying to get anyone to go to my church either, you have to go where you are called. I don't feel comfortable in a baptist type church, but does that mean I don't love the Lord, NO. It just means that the baptist church isn't for me. Yes there are religions out there that are cults or cultish. To state that a church is a cult because of its need to show finances is wrong. You would be embarrased if you knew how much my pastor made. He makes so little is sad. They haven't even taken a raise in 10 years. So is he a cult leader because he doesn't share that news with everone? I don't think so. I think he doesn't want people to feel pressured to tithe just so he can get more money. Because that is what it would seem like. We are not about money, we are about relationships. That is all that I have been trying to say to this point. Money is the root of all evil and when it all becomes about money, well it all goes bad.
Re: Calvary Chapel Cult??
Posted by:
claypot
()
Date: November 15, 2007 04:07AM
rrmoderator,
First, I am not a member of the Calvary Chapel Church.
Second, I do care. (I would not post if I did not.)
Third, I agree that some forms of accountablity and meaningful safeguards should be implemented. People (not just the Church) have a history of abuse.
Fourth, I am not offering an apology for anything or anyone.
The purpose of my posting was to get some thoughtful and specific answers to some specific questions. That is all. No other agenda. Please do not assume that there is anything more.
I will consider the bit of information you did offer; there are some good points in there. I don't know we will agree on everything, but I can at least respect another/your view point.
Thank you for your time.
First, I am not a member of the Calvary Chapel Church.
Second, I do care. (I would not post if I did not.)
Third, I agree that some forms of accountablity and meaningful safeguards should be implemented. People (not just the Church) have a history of abuse.
Fourth, I am not offering an apology for anything or anyone.
The purpose of my posting was to get some thoughtful and specific answers to some specific questions. That is all. No other agenda. Please do not assume that there is anything more.
I will consider the bit of information you did offer; there are some good points in there. I don't know we will agree on everything, but I can at least respect another/your view point.
Thank you for your time.
Re: Calvary Chapel Cult??
Posted by:
claypot
()
Date: November 15, 2007 04:34AM
all4givn6,
Please understand, you do not totally agree with me. There are some legitimate concerns about Calvary that should not be overlooked. (Though, I cannot say that Calvary is a bad organization either...I don't have all the facts...)
Read what I posted at face value; do not read anything into it. The point of my posting was merely to ask the moderator for more insight to his/her points.
There are several of your points I do agree with you on, but I imagine most who read the Bible and are pursuing a relationship with Christ would also (even if they disagreed on other points). However, I have to ask: What was the purpose of your last posting?
I ask you to reread your posting and consider how much of it is emotionally based versus factually based. Yes, you present some undeniable truths and I imagine, some defensible fact, but there is a lot of emotion that seems to distract, therefore cloud, those truths and facts. As an objective reader, it appears you yourself are attacking anyone who has a differing opinion from your own. (This may have not been your intent, but it does appear that way...)
I hope and pray the best for you.
Please understand, you do not totally agree with me. There are some legitimate concerns about Calvary that should not be overlooked. (Though, I cannot say that Calvary is a bad organization either...I don't have all the facts...)
Read what I posted at face value; do not read anything into it. The point of my posting was merely to ask the moderator for more insight to his/her points.
There are several of your points I do agree with you on, but I imagine most who read the Bible and are pursuing a relationship with Christ would also (even if they disagreed on other points). However, I have to ask: What was the purpose of your last posting?
I ask you to reread your posting and consider how much of it is emotionally based versus factually based. Yes, you present some undeniable truths and I imagine, some defensible fact, but there is a lot of emotion that seems to distract, therefore cloud, those truths and facts. As an objective reader, it appears you yourself are attacking anyone who has a differing opinion from your own. (This may have not been your intent, but it does appear that way...)
I hope and pray the best for you.
Re: Calvary Chapel Cult??
Posted by:
all4givn6
()
Date: November 15, 2007 05:13AM
Claypot,
I am sorry, I wasn't aiming those things at you. Just the first sentence or two. I should have made that more clear. I apologize for making you think I was attacking you. I just get very frustrated with people who feel their way of thinking is the only right way. I grew up with that, with a dad who was the only one right, very religious and very out there in thinking. I have since seen him change, and our lives are much more peaceful now. He has his way of doing things and I have mine. So I easily get upset with people, like the ones on this forum, who claim their ways are the only ways. Doesn't almost every religion teach that. Our way is the only way to heaven....Our God is the only true God. I believe there is one true God, and I believe in the trinity & I believe in the bible completely. It is not Calvary Chapel I believe in, I do feel safe in the teachings there. That is what I like about Calvary. I have tried other churches, but I don't like the always topical, or never open your bible type churches. I like the format of Calvary teachings. That is what Calvary Chapel is all about. It is about getting the word, from the Bible, being taught verse by verse. It isn't about the organization or structure of finances. Finances are such a small thing in our church I think that is why Calvary doesn't put them out there. They are not money driven. We are not all seeking for more tithes, though a little bit of extra money could never hurt (not spoken from them pulpit...just my own opinion). I think that is why I get so frustrated here. Everyone is making this out about a group of people and not the relationship with Jesus Christ that they are encouraging. That is all and again I am sorry it seemed I was going after you. I never was.
I am sorry, I wasn't aiming those things at you. Just the first sentence or two. I should have made that more clear. I apologize for making you think I was attacking you. I just get very frustrated with people who feel their way of thinking is the only right way. I grew up with that, with a dad who was the only one right, very religious and very out there in thinking. I have since seen him change, and our lives are much more peaceful now. He has his way of doing things and I have mine. So I easily get upset with people, like the ones on this forum, who claim their ways are the only ways. Doesn't almost every religion teach that. Our way is the only way to heaven....Our God is the only true God. I believe there is one true God, and I believe in the trinity & I believe in the bible completely. It is not Calvary Chapel I believe in, I do feel safe in the teachings there. That is what I like about Calvary. I have tried other churches, but I don't like the always topical, or never open your bible type churches. I like the format of Calvary teachings. That is what Calvary Chapel is all about. It is about getting the word, from the Bible, being taught verse by verse. It isn't about the organization or structure of finances. Finances are such a small thing in our church I think that is why Calvary doesn't put them out there. They are not money driven. We are not all seeking for more tithes, though a little bit of extra money could never hurt (not spoken from them pulpit...just my own opinion). I think that is why I get so frustrated here. Everyone is making this out about a group of people and not the relationship with Jesus Christ that they are encouraging. That is all and again I am sorry it seemed I was going after you. I never was.
Re: Calvary Chapel Cult??
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: November 15, 2007 05:21AM
all4givn6:
Please avoid preaching here, which is against the rules you agreed to before posting.
Do a bible study.
Start with Galatians and note what Paul says about bad leadership, he holds them accountable before believers on earth.
And again, study the accountability as outlined for deacons, elders and evangelists. The principle of earthly accountability is there.
What you are seemingly endorsing in no earthly accountability for Calvary pastors, which isn't either supported by the bible or good common sense.
Totalitarian regimes are not usually a good thing and Jesus said that many would come in his name, but he would not know them.
Likewise, Jesus warned about wolves in sheep's clothing.
The safeguards cited are not the only way, but rather a common sense approach, so that it is more difficult for wolves to make a prey of believers.
Each church makes its own decisions, you are free to accept an authoritarian regime if you wish, but the top down method of clergy rule doesn't seem to have done the Roman Catholic Church much good lately.
Again, and this has been said before on this thread, Calvary has not been labeled a "cult," certainly not by the Ross Institute.
See [forum.culteducation.com]
I consider Calvary a controversial church with a troubled history per the issues discussed on this thread and reported by the press.
If you wish to ignore those issues and Calvary's troubled history, that's your choice, but don't try to insinuate that those that disagree with are somehow "persecuting the church and trying to take people away from where God has placed them."
That is a false statement.
People have simply questioned the behavior of Calvary's leaders and that's neither "persecution" or going against "God." Instead, it's about holding individuals accountable for their behavior.
Can't you distinguish between God and Calvary?
FYI--Calvary is an organization run by humans on earth.
When Paul questioned Peter about his behavior regarding new converts in Acts, Peter didn't equate questioning his conduct with questioning God or persecuting the church.
He thought about it and considered it carefully.
Why don't you think about it?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/15/2007 05:29AM by rrmoderator.
Please avoid preaching here, which is against the rules you agreed to before posting.
Do a bible study.
Start with Galatians and note what Paul says about bad leadership, he holds them accountable before believers on earth.
And again, study the accountability as outlined for deacons, elders and evangelists. The principle of earthly accountability is there.
What you are seemingly endorsing in no earthly accountability for Calvary pastors, which isn't either supported by the bible or good common sense.
Totalitarian regimes are not usually a good thing and Jesus said that many would come in his name, but he would not know them.
Likewise, Jesus warned about wolves in sheep's clothing.
The safeguards cited are not the only way, but rather a common sense approach, so that it is more difficult for wolves to make a prey of believers.
Each church makes its own decisions, you are free to accept an authoritarian regime if you wish, but the top down method of clergy rule doesn't seem to have done the Roman Catholic Church much good lately.
Again, and this has been said before on this thread, Calvary has not been labeled a "cult," certainly not by the Ross Institute.
See [forum.culteducation.com]
I consider Calvary a controversial church with a troubled history per the issues discussed on this thread and reported by the press.
If you wish to ignore those issues and Calvary's troubled history, that's your choice, but don't try to insinuate that those that disagree with are somehow "persecuting the church and trying to take people away from where God has placed them."
That is a false statement.
People have simply questioned the behavior of Calvary's leaders and that's neither "persecution" or going against "God." Instead, it's about holding individuals accountable for their behavior.
Can't you distinguish between God and Calvary?
FYI--Calvary is an organization run by humans on earth.
When Paul questioned Peter about his behavior regarding new converts in Acts, Peter didn't equate questioning his conduct with questioning God or persecuting the church.
He thought about it and considered it carefully.
Why don't you think about it?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/15/2007 05:29AM by rrmoderator.
Re: Calvary Chapel Cult??
Posted by:
weblogas
()
Date: November 15, 2007 10:37AM
Silly Weblogas here,
Obviously the sheeple (sheep people) refuse to see the forest from the trees.
In this cult the apples don't fall far from the tree. It seems as if Calvary Chapel would have us fight the 100 years war again
Calvary chapel Julian has a pastor who is following in the footsteps of his handlers by refusing to attend inter faith community prayer and fellowship. Why ,you ask? Because a Catholic Priest shows up there from the local parish.
remember; one of the marks of a cult is it's claim to exclusivity of revelation of God's word.
Issue;
Chuck Smith resides in a very expensive,exclusive part of Orange County California. Question?Financial Accountability? Does not the Bible say "you shall know them by their fruits"?
Francis Bacon; "power tends to corrupt,but absolute power corrupts absolutely".
Obviously the sheeple (sheep people) refuse to see the forest from the trees.
In this cult the apples don't fall far from the tree. It seems as if Calvary Chapel would have us fight the 100 years war again
Calvary chapel Julian has a pastor who is following in the footsteps of his handlers by refusing to attend inter faith community prayer and fellowship. Why ,you ask? Because a Catholic Priest shows up there from the local parish.
remember; one of the marks of a cult is it's claim to exclusivity of revelation of God's word.
Issue;
Chuck Smith resides in a very expensive,exclusive part of Orange County California. Question?Financial Accountability? Does not the Bible say "you shall know them by their fruits"?
Francis Bacon; "power tends to corrupt,but absolute power corrupts absolutely".
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