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rrmoderator
Here are two general areas of repeated complaints.

1. Families felt that the demands made by IHOP damaged their family life and/or estranged family members.

2. People felt exploited by IHOP regarding fund raising and labor.

3. Participants complained that IHOP was psychologically and emotionally abusive and destructive.

1. I happen to know from people who've attended internships that IHOP does not require you to abandon your family OR friends. The only restriction is [b:e8cb5dae71]casual[/b:e8cb5dae71] dating (i.e. dating random people frequently), and that is for interns, not members. If the people making complaints were lead to feeling that, it was not because of IHOP regulations.

2. Point is somwhat vague. I have never heard anything whatsoever about IHOP raising funds period.

3. Stories I've heard are the complete turnaround of what you're saying. Again, your point is vague. I would like specifics, not categories.

If people failed to give you specific details in the first place, at least say so, instead of dragging this on.

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rrmoderator
You don't care that IHOP is essentially a dictatorship without democratic church government.

And you don't know where the money goes and don't care about that either.

Let me be specific: A time may come when I will care, but that again depends on the specifics of the claims you've received. I'm not going to worry about it [i:e8cb5dae71]just because[/i:e8cb5dae71] it's set up that way.

"A Heart for God":

You have been given enough specifics, anything further would violate the confidentiality of the complaints and information shared.

Suffice to say, that I would not recommend IHOP to anyone under any circumstances and the complaints were quite serious, repeated and credible.

If you wish to ignore this and unlike most evangelical Christians, prefer to support what is essentially a totalitarian ministry without any meaningful accountability, that's your choice to make.

It seems your only purpose on this board is to support IHOP and attempt to provide spin for the organization as an apologist.

Your comments have helped to clarify the situation at IHOP and ironically support much of what has been critically said here about the organization.

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rrmoderator
"You have been given enough specifics, anything further would violate the confidentiality of the complaints and information shared.

I'm not asking for people's names; It's none of my business. But you can't seriously expect me to believe incredibly vague claims.

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It seems your only purpose on this board is to support IHOP and attempt to provide spin for the organization as an apologist.

The reality, however, is that I am not or have never been a member of IHOP, as I stated before. I stated some my church, including staff, has been to internship there (as well as seminars, for what its worth). No complaints were received whatsoever. Of course, I suspect you think I'm lying, given you think you have me pegged. I would be happy to provide any information to help you validate it, just ask.

"Heart for God":

Again, I have received repeated complaints regarding family estrangements over IHOP and about the excessive pressure/demands/control concerning its members.

Families have repeatedly complained that IHOP has undue influence over their children.

That's specific enough without going into details that might compromise confidentiality.

Also, as you admit, Mike Bickle has a history of problems.

I didn't say you were a "member of IHOP," just a diehard supporter and apologist. You have also stated that you plan to be an "intern" at IHOP.

You have also now admitted that your church has ties to IHOP.

[quote="rrmoderator]You have also now admitted that your church has ties to IHOP.[/quote]I said that quite some time ago, actually. You've never bothered to ask [i:e2834d0a71]why[/i:e2834d0a71], and I know you wouldn't care for the answer since it's "religious" in nature. Do you think we just sat around one day and said "Hey, there's this place in Kansas City. Let's send people there for no apparent reason." "Uh... ok."

I have indeed admitted Mike Bickle's problematic past, which you readily acknowledge. I have also brought up how greatly he's changed in the way he conducts things (particularly in contrast to the KCP movement), and cited sources, which were even at times articles that supported your side of the discussion, but brought up a few points in my favor. The purpose of that was to show I wasn't cherry-picking my sources. Despite that, you've ignored his changes.

You now seem to think I'm trying to get info about the past participants with complaints, and as I said, I'm not interested. If the claims are as repeated as you claim, it wouldn't be as comprimising to share details as you say it is. What I would be more interested (though I doubt you have the information) in is the names of the IHOP staff that did these things.

I admire that you want to keep confidentiality, but in my opinion, you're taking it to an extreme. It doesn't even give a chance for rebuttal.

"Examination" might have been a better word than "rebuttal." Sorry.

Meaningful changes for Mike Bickle would be (1) accountability through democratically elected boards and (2) financial transparency made evident by indpendently audited financial reports that disclose his salary and total compensation.

No such changes have been made as you have repeatedly acknowledged.

Again, it doesn't seem like you are here for any real exchange of ideas or information, but rather to defend IHOP.

You don't seem seriously "interested" in complaints, just "rebuttal."

And it seems that the purpose of your "examination" of anything negative about IHOP is to ultimately defend IHOP by rebutting it.

FYI, one of the articles I read (referenced from factnet) did indeed put questions on my mind about Bickle (albeit it was older about KCF). In fact, part of my interest in internship now is to see if complaints like these can be validated. Please do not presume to know my mind. The reason I like IHOP is [i:156676fe72]not[/i:156676fe72] for political or financial reasons. It is because it is the only place I have consistently felt the presence of God. I know you probably don't believe such things, but it's as simple as that. (Please note the order of my logic; it is because of "A" that I support "B", not the other way around, as would be in someone pushing a Christian-based cult. I am [b:156676fe72]not[/b:156676fe72] saying "I like IHOP, [i:156676fe72]therefore[/i:156676fe72] they have the presence of God.")

While I can't say whether the complaints you've received are valid or not, I would say that such behavior in leadership is quite unlikely to be endorsed by the organization as a whole, since the greater majority of experiences are contrary to them. This is part of the reason names of IHOP staff involved might have been interesting to note; to see if it was a particular few leaders. But that's something you'll have to look into yourself, apparently.

And just a random comment - I actually have a friend from my church who likes IHOP, but is not particularly fond of Bickle. He actually said he wanted to punch him in the face. :) He's never really said why, but then again, I've never asked. So figure that one out! I'm not as Bickle-centric as this thread has made me look either, but I can't say I hate the guy.
Anyway, I thought you might find that amusing.

"Heart for God":

It sounds like IHOP makes you feel good.

OK.

But IHOP has made other people feel bad.

And many Christians that care about accountability issues and are disturbed about Bickle's troubled history have serious doubts about IHOP.

You are not making any new points here and instead repeating yourself.

Please understand that your subjective experience at IHOP doen't change the facts about the ministry or Bickle.

OK, I can understand that easily enough. But again, is it fair to consider the whole organization bad because of what a few leaders may have done? I know you don't do that with all denominations. It's like saying all Catholics are child molesters because of a few priests that couldn't help themselves. We don't know if the guilty party or parties at IHOP, FMA, or FSM, (whichever it may have been), were reprimanded or not.

I agree it would indeed be nice to see Bickle under recognized accountability, but accountability doesn't assure anything, as has been demonstrated by other faiths.