Just for the sake of argument, let's assume the 2-3 things you've stated are true. (since I am not personally unable to prove otherwise at this given time, as I've said several times before).

You assume that someone who "can" operate absolutely "does." Believe it or not, there are Christians in leadership with a sense of Biblical morals that they actually uphold. Your analysis of controversial organizations seems to have a major flaw in that it doesn't examine the motivations of those in leadership - or if it does, you haven't brought it up in this discussion. An organization can meet all the "technicals" of being a cult, but have no intention of being harmful to people or taking advantage of them. My church, for example, meets your criteria, but we require nothing of our members (except a reasonable respect for the place), and we give food to needy families every month for free. Does it actually sound fair to you to call organizations like that a cult based on technical criteria that have basically come out of your own organization?

If you're so certain that IHOP is a cult, why don't you actually do some hands on investigation yourself instead of expecting others do it? I believe that is the purpose of your organization, after all. I am distanced from IHOP, and I lack the opportunity to go there to acquire info. I am not all-knowing.

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rrmoderator
Over and over again religious groups, churches and ministries that are run like kingdoms get into trouble.

"Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely"--seems to be the operating principle.

Consider for a moment that you mostly only hear about the ones that get into trouble in the first place. If you run an organization that is specifically purposed to investigate potential cults, your experiences in situations like these become severely limited. There are thousands of independant non-denominational churches that have unelected leaders and are not financially transparent (at least on the scale you hope for) that never get into trouble. What of them? For this reason, you've comitted a logical fallacy called "affirming the consequent" (as well as just making generalizations). As an example, tell me something Bickle has done that has been harmful or disadvantageous to someone.

Since I'm fuzzy on what else your criteria are, I can't examine the logic, but I suspect appeals of antiquity and novelty are at play as well. (Sorry, but I've been waiting the whole length of this discussion to bring up the logic of it all.)

Please understand I mean no disrespect, but I still reserve my right to question your methods.

As for children - If you have serious concerns still (and please be more specific this time), you might want to bring them up, because my church is sending some of our youth to IHOP very soon for a three week "intensive." Your information before was fairly vague and undetailed.

A Heart for God:

Please refrain from false arguments.

I have never said that IHOP is a "cult."

See [www.culteducation.com]

I regard IHOP as a controversial ministry without meaningful accountability, which I would not recommend to anyone under any circumstances.

Again, IHOP has a deeply troubled history, that seems directly connected to structure and accountability issues.

There may be independent churches and misnistries, which are essentially run like kingdoms by authritarian leaders that don't get into trouble. But a repeated pattern for those that do get into trouble is that they lack meaningful accountability.

Happily, there are many, many churches and ministries without a troubled history like IHOP and Bickle. This means those looking for a ministry to parcipate in can easily choose one that is less controverisal and therefore more reputable and probably a safer choice.

Looking for accountability is a good indication of safety.

The Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability has some good guidelines.

See See [www.ecfa.org]

I have first-hand experience working with people hurt by IHOP and have received serious complaints.

True, you haven't used the term "cult" per se. But you're not to far off in your opinion of it, or so it would seem.

I have said before that much has changed with Bickle in contrast to the KCP movement, and he has refuted parts of it himself; You continue to ignore that. I believe I asked for details on trouble with IHOP's history (or something to that effect), but you diverted me to the KCP movement, despite IHOP's notable differences to it.

You also continue to provide only vague information regarding those "hurt" by IHOP. The most you've provided me is that children have "worked." Obviously, this can included anything from simply keeping their room clean at their host home, or doing light chores, to something more serious like hard labor (of which I am fully skeptical). If you will not provide details, I would like to politely ask that you disregard using them in your assessment of IHOP.

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rrmoderator
There may be independent churches and misnistries, which are essentially run like kingdoms by authritarian leaders that don't get into trouble.

I'd like to touch on this again: character traits of leaders is a very relevant matter in such a situation. Those who have capacity to run their churches in an authoritarian manner don't necessarily do so. In fact, they are often very open to opinions, suggestions, and accountability. Referring to them all as "authoritarian leaders" is rather callous. Not everyone starting a non-denominational church is out for power. Most, in fact, are simply trying to escape unbiblical or extra-biblical doctrine that exists in the majority of mainstream denominations.

"Heart for God":

Try having a heart for IHOP victims too.

I have sat down and talked with them.

That is, with people once involved and active with the ministry, as well as families directly affected by the ministry through a child's involvement.

Frankly, you don't seem to be here for much other than apologies and spin for IHOP. And you don't even appear to know the facts about the organization and how its structured.

You still won't tell me anything specific. How am I supposed to be sympathetic for something that hasn't been told, hmm? Your alleged claims are the first I've ever heard mentioned, and because of that, I've heard [i:c6c6d54f0b]far[/i:c6c6d54f0b] more good reports than bad.

Since you refuse to give me details, I'll continue to plan my internship there in 2-3 years, as well as attending FMA.

You'll have to forgive me if I don't find financial transparency and church democracy a threat to my walk with God. I'm not so naive that I'd stay there if a problem arose. I don't expect one to.

"Heart for God":

OK.

You don't care that IHOP is essentially a dictatorship without democratic church government.

And you don't know where the money goes and don't care about that either.

It's all about your "walk with God."

Right.

Here are two general areas of repeated complaints.

1. Families felt that the demands made by IHOP damaged their family life and/or estranged family members.

2. People felt exploited by IHOP regarding fund raising and labor.

3. Participants complained that IHOP was psychologically and emotionally abusive and destructive.

The FactNet message board also has comments that include Mike Bickle.

See [www.factnet.org]

Sorry RR. That board is about the House of Prayer (HOP) churches, HQ-ed in Hinesville GA. HOP is a group that is an offshoot from the New Testament Christian Churches of America, Inc. (NTCC), founded by Rev. R.W. Davis.
HOP is founded and run by Ron Denis.

There are NOT related to the IHOP.

I'd say that IHOP is a cultish group that preys mainly on soldiers. They are even more controlling and legalistic the NTCC. I knew them when I was in the Army in Hinesville. Definitely a dangerous group with a sordid history.

Again, no relation to the IHOP.

Have you heard of the Hinesville group, RR?

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I'd say that IHOP is a cultish group that preys mainly on soldiers. They are even more controlling and legalistic the NTCC. I knew them when I was in the Army in Hinesville. Definitely a dangerous group with a sordid history.

Correction: that is--HOP Hineville is a cultish group that preys mainly on soldiers.

Excuse me for that mistake.

FactNet does include information about Bickle though.