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Re: Samuel Sagan Clairvision
Posted by: mesche ()
Date: September 16, 2021 06:21PM

That is unfortunately the norm I think. That could have been me saying that ten years ago perhaps.


-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes, I find it's been hard for me to find the
> right support as well - I had a therapist tell me
> that now I can be more discerning after going
> through this experience and other condescending
> remarks that make me feel like I should have seen
> this coming. The thing is, I was being discerning
> when I joined the group. I did my due diligence -
> at least as much as I could - there were only 2
> posting here in this forum around the time I
> joined Clairvision and there wasn't anything else
> negative I could find about them on the internet.
> But when people are lying by omission it can
> easily seem like they are telling the truth -
> there is a lot of lying by omission in
> Clairvision. Sometimes people say the most
> unhelpful things trying to give advice about how
> to move on from these kinds of experiences.
>
> I also sometimes really miss my friends I had from
> the school but I don't feel safe to contact them
> for fear of what they might report back to the
> group. Then I start to wonder what our connection
> was really about anyway, was it just a trauma
> bond? Probably... I started to realize this about
> many if not most of my relationships with people
> in the school - they were formed through trauma
> bonding
>
> mesche Wrote:
> > It's lonely getting out. I found a group at
> some
> > point that was a meeting place for cult
> survivors
> > and didn't even feel like I was allowed to be
> in
> > it. Most had grown up in religious cults and
> were
> > born into them. They were innocent. But I chose
> > being part of a cult or whatever we should name
> > such a group as an adult in my early twenties.
> The
> > guilt and shame felt so inappropriate to share
> > when some of them told horror-stories from when
> > they were 8 and had no other options than to
> stay
> > or die.

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Re: Samuel Sagan Clairvision
Posted by: mesche ()
Date: September 18, 2021 10:35AM

oneclickwonder Wrote:
>
> I hope you're well and fully recovered after these
> incidents.

I'm not and I might never. Luckily there were witnesses not in the school to some of the things I experienced because at one point I started doubting my own sanity. One of those people raised very logical and concerned questions and was met with both anger and petty revenge. I was questioned about this persons background, resources, personality, medical record and so much more.

I talked to a licensed psychiatrist about some of it years after and he put a bullet through some of the nonsense I had been told over the years. But I still grieve having wasted years, trust and work on this group. And grieving the temporary loss of myself.

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Re: Samuel Sagan Clairvision
Posted by: metanoia ()
Date: September 19, 2021 10:02AM

I think it is so, so complicated, confusing, and hard to be discerning when there is also something of substance being offered along with the toxic bits. The techniques they teach clearly do something--it's not an out-and-out fraud. I'm just not convinced that they do what the school says they do, or that they can take me where I want to go. It is really hard to figure out if you should just throw the whole thing out, or if there are things that are worth keeping, and how to make those decisions. My heart goes out to you both.

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Re: Samuel Sagan Clairvision
Posted by: mesche ()
Date: September 19, 2021 12:45PM

But the someting is actually not what it seems to be. Most of what I experienced, the good and the bad, can be explained very well with science. I threw the whole thing out years ago.


metanoia Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think it is so, so complicated, confusing, and
> hard to be discerning when there is also something
> of substance being offered along with the toxic
> bits. The techniques they teach clearly do
> something--it's not an out-and-out fraud.
> I'm just not convinced that they do what the
> school says they do, or that they can take me
> where I want to go. It is really hard to figure
> out if you should just throw the whole thing out,
> or if there are things that are worth keeping, and
> how to make those decisions. My heart goes out to
> you both.

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Re: Samuel Sagan Clairvision
Posted by: mesche ()
Date: September 19, 2021 12:49PM

Threw out all the techniques I meant.



mesche Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> But the someting is actually not what it
> seems to be. Most of what I experienced, the good
> and the bad, can be explained very well with
> science. I threw the whole thing out years ago.
>
>
> metanoia Wrote:
> -------------------------------------------------------
> > I think it is so, so complicated, confusing,
> and
> > hard to be discerning when there is also
> something
> > of substance being offered along with the toxic
> > bits. The techniques they teach clearly do
> > something--it's not an out-and-out
> fraud.
> > I'm just not convinced that they do what the
> > school says they do, or that they can take me
> > where I want to go. It is really hard to figure
> > out if you should just throw the whole thing
> out,
> > or if there are things that are worth keeping,
> and
> > how to make those decisions. My heart goes out
> to
> > you both.

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Re: Samuel Sagan Clairvision
Posted by: grok ()
Date: September 19, 2021 11:51PM

mesche,

Do you mean the metaphysical aspects of what the Clairvision work claims to bring can be explained with science? I don't think I totally understand what you mean here, could you expand a bit?

mesche Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> But the someting is actually not what it
> seems to be. Most of what I experienced, the good
> and the bad, can be explained very well with
> science. I threw the whole thing out years ago.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/19/2021 11:53PM by grok.

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Re: Samuel Sagan Clairvision
Posted by: mesche ()
Date: September 20, 2021 12:29AM

I mean experiences had while doing the work can be explained scientifically. I don't know if there are ever any metaphysical experiences even though I thought they were at the time.



grok Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> mesche,
>
> Do you mean the metaphysical aspects of what the
> Clairvision work claims to bring can be explained
> with science? I don't think I totally understand
> what you mean here, uld you expand a bit?
>
> mesche Wrote:
> -------------------------------------------------------
> > But the someting is actually not what it
> > seems to be. Most of what I experienced, the
> good
> > and the bad, can be explained very well with
> > science. I threw the whole thing out years ago.

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Re: Samuel Sagan Clairvision
Posted by: oneclickwonder ()
Date: September 21, 2021 12:43PM

I actually tend to believe that there is a spiritual level to reality and have tended to before my time at CV. I found the experience of seeing purple lights and vibration in the eye to be intense as I did with a number of other techniques from the school.

I'm not sure what scientific explanations people have for the experiences I have had but I would like to hear more about that.

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Re: Samuel Sagan Clairvision
Posted by: mesche ()
Date: September 21, 2021 02:09PM

There's a lot of information to look for out there. I have very bad experiences with providing scientific explanations to students of the school and won't do that again. Seeing is believing, right? I suggest you search for scientific articles about whatever type of experience you would like to know more about.

I have for instance looked into research on how cults and cult leaders manipulate, what prolonged eye contact can do and what type of people might be more vulnerable to it, what the power of suggestion is and how it influences our memories. Brainwashing and past life therapy too. And a lot more. It has been a very interesting and liberating journey for me. For others it might be very upsetting.

If you need a place to start, looking up past life therapy in Wikipedia might be interesting.

I cherish some of the spiritual experiences I had in the school even though I think there are very human explanations to them. They don't have to be devine to be valuable or part of my lifes story. But I won't subject myself to the work in any form anymore.



oneclickwonder Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I actually tend to believe that there is a
> spiritual level to reality and have tended to
> before my time at CV. I found the experience of
> seeing purple lights and vibration in the eye to
> be intense as I did with a number of other
> techniques from the school.
>
> I'm not sure what scientific explanations people
> have for the experiences I have had but I would
> like to hear more about that.

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Re: Samuel Sagan Clairvision
Posted by: metanoia ()
Date: September 21, 2021 11:48PM

oneclickwonder Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I actually tend to believe that there is a
> spiritual level to reality and have tended to
> before my time at CV. I found the experience of
> seeing purple lights and vibration in the eye to
> be intense as I did with a number of other
> techniques from the school.
>
> I'm not sure what scientific explanations people
> have for the experiences I have had but I would
> like to hear more about that.


This is the kind of thing I'm talking about, and I noticed it in the CV practitioners I met as well--sure, you might see purple lights and feel vibrations, but so what? One of the CV practitioners talked about seeing sacred geometries while meditating. That's lovely, but she seemed to attribute meaning to it, when the vast majority of meditation approaches I've been exposed to explicitly discourage indulging or attaching to experiences like that--they're not intrinsically a sign of development or that things are going well. I feel like there is this tendency to say 'well I saw colors, etc. etc. so this must be the real deal,' but there are all kinds of perceptual and energetic experiences that can happen that don't have anything to do with enlightenment (if you buy into that idea at all). Zen even has a term for them--'makyo' and students are explicitly encouraged to pay no attention to them.

I got the impression that there was a lot of spiritual ego going on as a result of these experiences--feeling like CV was superior to most other approaches, a sense of having special powers or abilities, etc.

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