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Re: Samuel Sagan Clairvision
Posted by: grok ()
Date: June 18, 2022 11:52PM

I think I understand what you mean, metanoia. I have experienced both hypnosis and meditation and I agree that they aren't really the same - at least they aren't exactly the same. My experience was that there was more of a "similar but different" type of feeling about the headspace between the two. I agree that the two are trying to induce a particular state of mind or consciousness, and perhaps it has something to do with intention when going into the head spaces. I'm not sure, but I kind of think they may be talking about the type, or at least the category (like theta, delta waves) of brain waves produced in these states are similar to each other.


metanoia Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The one thing I will disagree with, which is maybe
> a quibble, is that I don't think meditation is
> necessarily the same thing as hypnosis or trance.
> I think there are practices that do essentially
> function as hypnotic inductions, but by and large
> they are practices that are aiming to induce a
> particular state of mind or state of
> consciousness, whereas in many ways the best
> meditation practice instructions I have found have
> been about not seeking to change or manipulate
> experience in any way. The way that CV seems to
> talk about gaining or developing abilities, states
> of consciousness, or special experiences certainly
> seems to place them in the realm of attempting to
> manipulate people's internal state, however, and
> also struck me as rather acquisitive, rather than
> teaching people how to let go and let be.

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Re: Recommendation, survivor groups Re: Samuel Sagan Clairvision & IST Practitioners (Inner Space Techniques)
Posted by: grok ()
Date: June 19, 2022 12:02AM

mesche, it sounds like you have found some healing through support groups.. I'm glad to hear that that has been helpful for you.

So far I personally have not had good experiences with support groups in trying to deal with leaving Clairvision. For me, I think it has a lot to do with groups feeling a lot like the group confessionals we were made to do in CV - they feel too similar, I don't necessarily trust other people in the group - are they REALLY not going to share what I say with anyone? There's certainly what feels like a huge risk here after what I've already been through.

Plus I don't live in a major urban area and it's been hard to find cult support groups led by licensed people. I came across one group that was led by "coaches" who supposedly had specific training about cult recovery, and although at that time I felt like I really needed help, I wasn't willing to submit myself to someone who isn't licensed, I didn't feel protected in any way - some of the language in the contract/waiver they wanted me to sign made it feel like CV all over again too - protection for the "coaches" and/or the organization but none really for the individuals.

What has been most healing for me is individual therapy with a licensed therapist who actually has education and background in cult dynamics. That plus, I was lucky enough to reconnect with another former Clairvision student (I was absolutely positive they were not in the school anymore, I remembered them leaving shortly after I did). Although I certainly wouldn't recommend this to everyone (bc seriously, who knows if the person who claims to be out is really out or if they are trying to garner more info about you to take back to the school), it was incredibly healing for me to talk with someone who already knew the language of Clairvision and what really went on there, someone who had had similar experiences.

I personally wouldn't trust it if someone contacted me here in this forum and wanted to connect - I'm way too paranoid about other Clairvision students/members for that after what I went through. And I'm certain that CV people monitor this thread.



mesche Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I recommend other survivors of the school to seek
> out groups that are not specifically for former
> members of the school. And to not tell anyone who
> has been in the school about it. It can be very
> healing.

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Re: Samuel Sagan Clairvision
Posted by: grok ()
Date: June 20, 2022 10:01PM

ON CLAIRVISION LANGUAGE

Having one's own special language is one of the ways cults lure people deeper into their clutches.

Using the Clairvision terms/language (again, much, but not all, of their language is outlined in their book A Language to Map Consciousness that is available for free download from their website) can make you feel special and like you belong. Clairvision encourages its members to become fluent in their "language of consciousness," the faster you do, the more you will feel like you fit in. I saw this in myself and others once I took the time to reflect on my early experiences with Clairvision.

A quote that addresses this use of special language in cults:

"It used to be, back in the late 1980s when I took my first study exam, that you had to be able to define terms such as "gohyaku jintengo" and explain when Nichiren threw off his transient identity and revealed himself as the Buddha of kuon ganjo (and yeah, you have to know what kuon ganjo meant, too) and stuff like that. It really reinforced the "private language" that effectively isolated new members - concepts that don't translate directly, but that are incredibly emotionally laden and meaningful within the group, which can only be understood within the group. So if you want to have a conversation about one of these newly discovered concepts that is setting your mind on fire (as a new interest will), you can only have that conversation with a fellow cult member. No one else understands; they don't even understand the words you need to use! The new members learn fast."

From:
[www.reddit.com]

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Re: Samuel Sagan Clairvision
Posted by: grok ()
Date: June 20, 2022 10:05PM

USE OF THOUGHT TERMINATING CLICHES IN CLAIRVISION

Other red flags you can look for in cult-like groups or with "therapists" (aka IST practitioners) are thought terminating cliches.

A though terminating cliche (also called thought-stopper or bumper sticker logic) is a commonly used phrase, sometimes used to pass folk wisdom, used to quell cognitive dissonance. Cognitive dissonance is the perception of contradictory information.

The thought terminating cliche's most basic function is to stop an argument from going anything further. A thought terminating cliche is often catchy and sharp. They do not add factual input to the conversation and are simply attempts to get someone to stop talking, debating, or asking questions.

The term was popularized by Robert Jay Lifton in his book "Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism". Lifton said, “The language of the totalist environment is characterized by the thought-terminating cliché. The most far-reaching and complex of human problems are compressed into brief, highly reductive, definitive-sounding phrases, easily memorized and easily expressed. These become the start and finish of any ideological analysis.” [Lifton, Robert J., "Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism", page 429 ] [

What are the thought terminating cliches Clairvision frequently uses? Here's a list I came up with... those of you who have been in Clairvision can probably add even more to this list:

The 2 most insidious:
-Samuel says...
-Samuel said....
...these are usually followed by something that may or may not be taken completely out of context, or may be one of the things that Samuel later changed his mind about.

Others frequently heard within the group:
-That's just your samskaras talking
-It's in the space
-It's not in the space
-The space changed
-It's (the space) not landing
-It's what the Energy is pointing to/it's what the Energy wants.
-Get comfortable with being uncomfortable
-People only disrespect you if you let them
-People are mirroring your own reality to you through their behavior
-Whatever problems you're experiencing are a reflection of your internal state
-Some part of you chose this
-What part of you wanted this?
-You didn’t put enough Will into it/you need to put more Will into it
-It will be good for your spiritual development

If any of you have any others you frequently heard, I would be interested to hear them.

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Spiritual Abuse Re: Samuel Sagan Clairvision & IST Practitioners (Inner Space Techniques)
Posted by: grok ()
Date: June 20, 2022 10:19PM

SPIRITUAL ABUSE AND THE SPIRITUAL PRACTICES OF CLAIRVISION

I very much feel like what happened to me at Clairvision is spiritual abuse.

Matthew Remski says: "Spiritual abuse is not special or more damaging than any other type of abuse. but it does carry with it a particular wound. While physical abuse can disrupt bodily integrity and sexual abuse can humiliate one’s sense of intimacy, spiritual abuse is an attack on hope and the capacity for mystery."
[matthewremski.medium.com]

One thing that made leaving very hard was that I still wanted to have a spiritual practice. But who to trust? What practices to do? I even briefly considered joining other spiritual groups, but the thought of accidentally joining yet another cult was terrifying. Sometimes doing some of the CV practices re-traumatized me yet again, and of course that's not helpful... so what to do?

The Clairvision school would like you to believe that their practices are unique. One thing that really helped me was to look more deeply at the Clairvision practices themselves and try to determine which spiritual or religious tradition they had actually come from. Someone earlier in the thread said that they remembered CV acknowledging where the practices came from, but my own experience didn't match with that, so I started to look more deeply into that.

Below is what I've come up with so far.... Although I went through the instructor training, I was never an instructor, but the more I sit with this, the more it seems like the Clairvision work is appropriated from other traditions - they just take it and repackage it as their own with talk about how their "Technical Advisors" (Archive spiritual beings not in physical form) have showed them how to do the practices.

It helped me to see this so I could pick and choose which practices had actually worked for me and then do them from a more traditional standpoint (the original tradition, not the CV tradition).

-Throat friction - Ujjayi breath, not exactly the same, Clairvision's position in the throat is just slightly different from Ujjayi breath but similar enough to compare them

-Night Practice - this is essentially yoga nidra, but it could also possibly have ties to Tibetan dream yoga

-Neti - has been around for centuries as part of the yogic system

-Humming - used by multiple traditions including yogic and Tibetan

-Candle gazing (no blinking exercises) - yogic practice trataka

-Etheric practices in general (of which there are quite a lot) reminded me a lot of other practices I have done or read about in the Taoist tradition. Some of the etheric practices included:
etheric excretion
meridian tracing
feeling the energy between hands - vertically, horizontally, cosmic antenna
channel release
hand rubbing
feeling vibration in the 3rd eye and hands
tuning into plants/other living being vs inanimate objects
tuning in while taking a bath
tuning with while working with or eating food
releasing energy into the earth
absorbing vital nutrients from food just by touching it
yawning release

-Vision spaces - Tantra eye gazing practices

-Dowsing - is an ancient practice that was used by multiple different traditions

-IST (Inner Space Techniques) itself - not too different from other regression sessions I had long ago with a non-CV practitioner I'm sure Clairvision would call "New Age". Regression sessions are in no way new, and I didn't find IST somehow very different from other traditions like they wanted me to believe it was

-Fast yoga postures - hatha yoga sped up (this definitely never made sense to me, why would you speed up hatha? I thought the slowness was part of the why it worked the way it did, but it was a reflection of how everything in CV needs to be intense and fast moving)

-Uplifting - so far this is the only practice I found that had some uniqueness about it. Although, I do feel like the upwards movement is very similar to other movements in slow martial arts like tai chi and chi gung that go upward along central channel.

There are certainly more practices than just this within the Clairvision school, but this hits on some of the biggest ones. Again, if any of you have thoughts about where the Clairvision practices actually come from I would be interested to hear.

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Re: Samuel Sagan Clairvision & Suicide
Posted by: grok ()
Date: June 21, 2022 11:14PM

I recently learned about someone I knew in the school who committed suicide. This was absolutely shocking to me because this person was extremely dedicated to the school and not someone I ever witnessed or heard having mental issues. But maybe his dedication was part of the problem? I don't know.

I checked with mesche and it's not the same person they knew who killed themselves... so there are at least 2 Clairvision students we know of so far who ended up committing suicide, apparently even more who attempted but did not succeed. Whether Clairvision was the main reason they did it, who knows, but I would be surprised if being a part of Clairvision did not at least contribute to their ultimate demise.

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Re: Samuel Sagan Clairvision & IST Practitioners (Inner Space Techniques)
Posted by: grok ()
Date: June 21, 2022 11:32PM

Remembered another one:

"It's all just part of The Work"

This was said by a lead admin person to a friend of mine after she reported to the school that her IST practitioner had sexually seduced her spouse using confidential information from IST sessions about her own (client) weaknesses and vulnerabilities. The IST practitioner also used other information to gain a manipulative advantage with the spouse that the client provided to the IST practitioner about the spouse's mental state (not stable at that point in time) when she asked the IST practitioner to back off (the IST practitioner did NOT back off). Somehow my friend thought the IST practitioner had her best interest at heart, when really the only thing she (the IST practitioner) cared about was her own sexual gratification.


grok Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> USE OF THOUGHT TERMINATING CLICHES IN CLAIRVISION

> The 2 most insidious:
> -Samuel says...
> -Samuel said....
> ...these are usually followed by something that
> may or may not be taken completely out of context,
> or may be one of the things that Samuel later
> changed his mind about.
>
> Others frequently heard within the group:
> -That's just your samskaras talking
> -It's in the space
> -It's not in the space
> -The space changed
> -It's (the space) not landing
> -It's what the Energy is pointing to/it's what the
> Energy wants.
> -Get comfortable with being uncomfortable
> -People only disrespect you if you let them
> -People are mirroring your own reality to you
> through their behavior
> -Whatever problems you're experiencing are a
> reflection of your internal state
> -Some part of you chose this
> -What part of you wanted this?
> -You didn’t put enough Will into it/you need to
> put more Will into it
> -It will be good for your spiritual development
>
> If any of you have any others you frequently
> heard, I would be interested to hear them.

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Re: Samuel Sagan Clairvision & IST Practitioners (Inner Space Techniques)
Posted by: mesche ()
Date: June 22, 2022 02:03AM

There was a lot of gossip and drama and loss of normal boundaries around sex and relationships. Plus a lot of misunderstandings and different ways of dealing with any kind of interactions and attraction or judgment and boundaries due to cultural differences. Mixed with the intensity of the exercises and people there it could get ugly.

In one intensive students could find themselves suddenly dealing with anything from hedonism to prudishness the way it was expressed in different countries and family structures. And without good guidelines or good supervision to help deal with it.


But Grok. Don't quote me unless you have asked for permission.



grok Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Remembered another one:
>
> "It's all just part of The Work"
>
> This was said by a lead admin person to a friend
> of mine after she reported to the school that her
> IST practitioner had sexually seduced her spouse
> using confidential information from IST sessions
> about her own (client) weaknesses and
> vulnerabilities. The IST practitioner also used
> other information to gain a manipulative advantage
> with the spouse that the client provided to the
> IST practitioner about the spouse's mental state
> (not stable at that point in time) when she asked
> the IST practitioner to back off (the IST
> practitioner did NOT back off). Somehow my friend
> thought the IST practitioner had her best interest
> at heart, when really the only thing she (the IST
> practitioner) cared about was her own sexual
> gratification.

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Re: Samuel Sagan Clairvision & IST Practitioners (Inner Space Techniques)
Posted by: grok ()
Date: June 22, 2022 03:30AM

To clarify, the below quote from me was not meant to quote mesche... sorry if it came across that way


mesche Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> But Grok. Don't quote me unless you have asked for
> permission.
>
>
>
> grok Wrote:
> -------------------------------------------------------
> > Remembered another one:
> >
> > "It's all just part of The Work"

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Re: Samuel Sagan Clairvision & IST Practitioners (Inner Space Techniques)
Posted by: mesche ()
Date: June 22, 2022 03:49AM

This bit I meant: "I checked with mesche and it's not the same person they knew who killed themselves... so there are at least 2 Clairvision students we know of so far who ended up committing suicide, apparently even more who attempted but did not succeed. "


So much was never private in CV, including private conversations on email. That's why I don't share most personal information here.It might seem harmless and I'm sure you mean no harm but I would like to be asked.




grok Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> To clarify, the below quote from me was not meant
> to quote mesche... sorry if it came across that
> way
>
>
> mesche Wrote:
> -------------------------------------------------------
> > But Grok. Don't quote me unless you have asked
> for
> > permission.
> >
> >
> >
> > grok Wrote:
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------
> > > Remembered another one:
> > >
> > > "It's all just part of The Work"

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