Current Page: 2 of 3
Re: Samuel Sagan Clairvision
Posted by: jowhite ()
Date: February 12, 2012 03:07PM

I was part of this group for some months and would happily share my awful experiences there with any one who is interested. I just survived with my life intact!

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Samuel Sagan Clairvision
Posted by: Sparky ()
Date: February 18, 2012 02:12AM

Bump

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Samuel Sagan Clairvision
Posted by: misters ()
Date: March 08, 2012 02:23AM

Jowhite, I would be VERY interested in hearing about your experiences.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Samuel Sagan Clairvision
Posted by: ashleylee ()
Date: March 09, 2012 11:00AM

I did some research on the CVS after going to the classes for a while and found on google a court case which happened in NSW Australia which involved Sammuel Sagan ,Orna Lankry her father who owns and sells major property in Australia and another women who had died and her property. It seemed there was trouble back in Australia over property use for the school and some lady who been in the school and had died and her property. You can google the story and read more .
I went to the classes they teach a mix of approaches with influences from Hinduism Budhhism Christianity and other texts they dont mention the jewsih practices and beliefs and its sort of a mix of what the leader has put together. The reason I left them was because it felt like it was a potential cult situation for vulnerable persons and they run expensive workshops. I think I felt upset that I had some friends who went there and they were upset too
it is a little shady there for young people. I thought hard about it and for young people it is a potentiial night mare.
I think fpr older people it seemed like a cruise but the young people i saw hardship suffering and a bit if pain in how ther ineract with persons and the social heirarchy megasphere type stuff. Young people get hurt in their school they talk about sex being a solution for too many things often they tell young people you need sex more etc type advice
I dont go any more for a while now I feel that the detriment of being there and the attitude they had to me as not being good enough etc is losing its significance. The leader and his leaders under him will get the new people to do a lot of slop work for them paint clean wash move sew whatever they like in a heirarchy work distribution
they are not kind to all there visitors and i am talking paying visitors if they dont like you they will not drive you home you can find your own way.
I met someone they did that too. i have met some people from Australia who left the school because they felt upset at how some really delicate situations where handled.
I think that for older aged people the cvs is almost harmless
but I saw some young people really go through it

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Samuel Sagan Clairvision
Posted by: gnomad1618 ()
Date: April 05, 2013 04:40AM

I spent over 5 years with Clairvision (CV), including extended stays in the U.S. and in Australia and including a very active local community of practitioners that met at least twice a week to do practices (in the US). I left the group for very personal reasons which had nothing to do with conflicts with Samuel Sagan, the teachings of the school, or with any of the practitioners. Nobody has tried to get me to come back (I think this disqualifies it from being considered a cult?)

I would like to address a couple of points here because, while CV is not for everybody, those who are feeling a draw to the work should definitely explore it, and I would hate for people to garner a negative impression based on the words of some people who didn't get the most out of the school.

First the cost: this is simple. I have been to many "workshops" or "retreats" which cost upwards of $500 or more for a weekend of experience. As of this writing, a seven day stay at CV in California costs $1,150. Considering that this covers your accommodations, three meals a day and 11-12 hours per day of instruction, practices and lecture, the cost is negligible. The money goes back into the school. Samuel, as far as I can tell, has precious few material attachments.

The aggression:
Of course, I do not know the circumstances, but it is important to understand that individuals are autonomous in the group. As there are no overarching guiding principles from the school which dictate behaviour (there are a handful of no-no's), what emerges are authentic interactions between participants. Neither Samuel, nor any of the resident volunteers are going to placate anybody going through an intense emotional process. Tough love isn't rare.

And believe this - if you spend a week at CV, you will be going through emotional processes. And I am not talking about blaming Mommy/ Daddy/ boyfriend/ girlfriend for your current troubles. I'm talking about gut wrenching subconsciously repressed grief, anger, traumas, et.al.. But the amazing thing that, as much darkness you face and clear from your being, an equal or greater amount of light is there to replace it.

"They teach a mix of approaches" / " they have definate ways they want a person to think about themselves and the world which are a dogmatic "
No. They teach a dual approach. It is relatively simplistic, yet incredibly potent. Adhering to cosmology they present in lecture is not a requirement. A motto of the school has been for a long time "See for yourself, know for yourself." or "Why listen to what other people say about spiritual reality? We are going to give you the tools to go discover for yourself." The cosmology is always meant to be understood as a model, or a map, and it is implicit that it is only that.

"money is involved and your time is in demand they get you to do a lot of their work and you must want to do that or else"
This does not fit with my experience. Either money is involved, or your time is in demand. Not both. I spent a month at the US HQ which I paid approx $1000 a week to be there (See above). I spent 5 months at the AUS HQ and did not give CV a nickel. I did give them an incredible amount of my time and energy/ work, but it was rewarded in multifarious ways - some tangible, some less so.

"Young people get hurt in their school they talk about sex being a solution for too many things"
?!?
This seems to be taken out of context from a limited perspective. I was involved during a lecture cycle on sexuality and never heard sex being referred to as a solution for anything. For certain repressed types, sex is an activity that can break open shells that keep us from feeling deeply. A solution? Hell no. There are no "solutions" in CV. Just process.

Certain young people may lack the maturity to face some of the issues that come up. I have actually been envious of some of the younger people who are heavily involved in the school, wishing I had found CV sooner, saving me years of aimless wandering.

Re: the people who have bad experiences
I saw many people come and go - I saw people facing repressed traumas they weren't prepared to face (are we ever prepared to face repressed traumas?) - I heard about volatile situations between practitioners when some of those buried emotions came to the surface - and felt at times that I wanted to punch my partner in the face. But I also witnessed the majority of those emotions come to the surface in an incredibly nurturing and supportive space - far, far greater, in fact, than I've ever witnessed from any other modality which deals with emotional trauma, and I am an alternative health practitoner and have experienced many modalities dealing with emotions.

Unfortunately, if you have a repressed trauma, it is affecting your life in a negative way. It is potentially keeping you from experiencing the fullness of your being. Do you want to clear traumas? even if you do not know you have them? If you want to do it effectively, it is going to hurt. Often you have to experience, fully, the very emotion you have been repressing. Sometimes this takes a long time to process. It may be a dark process. But as I said, there is an equal or greater amount of light to help you through. But many people only focus on the bad part. And it is hard to talk about the positive experiences you have which are beyond words. And sadly, it is often repressed trauma that is keeping you from the wordless spiritual experiences.

A simple truth is that a week with CV has the potential to take you farther in your emotional process than a decade with a psychologist.

It is frequently said that Clairvision is not for the faint of heart.
There is no lovey-dovey-feel-good-new age bs.
It is spirituality with teeth.
It isn't always comfortable,
but I have had the most glorious spiritual experiences with that school,
words will simply fail to relay the possibilities if you are willing to engage CV fully.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Samuel Sagan Clairvision
Posted by: yasmin ()
Date: April 06, 2013 12:56AM

Gnomad168,

There are many high demand religious groups that are actually much harder to stay in than to leave. In fact some groups routinely kick people out who 'don't make the grade" in one way or another. Not trying to get you back does not necessarily mean a group is "safe" or "good" imo.
Two areas that I would be grateful for more information from you.

The first refers to people who you describe as "not ready" .

Does the group take money from anybody, or do they attempt some kind of psychological assessment to prevent people who "aren't ready" from attending courses? Are people with PTSD, childhood abuse and trauma etc screened in any way? Is anyone supervising the group who is a mental health professional, working under licensure?
What does the group do if they induce PTSD in a client through regression , or does this never happen?
Does the group take any responsibility for those who appear to have been harmed through regression? Or is it just a case of "Ah well, they weren't ready; onto the next client with money...:?"
Or is no one ever harmed?
What exactly have you seen happen to people who "weren't ready"? What kind of symptoms did they have? Do they become suicidal? Is there any follow up with these people after the week ends?
(By the way, the idea that regression to bad events is helpful to all people is questioned quite a bit by some modern psychologists .)

If a psychologist treats someone they have to follow a strict code of ethics. This is to protect a client from being manipulated by the power holder, for example for sexual favors, money beyond fees, or free labor.
Does the group have a strict code of ethics, or is it ok to expect people to donate extra money, free labor, sexual favors etc?

Would be grateful for more details about these matters.
Thanks,
Yasmin



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/06/2013 12:58AM by yasmin.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Samuel Sagan Clairvision
Posted by: gnomad1618 ()
Date: April 07, 2013 09:58AM

--- Not trying to get you back does not necessarily mean a group is "safe" or "good" imo.

Fair enough. There is a reason I added a question mark in disqualifying CV as a cult, as I have not researched cults in general and didn't look at the critera used to determine one on this site. And like definitions of cults, whether something is good or bad for someone is also a matter of perspective. (some dictionaries define Hinduism as a cult) CV was good for me. It was not good for some of the other people who have posted here. Is anyone to blame?


--- Does the group take money from anybody, or do they attempt some kind of psychological assessment to prevent people who "aren't ready" from attending courses? Are people with PTSD, childhood abuse and trauma etc screened in any way? Is anyone supervising the group who is a mental health professional, working under licensure?

First, what I mean by "not ready." I have encountered this phrase within many New Agey groups and have typically treated it with disdain. Here, it is not a matter of "Oh, it didn't work? Well you just weren't ready." I said "certain young people" and I am referring to those immature types who are far more concerned with external reality and image, etc. than with deep introspection.

Prior to the first weekend, which is not a regression workshop, many screening-type of questions are asked which might indicate a marked instability, which (if I recall correctly) includes questions regarding a history of drug abuse (including single doses of psychedelics), pyschotropic medications, history of mental illness, etc. I don't recall much else as it was some time ago. I'm unsure if they ever turn anyone away, but I do know that they pay close attention to those individuals as they go into processes.

People with PTSD, abuse and trauma are very likely to receive significant benefit from CV techniques. There is no reason to prevent them from attending.

Recall that Samuel Sagan was a Medical Doctor in France, though he does not maintain licensure. There are many healthcare professionals who do the CV work. There is not a resident (orthodox) licensed mental healthcare provider permanently on premises. But with all due respect, because I recognize it is a valid concern, the prospect is a bit comical from a CV perspective, and it would take direct experience with CV practices to understand why.


--- What does the group do if they induce PTSD in a client through regression , or does this never happen?

I'm a bit unsure what you mean about inducing PTSD through regression. It doesn't make someone run off and cower in the corner, if that is what you are asking.


--- Does the group take any responsibility for those who appear to have been harmed through regression? Or is it just a case of "Ah well, they weren't ready; onto the next client with money...:?" Or is no one ever harmed?

I know of no one "harmed" through regression in CV. It is important to remember with the school, that nothing is added. There is no hypnosis, suggestion, etc. I would have to reveal the proprietary knowledge of the school to elaborate, which I will not do, but nothing emerges which is not already in the client's psyche.

One thing to consider is that, after going through the basic "ISIS 101" course, one becomes qualified to participate in local CV communities and practice ISIS with one another, or to practice on friends. It takes considerably longer (years) for the school to qualify you to charge money for ISIS services ("Inner Spaces Interactive Sourcing", has nothing to do with the Egyptian goddess)


--- What exactly have you seen happen to people who "weren't ready"? What kind of symptoms did they have? Do they become suicidal? Is there any follow up with these people after the week ends?
(By the way, the idea that regression to bad events is helpful to all people is questioned quite a bit by some modern psychologists .)

I saw one woman come to an ISIS 101 with a friend. She had no idea what she was getting into - did no research/ no prior exposure - and thought it was another standard run-of-the-mill New Age tooty-fruity-let's-embrace-the-earth-and-change-the-world-with-our-intention retreats and actually thought there was going to be a Spa. She did not have a good time. She did not finish the week and spent much of her time in her room because she wasn't ready to face what was inside her. It is always what is inside the person, it does not come from CV techniques.

I do not know what you would expect from a follow up. What could one do? Refer someone to a psychologist so they can talk about it? Pychiatrist for meds? Is CV actually responsible for someone's mental well-being? Is any health care provider? I have seen bi-polar diagnosed people go off the deep end from doing vigorous chi kung (outside CV). Is anyone to blame?

It is much more typical for people to have experienced ISIS from one of the qualfied practitioners before-hand, or at least to have read the website and know what is involved with ISIS before diving into a week-long intensive (up to 20 sessions). You can get a pretty good idea about what you might be in for from the website.

To your BTW. There seems to be an assumption behind your statement that orthodox psychologists have the right answers about the workings of the totality of an indivdual's being. I am not necessarily suggesting that CV does, but my snarkiness would suggest that the reason some modern psychologists don't find regression helpful is because they are unequipped to deal with the situation and actually help someone release the trauma, and certainly unequpped to give their patients the tools for them to have their own "profound spiritual realizations" (from CV website) about the nature of their trauma, instead of hearing some textbook diagnosis. But I will also restate that CV is not for everyone. I also seriously doubt that anyone in the school would ever suggest that CV was for everyone. In fact, I might state very plainly that if you require that your mental, emotional and spiritual growth to be supervised by a licensed mental healthcare provider, CV isn't for you.


--- If a psychologist treats someone they have to follow a strict code of ethics. This is to protect a client from being manipulated by the power holder, for example for sexual favors, money beyond fees, or free labor.
Does the group have a strict code of ethics, or is it ok to expect people to donate extra money, free labor, sexual favors etc?

I did mention that there were a few no-no's. But this is another important point. I stated previously that the individuals in the group are autonomous. There is no power holder when you are at a CV intensive. The participants are practicing ISIS on each other. One person is the facilitator for another, then they immediately switch. There is equality. The last part of your question is so far removed from what goes on at CV that I am almost at a loss of words.



I rarely recommend CV to anyone. It is not for everyone. It is for people looking for intensity in their spiritual development.

It is for people who are tired of trying to discern the truth from angel channelers, people who have done all of the chakra meditations and found no benefit, people who are tired of visualizations and affirmations, and for people who want substance in their spirituality but don't want to adhere to any particular dogmas or feel that they are missing something because they don't speak the language native to the practices. Most people who persist in CV have already been exposed to several other traditions or groups and have been actively involved in spiritual pursuits for many years and found other systems of knowledge lacking for one reason or an other.

Above all, I would only recommend a Clairvision ISIS Intensive for someone who is ready to face the burning fire of consciousness and to face their own fearsome Threshold Guardians. If that prospect gives you pause, you might consider staying away. If it excites you...

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Samuel Sagan Clairvision
Posted by: rrmoderator ()
Date: April 07, 2013 09:28PM

gnomad1618:

You seem to be here in an effort to apologize and/or promote CV.

Please read the rules you agreed to before posting here.

Preaching your beliefs is against the rules.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Samuel Sagan Clairvision
Posted by: visioneerie ()
Date: May 29, 2015 09:59AM

Yasmin,
Although your post is 2 years old, I'd like to address your 2 areas of concern as I still see them as valid today as they were then .....

"Two areas that I would be grateful for more information from you."
The first refers to people who you describe as "not ready" .

Does the group take money from anybody, or do they attempt some kind of psychological assessment to prevent people who "aren't ready" from attending courses?
A SELF-ASSESSMENT QUESTIONAIRE IS USED TO SCREEN OUT PEOPLE WHO MAY HAVE CERTAIN TYPES OF SEVERE MENTAL HEALTH PROBLEMS WHICH MAY NOT BE RECOMMENDED FOR THIS TYPE OF EXPERIENCE.... POSSIBLY SCHIZOFRENIA, OR SIMILAR....
Are people with PTSD, childhood abuse and trauma etc screened in any way?
JUST AS STATED ABOVE, HOWEVER PEOPLE WITH PTSD/CHILDHOOD ABUSE/TRAUMA ISSUES ARE NOT DISCCOURAGED FROM ATTENDING. THESE ISSUES ARE DEALT WITH IN THE PHASES OF THE SCHOOLS REGRESSION THERAPY.
Is anyone supervising the group who is a mental health professional, working under licensure? NO. THE PUBLIC RETREAT ATTENDEES ARE EXPECTED TO WORK WITH EACH OTHER, SUPERVISED BY TRAINED STUDENT PRACTICIONERS FROM THE SCHOOL. THESE PRACTITIONERS HAVE VARYING DEGREES OF TRAINING AND SKILL LEVEL, WHICH I MYSELF DO BRING INTO QUESTION ON OCCASION. SOME PRACTIONERS ARE EXCELLENT, SOME ARE MEDIOCRE AT BEST.
What does the group do if they induce PTSD in a client through regression , or does this never happen? IT DOES HAPPEN AT TIMES. THIS IS DEALT WITH IN THE SCHOOLS REGRESSION SESSIONS.
Does the group take any responsibility for those who appear to have been harmed through regression? NO, THERE IS A DISCLAIMER TO BE SIGNED UPON REGISTRATION.
THE SCHOOLS POSITION IS THAT IT IS INCUMBENT UPON EACH PARTICIPANT TO DEAL WITH THEIR OWN PARTICULAR ISSUES.
Or is it just a case of "Ah well, they weren't ready; onto the next client with money...:?" MONEY IS NOT A CENTRAL ISSUE IN THIS SCHOOL, UNLIKE MOST ORGANIZATIONS WE COME ACROSS THESE DAYS. THERE ARE PREREQUISITES AND GRADIENTS FOR CLASSES, AND THERE IS NO WAY TO ADVANCE FASTER BY TRYING TO SPEND MORE MONEY. IT IS NOT AND CAN NOT BE DONE THAT WAY IN THIS SCHOOL.
Or is no one ever harmed? THE SCHOOL HOLDS EACH PARTICIPANT RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR OWN RESPECTIVE ISSUES.
What exactly have you seen happen to people who "weren't ready"?
THEY LEFT THE CLASSES AND DEPARTED THE SCHOOL GROUNDS - AT THEIR OWN EXPENSE OF TRAVEL AND TRANSPORTATION.
What kind of symptoms did they have? PTSD, STRESS FROM TRAUMAS.
Do they become suicidal? WHO ACTUALLY KNOWS, THERE IS NO FOLLOWUP.
Is there any follow up with these people after the week ends? NO. ONLY WHEN THE PARTICIPANT INITIATES CONTACT.
(By the way, the idea that regression to bad events is helpful to all people is questioned quite a bit by some modern psychologists .)
THE SCHOOLS POSITION IS THAT IT IS HELPFUL TO ALL PEOPLE.
If a psychologist treats someone they have to follow a strict code of ethics. This is to protect a client from being manipulated by the power holder, for example for sexual favors, money beyond fees, or free labor.
Does the group have a strict code of ethics, THE GROUP DOES HOLD TO HIGH ETHICAL STANDARDS,
or is it ok to expect people to donate extra money, NO DONATIONS OF EXTRA MONEY IS POSSIBLE,
free labor, NO LABOR OF ANY KIND IS ALLOWED EXCEPT FROM ADVANCED LEVEL STUDENTS WHO ARE PRACTICING ADVANCED DISCIPLINES, AND NOT ALL REQUESTS FROM THESE STUDENTS TO PROVIDE FREE LABOR IS ACCEPTED.
sexual favors etc? SEXUAL OFFERS FROM STUDENT TO TEACHER WAS OBSERVED 1 TIME MANY YEARS AGO, SEXUAL OFFERS FROM TEACHER TO STUDENT HAS NEVER BEEN OBSERVED BY ME.
I HAVE 10 YEARS EXPERIENCE WITH THIS SCHOOL, AND CONTINUE TO PRACTICE THEIR TECHNIQUES WITH SUCCESS IN MY EVERYDAY LIFE.

Would be grateful for more details about these matters.
Thanks,
Yasmin

Options: ReplyQuote
S. Sagan published works
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: June 29, 2015 09:30PM

One review of

Quote

http://www.amazon.com/Entity-Possession-Freeing-Negative-Influences/product-reviews/0892816120/ref=cm_cr_dp_qt_hist_two?ie=UTF8&filterBy=addTwoStar&showViewpoints=0

31 of 43 people found the following review helpful

2.0 out of 5 stars Disempowering, July 28, 2008



By

Cindy MELKI "Risen"


Verified Purchase(What's this?)

This review is from: Entity Possession: Freeing the Energy Body of Negative Influences (Paperback)

Having read Dr. Sagan's book and expecting to understand what an "entity" truly is, I find that unfortunately he missed the point.
His book is in fact mostly a manual of sessions he had with his patients, a very little part is devoted to the explanation per se. He goes on and on and on transcribing his sessions, we read the symptoms, but the cause or the true constitution of an "entity" is never made clear. It remains a mystery, and what is even more frustrating is that he affirms that no one can free you of these "entities" (???) except himself or his followers/practitioners.

And moreover, in the rare cases where he is not transcribing, he is just reciting what others (Chinese and other cultures) have to say about this.
In short, and according to him, any energy blockage, any - I dare say - symptom related to serious mental disorders like schizophrenia for example, will, to him, be classified as an "entity" that "speaks", and what is even more frustrating is that he affirms that you can catch these entities anywhere and at any point in your life, especially if you go into hospital to give birth for example.

This is a DISEMPOWERING book. I definitely do not recommend it.

Samuel Sagan's ouevre

[www.amazon.com]
Editorial Reviews


Review Entity Posession

[www.amazon.com]

"This book helps you understand what entity possession is, the various forms it takes . . . [and] how you can release these entities." (New Living, October 2001)

“This is a fascinating exploration of a little known but important aspect of the afterlife and our relationship to it. Far from being spooky or supernatural, Entity Possession examines the natural and common events that trigger entities and their parasitic attachment. . . . It is a fundamental book for those interested in the paranormal. It is clear, interesting, rich in cultural perspective, and written by someone involved but objective.” (Galina Pembroke, New View, May 2006)


About the Author

Dr. Samuel Sagan studied medicine at Paris 5 Faculty of Medicine and Sanskrit at Censier Sorbonne Nouvelle University.

He was awarded a silver medal for his medical thesis and was elected a member of the French Society of the History of Medicine.

Dr. Sagan currently lives in the United States where he directs the Clairvision School.

From a review of Entity Possession by Samuel Sagan

a reply

Quote

Initial post: Mar 20, 2009 3:01:07 PM PDT

C. Demarest says:

I read this book and thought it was very good. Samuel Sagan does not say that all mental disorders and all problems are caused by entitied, but some are. I think it is difficult to tell which is an entity and which is physiological, but he does not say that everything is. He even says that entity posession is relatively rare. It is certainly not disempowering. Samuel Sagan does not claim to know everything, but in this book he tells you his experiences and what he does know.

Options: ReplyQuote
Current Page: 2 of 3


Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.
This forum powered by Phorum.