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Re: Samuel Sagan Clairvision
Posted by: mesche ()
Date: September 14, 2021 08:49AM

metanoia Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Grok, Mesche, these details are incredibly helpful
> to hear--feeling much better about my decision to
> not get involved. A few follow-up questions, if
> you're willing to answer them:

About the apocalyptic flavor. Many of the students I met trained for the future and the big technological changes that are happening right now in our world as discussed in the books he wrote. That meant training for a war that will come in a few hundred years where masters from the archive will be born and fight for humanity's freedom. That bit I actually liked even though I don't believe the books are anything but fiction. The way algorithms are created to keep us addicted by making the world into a Skinner Box for instance is worth joining the good fight for to prevent. Maybe just not literally like in the books.

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Re: Samuel Sagan Clairvision
Posted by: mesche ()
Date: September 14, 2021 09:23AM

>
Quote
mesche
> Some became suicidal when i was in the school.
> Getting a depression was something to expect I was
> told by some older students if you did the work
> long enough and aspired for Elightenment. Because
> no one became enlightened in the school. Only
> Samuel according to him and only he would be able
> to see. No one had this big moment of connecting
> with their body of immortality and being able to
> tap from it at will. Everyone seemed to miss their
> moment in time or not experience it in this
> lifetime and according to some it only came ones
> ever no matter how many incarnations on earth you
> went through. So if you missed your moment there
> was nothing to do ever you would have lost
> everything. I heard of at least five people being
> deeply depressed because of it. Two for sure tried
> killing themselves and one succeeded but might
> have had a mental health issue that made it
> happen. Others started behaving odd and out of
> character suddenly, myself included.
> Only Samuel could see the moment coming it was
> told and would approach people he thought would
> have the will to succeed. Right.
>
>
> I want to make sure I'm understanding this
> correctly--people in the school are told that they
> only have one chance at enlightenment, ever, and
> the head of the school is the only one who can
> perceive when this moment will arrive for someone?
> What on earth is the definition of enlightenment
> here? That is bizarre and completely at odds with
> almost any other wisdom tradition I've ever been
> exposed to.
>
> Thank you both for sharing more about your
> experiences.

People get different kinds of explanations so some will have gotten that explanation and others will be told something slightly different or maybe very different. That depends on what students tell each other, what type of space Samuel was in when he gave a certain lecture and so on. I could go to an intensive in the US and be told something different about a subject than when I went to an intensive somewhere else in the world. Some would say that I was deepening my understanding of the work that way but I often found it confusing. He changed his mind about some elements of his teachings over the years though.

When he moved to the US there was a lot of talk about how he changed his way of behaving, talking, walking etc. He supposedly did that to fit in and maybe everyone who moves to a different country can agree that they do change somehow. Or maybe he just had a sort of chameleon personality that he masked by telling us he changed on purpose and by using his special powers.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/14/2021 09:31AM by mesche.

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Re: Samuel Sagan Clairvision
Posted by: metanoia ()
Date: September 14, 2021 09:50AM

mesche Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> About the apocalyptic flavor. Many of the students
> I met trained for the future and the big
> technological changes that are happening right now
> in our world as discussed in the books he wrote.
> That meant training for a war that will come in a
> few hundred years where masters from the archive
> will be born and fight for humanity's freedom.

The what from the what? The more I hear about this the crazier it sounds.

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Re: Samuel Sagan Clairvision
Posted by: mesche ()
Date: September 14, 2021 09:57AM

mesche Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> metanoia Wrote:
> -------------------------------------------------------
> > Grok, Mesche, these details are incredibly
> helpful
> > to hear--feeling much better about my decision
> to
> > not get involved. A few follow-up questions, if
> > you're willing to answer them:
>
> About the apocalyptic flavor. Many of the students
> I met trained for the future and the big
> technological changes that are happening right now
> in our world as discussed in the books he wrote.
> That meant training for a war that will come in a
> few hundred years where masters from the archive
> will be born and fight for humanity's freedom.
> That bit I actually liked even though I don't
> believe the books are anything but fiction. The
> way algorithms are created to keep us addicted by
> making the world into a Skinner Box for instance
> is worth joining the good fight for to prevent.
> Maybe just not literally like in the books.


Just to clarify thing. Not training with weapons. But training by doing the work by meditating, staying in the third eye, making life work in real life etc.

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Re: Samuel Sagan Clairvision
Posted by: mesche ()
Date: September 14, 2021 10:07AM

metanoia Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> mesche Wrote:
> -------------------------------------------------------
>
> > About the apocalyptic flavor. Many of the
> students
> > I met trained for the future and the big
> > technological changes that are happening right
> now
> > in our world as discussed in the books he
> wrote.
> > That meant training for a war that will come in
> a
> > few hundred years where masters from the
> archive
> > will be born and fight for humanity's freedom.
>
> The what from the what? The more I hear about this
> the crazier it sounds.

Maybe. I wasn't raised in a religious family but others told me over the years that many religions and cults etc prepare for an apocalypse by praying and being part of a religious or spiritual group. America certainly seems obsessed with the Apocalypse. One in four Americans think the world will end in their lifetime. One in seven worldwide.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/14/2021 10:08AM by mesche.

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Re: Samuel Sagan Clairvision
Posted by: oneclickwonder ()
Date: September 14, 2021 04:09PM

metanoia Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> mesche Wrote:
> -------------------------------------------------------
>
> > About the apocalyptic flavor. Many of the
> students
> > I met trained for the future and the big
> > technological changes that are happening right
> now
> > in our world as discussed in the books he
> wrote.
> > That meant training for a war that will come in
> a
> > few hundred years where masters from the
> archive
> > will be born and fight for humanity's freedom.
>
> The what from the what? The more I hear about this
> the crazier it sounds.


read Bleeding Sun. its what the whole book is about...

oh man what a fucked up experience that was. reading it was one hell of a trip though.

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Re: Samuel Sagan Clairvision
Posted by: oneclickwonder ()
Date: September 14, 2021 04:18PM

ok, SO awesome that this thread has lit up again.

I want to share a bit more about my experience and speak to what has been shared here as well.

I found that, as said in my previous post, I dealt with abuse or things that made me feel uncomfortable in the school, including instructors at the IST retreat pushing me past my consent boundaries and making me feel uncomfortable after I told them not too.

I later spoke to the friend who got me involved in the school and she told me that her personal information was given to members of the school without her consent by her IST practitioner, including highly detailed personal information she never gave consent to have shared. she signed a confidentiality agreement with the IST practitioner which she showed me, including the email receipt of it, and the later email, in which she discussed this violation.

Has anybody else had this happen to them? I'm curious to know.

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Re: Samuel Sagan Clairvision
Posted by: metanoia ()
Date: September 14, 2021 11:22PM

Quote
grok

-If you go on to advanced levels of the Clairvision work, you will be required to accept certain activities many would consider spiritual abuse as a normal part of your path to enlightenment.

Quote
grok

-Members engage in activities that they would have previously though were reprehensible

grok, would you be willing to share examples of these kinds of occurrences?

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Re: Samuel Sagan Clairvision
Posted by: grok ()
Date: September 14, 2021 11:33PM

I really relate to this... it does somehow feel like a betrayal, and even some licensed psychologists don't really understand cult dynamics much less friends from the past. People can definitely judge and think you should just be able to get over it or not understand the level of trauma

mesche Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Talking about it is really hard. Breaking the
> silence feels like betrayal even though I know
> with my mind that it is okay. Even with trained
> psychologists I have a hard time being totally
> open about everything that happened. Some judge if
> they don't know how cults and related groups work.
> Also I miss the school sometimes and people most
> often doesn't get how I can do that. But that is
> how trauma sometimes work.

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Re: Samuel Sagan Clairvision
Posted by: grok ()
Date: September 14, 2021 11:46PM

metanoia Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
>
Quote
Grok
> There is a lot hidden, and it may take several
> years to see things really going on in the school.
> They will make you feel comfortable and safe to
> bring you deeper into the folds in these early
> courses. There is a LOT of energetic deception in
> these first courses. It's very hard to see. All
> part of the indoctrination process.
>
>
> Can you say a little more about this? I felt like
> there was a certain kind of evasiveness from the
> practitioners I met about answering questions or
> being forthcoming, like they weren't really
> telling me what all this was about. What do you
> feel are the important things that the group
> conceals from new potential members?


They tell staff members and residents to hold their energy differently when the IST 101 and IST Focus course students come - especially the 101 students, so it feels safe so they can open to the process of the courses. If staff or residents are fighting or having big reactions about something they are told to do it away from the public areas so younger students won't see the level to which people take the acting out and aggression.


>
Quote
Grok
> We were told when we were in courses that we had
> to wear only certain colors in the temple, but
> when we left to walk around the property we needed
> to wear a jacket or covering so if a plane or
> drone went overhead they wouldn't see a bunch of
> people walking around in all the same color. Aka
> they knew about this as a red flag for other cults
> and didn't want to be pegged for this cultish
> behavior.
>
>
> This sounds quite paranoid. Did you feel that
> there was an atmosphere of paranoia in the school
> at large?

You know, that wasn't my sense at the time, even looking back I feel a bit confused about that. I do feel like part of their paranoia was why they want to keep the school small. That's one of the ways they are different from so many cults we hear about that become so big, but it seems like it might be one of their protection mechanisms. If they are small enough they won't draw too much attention from authorities. They did take one of the books that Samuel Sagan wrote down from selling to the public - things in the book were too controversial for the general public, so now they only sell it to members of the advanced work. That seems a bit paranoid.



>
Quote
Grok
> The staffing program is run like a military
> bootcamp even more so than the course intensives,
> and I even heard it referred to as preparing for
> war - something you'll need for the upcoming
> apocalypse according to the school.
>
>
> I would like to hear more about this, especially
> since the Clairvision website explicitly denies
> that there is a literal apocalyptic flavor to
> their teachings.

Someone mentioned this, but yes, the book Bleeding Sun - this is the kind of apocalyptic future they believe in and that they are training for. This is really the focus of what they want - to bring the Clairvision work into this time far in the future so it can help save humanity.

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