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Re: Samuel Sagan Clairvision
Posted by: oneclickwonder ()
Date: July 13, 2021 05:00AM

mesche Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Years ago I was in this school of meditation and
> there were good and bad times.
>
> The good: I learned to meditate and work on some
> of my personal problems.
>
> The bad: I walked away with new and painful
> personal problems.
>
> I experienced:
>
> Kindness
> Warmth
> Purpose
> Relaxation
> Open-mindedness
> Protection
> Insight
> I met people I would otherwise never meet
>
> But also
>
> Arrogance
> Abuse
> Stalking
> Surveillance
> Being drugged
> Cold misogyny
> Gaslighting
> Scapegoating
> Emotional blackmail
> Thought Policing
> Manipulation
> And yes, brainwashing.
> Paranoia
> People I wish I had never met because they
> violated my trust in disgusting ways.
>
> Also, while being in the school, I sometimes
> became a person I'm not proud of having become.
>
> I don't know how to sum up all that happened back
> then. But when I read this I see that the school
> still deflects responsibility by claiming that a
> questionable culture within the school was tied to
> a certain phase or that they are in the process of
> dealing with ethical issues. Even now after all
> this time I have a feeling I might guess what type
> of nonsensical response senior instructors would
> come up with if presented with negative feedback.


you mentioned surveillance, stalking and being drugged, as well as other concerns. could you share more bout these very disturbing incidents.

I'm scarred, these are not the things I saw when I was there but im willing to believe you.

I think people need to know in case they choose to get involved with the school just what kind of techniques are being used and how.

please feel free to share without giving away any personal information that could lead to your identity being outed.

I hope you're well and fully recovered after these incidents.

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Re: Samuel Sagan Clairvision
Posted by: orangegrl ()
Date: September 07, 2021 01:50AM

Someone sent me the link for the Clairvision lawsuit, here it is for anyone else who is interested:

[app.justis.com]

I was part of the Clairvision school for several years, and I'm surprised that this seems to be the only lawsuit they've been involved in. There were alot of questionable things that I saw and heard personally while I was there, not to mention things I heard about from others.

The first 3 years or so I felt like I got alot out of the teachings and practices. But after that it was significantly diminishing returns. The bad quickly started to outweigh the good. After experiencing hundreds of IST sessions, I really question whether this is an effective therapy.

I know of alot of people besides myself who have been in some way hurt by people in the school - including harm done by instructors and IST practitioners. The bad experiences people shared above are not unique - most people just leave the school don't speak up about the bad things. The "tough love" that someone was talking about above I found to be more in line with abuse the longer I was there.

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Re: Samuel Sagan Clairvision
Posted by: metanoia ()
Date: September 08, 2021 05:39AM

Thanks for posting this, orangegrl.

The piece that stands out to me here and that I'm curious about is the 'Esoteric Christianity' bit--I know that Clairvision at least acknowledges relationship with Rudolf Steiner's work, but it definitely does not present itself as any variety of Christian in its forward-facing materials...for those who have been more involved with the school, is this part of the material once people get more deeply involved?

I can say pretty definitively that this would have been a major deterrent to me had I known about it, and if it's something that is not publicly acknowledged, adds fuel to the assertion that Clairvision is being deceptive about the group's forward-facing material versus what is actually taught in the school.

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Re: Samuel Sagan Clairvision
Posted by: orangegrl ()
Date: September 10, 2021 05:35AM

Yes, the Clairvision work does draw quite a bit from Rudolf Steiner. As far as the Christianity piece, there were times in live courses and in the written materials where quotes or ideas would be presented from Christian materials. Frequently the materials/courses would quote things/pull things from other religions or traditions as well. I didn't feel like there was an emphasis on any one religion or outside tradition - I didn't feel like Christianity was overly represented. As I remember, where quotes or ideas came from was usually acknowledged. This was one of the things I actually thought was really interesting about the Clairvision work - showing the similarities or differences in teachings from different traditions.

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Re: Samuel Sagan Clairvision
Posted by: grok ()
Date: September 13, 2021 03:28AM

I was a student with the Clairvision school for many years.  It's been awhile since I left, but I am still haunted by experiences with this group.

I remember landing on this forum before I ever decided to join the Clairvision school.  At that time there were only one or two posts here, so I figured it was an ok place since people weren't speaking up about it.  Now years later there are many more posts here about people's bad experiences with the Clairvision school.  I'm glad people are speaking up.  I certainly wish more had been here when I first read this forum, it’s one of the reasons I finally decided to post.  The fact that others have posted also gives me the courage to share my own experiences.  I see why people are afraid to share more, the intimidation or possible blackmail issue is very real with this group.

What you see is not what you get in the Awakening the Third Eye (ATE), IST 101 or the IST Focus courses.  (IST = Inner Space Techniques, their particular form of therapy.  It used to be called ISIS = Inner Space Interactive Sourcing).  There is a lot hidden, and it may take several years to see things really going on in the school.  They will make you feel comfortable and safe to bring you deeper into the folds in these early courses.  There is a LOT of energetic deception in these first courses.  It's very hard to see.  All part of the indoctrination process.

I really appreciate mesche's post and can personally relate to most of what they shared.  I was never stalked or drugged, but it's not hard for me to believe that happened to someone within this organization.  For me, the surveillance was while at the retreat centers, not at my home.  All the other things mesche mentioned in their list, both positive and negative, I also experienced.

I too feel like I was able to work out some of my problems through the work of the school, but I left with more and bigger problems.

I experienced these as common themes in the school:

Spiritual narcissism
Spiritual bypassing
Spiritual abuse 
Extreme peer pressure
Bullying
Deception
Deceit
Aggression
Cruelty
Harshness
Victimization
Deflected responsibility
Sexual politics
Sexual predation
Trauma bonding
Re-traumatization
Vulnerability vampirism
Hidden dogma
Fake transparency
Hypocrisy
Mind games
Undue influence

I did meet some wonderful people, but I also had to deal with others who abused and violated me and my trust in truly heinous ways - worse than I ever could have imagined.

Are there good things about the Clairvision school?  Well, I certainly saw benefits, I wouldn't have stayed so long had I not.  Some of the practices they teach I will probably continue to do for many years if not the rest of my life.  Unfortunately, the human politics side plays out heavily in the Clairvision school (although they will probably tell you it’s just your samskaras talking or some other such nonsense).  And how they draw you in without really telling you what's going on I find to be especially sinister. 

The risk to your mental health is very real - much higher than they would like for you to believe.  If you decide to get involved be sure you have good medical insurance that includes excellent mental health coverage or plenty of funds to spend on your mental health outside of the school.  Many, many people I knew (myself included) ended up needing to work with licensed mental health providers as a result of things that happened related to the school and/or people in the school. 

Seriously, beware of this group - there’s much more going on here than meets the eye.  If I knew then what I know now about the school, I don't think I would have gotten involved.

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Re: Samuel Sagan Clairvision
Posted by: mesche ()
Date: September 13, 2021 05:13PM

Talking about it is really hard. Breaking the silence feels like betrayal even though I know with my mind that it is okay. Even with trained psychologists I have a hard time being totally open about everything that happened. Some judge if they don't know how cults and related groups work. Also I miss the school sometimes and people most often doesn't get how I can do that. But that is how trauma sometimes work.

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Re: Samuel Sagan Clairvision
Posted by: grok ()
Date: September 14, 2021 02:43AM

Responding to other posts on this topic:

-->How is Clairvision held accountable?Is there any board certification, licensing board or anything that offers checks and balances?

There is no board that offers checks and balances.  The Clairvision School is registered as a non-profit in the state of California under the name Point Horizon Institute, EIN: 20-3884348.  If you know about illegal, fraudulent, unethical or otherwise questionable activities you can report that information to the government entities that govern them.  Some of these sites allow you to report anonymously:

California Attorney General File A Complaint: 
[coag.gov]

California Attorney General Report Consumer Fraud: 
[coag.gov]

State of California Department of Justice Charity Complaints:  [www.oag.ca.gov

California Department of Consumer Affairs: 
[www.dca.ca.gov]

If you know of fraud, you can report this information to the FTC (Federal Trade Commission):
[reportfraud.ftc.gov]

The Clairvision school originally started in Australia, the headquarters are now in the USA, but the school does still have a registered business entity for their Australian branch.  The entity name is Clairvision School Limited, ABN - 90 050 633 237. 

Info about the Australian branch: 
[www.acnc.gov.au]

How To Raise A Concern About an Australian Charity:
[www.acnc.gov.au]

I suspect this is one of those things where they would need to receive multiple reports from different people in order to do something about it.  The more people that make reports, the more likely something will be done about complaints.


--> There are many high demand religious groups that are actually much harder to stay in than to leave. In fact some groups routinely kick people out who 'don't make the grade" in one way or another. Not trying to get you back does not necessarily mean a group is "safe" or "good" imo.

I would say Clairvision fits into this - it's definitely a high demand group.  Some people really make Clairvision their whole lives.  Once you get to a certain level of the training you have to keep up with your peers to stay in that same group or get dropped to a lower class level.  There's a lot of pressure to "put your will into it" to make things happen, and if you can't make it work to make it to courses or do the other things they might deem appropriate for you, there is the real possibility of being dropped down or kicked out or told you need to take a break.

I've heard it said repeatedly that you're always free to leave Clairvision, therefore it is not a cult, but other legitimate cult leaders have said the same thing, and I don't think that alone is enough to disqualify this group as a cult.


-->Does the group take money from anybody, or do they attempt some kind of psychological assessment to prevent people who "aren't ready" from attending courses?

There is a questionnaire that they ask you to fill out before being accepted to a course, but that's it, and as I understood it, the majority of people who apply to a course are accepted.  I was never a screener, but it was my understanding that they mostly tried to screen out people with serious mental illness or who were on psychiatric medications for more serious issues.


-->Are people with PTSD, childhood abuse and trauma etc screened in any way?

There is a pre-course questionnaire where people can reveal this information but people are not screened out because of that, in fact many of them would actually be encouraged to get involved to help resolve these issues.


-->People with PTSD, abuse and trauma are very likely to receive significant benefit from CV techniques. There is no reason to prevent them from attending.

This was not my experience.  At first it seemed that way, but after being there for many, many years what I started to notice was that people who had been in the school for 10, 15 or 20+ years were still replaying their same traumas and dramas as they were when I first met them.  Of course this is hard to see at first because you don't know everyone and their traumas/dramas, but as time went on this was really in my face.  Students were just replaying their traumas/dramas in what seemed like much more sophisticated ways, which leads them to believe they've made progress or have changed, but this isn't what I saw.  See for yourself know for yourself right?  

In my opinion (and experience) trauma treatment has improved significantly over the last 10-20 years, and much about IST I feel never progressed beyond the 90's with regards to trauma.  I definitely don't recommend IST for anyone who has real traumas and/or PTSD.  The problem with this is that so many people repress trauma memories, so in essence you may have no idea how much trauma you've actually been through till you start going through the IST process.  IST will dig at all the things you repressed, for better or worse.


-->Is anyone supervising the group who is a mental health professional, working under licensure?

No. Samuel Sagan used to be a licensed medical doctor. He did at some point let his license expire, but I don't remember the when and why of that. Samuel Sagan passed away in 2016.

When I left the school none of the people who were in charge had any kind of mental health professional licensure or even much formal training in any mental health field. I would be surprised if this had changed. 


-->What does the group do if they induce PTSD in a client through regression , or does this never happen?

If it does happen - they "put vision on it".  They don't really have a protocol as far as I know beyond that.  I know some people have been sent away, but I always questioned how people dealt with some of the crazy stuff I saw come up for them after they left the retreat center.  There is no support after you leave the retreat unless you are willing to pay for it with an IST practitioner. 


-->Does the group take any responsibility for those who appear to have been harmed through regression? Or is it just a case of "Ah well, they weren't ready; onto the next client with money...:?"

No they do not take any responsibility, it is more of a "they couldn't take the spiritual fire" or "they weren't ready" kind of hand waving gesture they do around this.  The waiver they have you sign is pretty intense - completely waiving all your rights for whatever could possibly happen there.  Here's some of the language from it:

"I agree to indemnify, defend and hold harmless Point Horizon Institute, its affiliates, and any of their agents, volunteers and representatives of each of the foregoing entities (such entities and individuals, the “Indemnified Parties”) against all claims, causes of action, damages, judgments, costs and expenses, including attorney fees and other litigation costs, that may in any way arise from my participation in the Workshop or my presence upon the facilities in which the Workshop is conducted, including actions resulting from the negligence or recklessness of any of the Indemnifed Parties.

I recognize that there are certain risks involved with the activities conducted in the Workshop, and that my participation in the Workshop may result injury to myself, including the occurrence of emotionally disturbing and/or cathartic experiences. I assume full responsibility for any personal injury to myself that may result from the activities conducted in the Workshop. I hereby release and discharge each of the Indemnified Parties from any liability, loss or damage for injuries to myself that result from my participation in the Workshop or my presence upon the facilities in which the Workshop is conducted, including damages that result from the negligence or recklessness of any of the Indemnified Parties."

Volunteers aren't really taught anything about appropriate interactions with others at the retreat centers.  Negligence and recklessness happen all the time because everyone is a volunteer, not an employee who has something on the line.  The whole "anything goes except for a few no-no's" is more the way of the school.  Many people sign waivers without taking in the true reality of the situation - good to know that this place has no code of ethics or training of its volunteers around recklessness and negligence before signing that waiver.

-->Or is no one ever harmed?

People have been harmed but mostly it seems like people just don't come back rather than trying to pursue anything to hold the school accountable.


-->What exactly have you seen happen to people who "weren't ready"? What kind of symptoms did they have? Do they become suicidal? Is there any follow up with these people after the week ends?

I'm not really sure how to answer this because I didn't usually see what happened to people after they left a retreat, especially people who just came for a one off.  I do know some people were written off as crazy or as not disclosing something on the screening questionnaire (which I question if that was true or just an excuse) - essentially a lot of misinformation gets spread around for the reasons someone might leave.

There is no follow up after you leave the retreat unless you pay for additional sessions with an IST practitioner. 

Even people who "were ready" sometimes had a hard time after a course.  I did have many friends in the work who told me they had a hard time integrating back into the real world after leaving the retreat center.  I definitely had that happen a few times myself and needed to take additional time off work to integrate, sometimes more than a week.


-->(By the way, the idea that regression to bad events is helpful to all people is questioned quite a bit by some modern psychologists .)

Yes, this is true.  IST (Inner Space Techniques, formerly known as ISIS - Inner Space Interactive Sourcing but changed due to current political climate around 2015/16) is essentially a cathartic regression therapy practice.  No one in the school ever told me this, it wasn't till years later I was describing IST to a friend with background in psychology and she named for me that IST was a cathartic practice.  I had an ah-ha moment when I looked up more about cathartic practices and why they could be dangerous if not facilitated properly.  The Clairvision school describes IST as a more meditative exploration process, but that's not all it is - it is definitely a cathartic practice. 

In the retreats you'll see people acting out all kinds of things from the past in an effort to clear the energy from the system - fighting, screaming, crying, etc.  With both regression and cathartic types of therapy, the integration phases after are really important, but you don't get this with Clairvision.  What you get is being completely blown open all day every day with session after session of IST and no time to integrate the experiences till after you leave - and you don't get any support after you leave without paying more. The intensives are run more like military boot camps than anything else.

Because there can be much acting out during IST - yelling, fighting, pushing, catharsis! - it can feel SO GOOD, but that doesn't mean it will solve your problems.  In fact without proper integration, these kind of practices can be more harmful than helpful.  And considering the lack of consistency in training IST practitioners and the fact that most of them don't have mental health training outside of the school's theories and models, I question whether they can really facilitate that integration. 


-->If a psychologist treats someone they have to follow a strict code of ethics. This is to protect a client from being manipulated by the power holder, for example for sexual favors, money beyond fees, or free labor. Does the group have a strict code of ethics, or is it ok to expect people to donate extra money, free labor, sexual favors etc?

The Clairvision school does not have a code of ethics or much of anything written about ethics, they never did while I was a part of the group anyway.  You'll be hard pressed to find anything about ethics on their websites.

I know of multiple situations where IST practitioners and instructors have abused their power, most of them with little or no consequences - there are no checks and balances within the Clairvision school.  IST practitioners have married (and of course subsequently divorced) their clients.  Dual relationships with clients pretty much always happen since none of the practitioners are licensed. I would be surprised if most IST practitioners even comprehend why understanding dual relationship would be important.

Ethics is not something that IST practitioners are taught about as part of their training.  In my estimation, at least 90% of Clairvision IST practitioners are not licensed in any mental health field and their background/training in mental health extremely questionable.  Most of them don't have mental health training outside of the Clairvision school's models and theories, which in my opinion are outdated. 

The process of becoming an IST practitioner is not standard - it's more about convincing the powers that be that you're in line enough with the Clairvision tradition rather than any kind of standard training they provide or require.  And there are no requirements for continued education in order for someone to maintain their IST practitioner status - at least not requirements that are in any way formally or consistently enforced.

There are some really questionable sexual politics things going on within the school.  And yes, you are expected to give, give, give, give, give to the school - money, time - whatever you have available they will take.


--> I'm curious about is the 'Esoteric Christianity' bit--I know that Clairvision at least acknowledges relationship with Rudolf Steiner's work, but it definitely does not present itself as any variety of Christian in its forward-facing materials...for those who have been more involved with the school, is this part of the material once people get more deeply involved?

I'm not sure if orangegrl answered your question, but as far as the esoteric part of things, there are initiations and secret rituals that might be considered in line with what you're talking about.  Like, for example they don't tell you until you're there that the Thunderwand course is a full on initiation and changes your energy such that afterwards they tell you that you're not supposed let anyone manipulate your energy outside of Clairvision school practitioners. So no one like a chiropractor or massage therapist or other energy worker should be messing with your energy. That sure would have been nice to know before I showed up! 

They had higher levels of initiation rituals that I was not a part of.  So if you meant do they have initiations and secret rituals, the answer is yes.  I don't know if things went so far as physical branding like the NXIVM cult did, but it did seem to me like there was some form of energetic branding going on, which could be good or bad depending on who you ask (and whether people knew they were consenting to this or not).

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Re: Samuel Sagan Clairvision
Posted by: grok ()
Date: September 14, 2021 02:54AM

Other Clairvision red flags I wish I would have paid more attention to and not let be explained away:

-Zealous commitment to the leader - even though Samuel always said that he wasn't a guru, people still treated him like one.  I feel like this got transferred to the higher up people after he died and Clairvision students now treat them in a similar way they did Samuel.  There is a high level of admiration that can go to extremes. 

-While Samuel was still alive, he was really the one running the school.  While the day to day things may have been handled by volunteers, if Samuel said something about how something was supposed to be, everyone accepted it pretty much as law.  Even though he never referred to himself as a guru, there were plenty of people who treated him that way. 

-Mind-altering practices are used - cathartic regression therapy (that is what IST is) when done several times per day, many days in a row is definitely a mind-altering practice

-Members must abide by certain guidelines that are set forth by the leaders without questioning (like what colors to wear in the temple, what food to eat during a course, etc)

-The group is elitist - they think their way is superior to other methods, some, if not many, look down on other methods/groups

-The ends justify the means - aka for you to reach enlightenment, if you have to do things that normal society might deem as unethical then you should do it and not worry about what anyone else thinks or how it could hurt others (as long as it doesn't land you in jail)

-Members engage in activities that they would have previously though were reprehensible

-Group leaders do not really answer to any other authorities and make you believe that the only alternative if for you to leave if you don't agree

-Many members are encouraged to make huge and radical changes to their lives, like move to live on the school property, leave relationships, or change jobs

-They are focused on bringing in new members through their Awakening the Third Eye (ATE) courses - there is always a need for fresh meat in this organization because of the way they chew up and spit out many of the members as time goes on

-If you're really going to be part of the school, there are huge time commitments that can be expected, especially if you live/work on the school property

-There is emotional manipulation and gaslighting

-Samuel Sagan had sexual relationships with students. Now that he's been dead for five years, it wouldn't surprise me if some of these people started feeling safe enough to come out of the woodwork.  From where I was standing, there certainly seemed to be significant collateral damage for those people when the relationships ended

-It's ok for instructors and admin to date and have sexual relationships with students

-It's really not about the price of one individual course, that's mostly reasonable for what you get.  It becomes unreasonable when they pressure you to take more and more and more courses, even pressure to come live on property so you can give even more of your time and money to the cause of the school.  If you get pegged as someone who has the money you may be more pressured than others.  I knew people who easily spent $10K just on courses each year.  That's in addition how much they spent to travel to the retreat centers (which could be steep because of the very remote locations) and money spent on IST practitioners, which could easily be one or two sessions per week at $125-250 per session.  This adds up quickly.

-When you're at a retreat center your time is controlled almost completely, there is usually very little time to sleep.  The courses are run more like military bootcamps, there is something in the schedule usually from 8am-10pm everyday.  You do get meal breaks, but often you are required to do volunteer work doing those breaks (cleaning dishes, mopping, cleaning bathrooms, etc).  I myself was forced to go to scheduled activities even when I was feeling ill, and I was not alone in that - I heard and saw this happen to many other people as well.

-They have their own language they use for their practices and how they communicate with each other

-They tell you that being on volunteer staff is the highest level of training that the school offers.  It's also when they take the most from you.  They work you from morning till night (12-18 hour days) with very few, if any, real breaks and for days if not weeks on end without a day off.  But you think you're getting the highest level of training they offer so you willingly submit.  The staffing program is run like a military bootcamp even more so than the course intensives, and I even heard it referred to as preparing for war - something you'll need for the upcoming apocalypse according to the school.

-Everyone is a volunteer.  They present this as something admirable, people who volunteer do so out of a true spirit of giving and love of the Clairvision work.  What they don't tell you is that they are really just taking a page straight from Scientology in that if anything ever comes back around about something someone said or did, it's all about, well, so-and-so is just a volunteer so what they did doesn't really represent the school.  The perfect way to abscond from any amount of responsibility. 

-Also some volunteers (but not others for unknown and unexplained reasons) are backdoor compensated, get free housing, food, travel, etc - all kinds of things for free.  Some of the volunteers are financially compensated, again through the back door, but there did not seem to be a real standard about this.  This is another situation where I'm sure they would say they "put vision on it" and the outcome is because of that.  Many of the people who are long term volunteers/admin get many of their basic living expenses taken care of by the school. 

-There isn't any transparency about the leadership - even who is in charge of what is very unclear, and I think they do this on purpose to keep people off balance.  Any problems with the group or leadership are hidden and/or denied.  Everyone is technically a volunteer, no one is paid an official salary or wage, so, again, this is another way they bypass responsibility for what is said or done.

-There are some big gaps in standard operating procedures for the school.  Because it's entirely made of volunteers, there is a huge lack of consistency with much of anything in the school.

-There is no standard place to find the information you're looking for.  And it's likely that when you ask someone you think is in admin you'll get 10 different answers.  If you ask the wrong person (even if they are a senior student) you're likely to hear on down the road that that person doesn't formally represent the school.  There's a lot of misinformation that gets spread this way.

-There's no transparent method for how others can know what's going on, for how to move into a leadership position or how to have any say in how the school is run

-When you're at the retreat center there's very little/no connection to the outside world, even listening to music is discouraged.

-People living at the school properties/on staff are told to hold their energy differently/only say certain things when "outsiders" like delivery people show up.  They have a protocol for when this happens so the outsiders don't see too much. 

-We were told when we were in courses that we had to wear only certain colors in the temple, but when we left to walk around the property we needed to wear a jacket or covering so if a plane or drone went overhead they wouldn't see a bunch of people walking around in all the same color.  Aka they knew about this as a red flag for other cults and didn't want to be pegged for this cultish behavior.

-They tell you not to use certain language or to talk about certain topics in public when you go into town with a group from the retreat center because it could raise the eyebrows of the locals and they could cause problems for the school

-They make people feel that any problems they have are always their own fault, whatever issue someone has gets turned back on them, it's something they need to look at in themselves.  Yet another way people avoid taking responsibility for their actions - just turn it back on the other person.

-People who have romantic/sexual relationships with people who are in admin or higher ups get special privileges at the school that "normals" do not (cheaper/free/better housing/food, getting to stay on property after courses when others are made to leave, being in charge of certain programs, put in power positions themselves, etc).  Having sex with the right persons can definitely get you somewhere in the Clairvision school.

-Relationships are expendable in the Clairvision school.  There's sort of an attitude in the school of using each other to "get through" a certain part of their process, and when they feel like they've accomplished that, they discard the other person - both in friendships and romantic relationships.  This is written off as "everything is impermanent" and therefore it's ok to treat fellow students like this.

-Very few relationships survive Clairvision.  If you value your relationship, I highly recommend NOT subjecting it to the culture of Clairvision.  There seems to be an underlying belief with people in the school that intimate relationships are simply a stepping stone to the next higher up place in your enlightenment, and you may even be encouraged to leave your partner in very hurtful ways.  I learned this the hard way and I cannot emphasize enough that it's better to find a real, licensed relationship counselor or therapist unless what you really want is an excuse or reason to leave your partner.  Clairvision will definitely help you find a reason to leave your partner.

-There is a lot pushing the boundaries of sexuality in the Clairvision school - and even if you don't want to be a part of this, eventually it's something you'll have to face in the school.  I have known people who were convinced through the Clairvision processes they needed to go to the extreme in their exploring sexuality, and for better or worse they did.

-Sex as the answer to problems is a real thing in the Clairvision school - perhaps not for every single person, but definitely for a large majority.  If you ask people who've been in the school more than a few years how many people they have had sex with, dated or been married to in the school, and assuming they answer honestly, you will start to get a feel for what a hotbed of incestuous sexual dysfunction the Clairvision school really is.

-If you go on to advanced levels of the Clairvision work, you will be required to accept certain activities many would consider spiritual abuse as a normal part of your path to enlightenment.

-For an organization that puts "see for yourself, know for yourself" as one of its mottos, there actually is quite a bit of dogma within the school, especially at advanced levels.  At a certain point with certain things, if you don't see for yourself and know for yourself in the same way that others in the school do, you won't be allowed to advance in the work

-In the Clairvision school, they teach you about getting in touch with your inner predator - how to be a predator and go after the things you want in life.  They literally use the word "predator".  Yet nothing is taught about how increased power brings increased responsibility or how to use this power wisely.  I watched these new "predators" turn their fellow students into prey repeatedly.  I have seen people absolutely tear each other apart emotionally with little, if any, responsibility or accountability, and then they write it off as just part of the enlightenment process.  It was interesting to watch how this "get in touch with your predator" seemed to ignite similar hierarchical structures within the Clairvision school that reminded me of being in high school - the same people being the popular crowd, the same people being bullied, etc.  Pretty nauseating after awhile.

-People in the Clairvision school tend to hop on the bandwagon for different courses together outside of the Clairvision school.  This year everyone's doing the grief recovery method courses, the next year everyone's doing Karen Kingston's courses, etc.  One of the bandwagons everyone was hopping on was around BDSM...  I heard more than a few stories about Clairvision people taking BDSM too far - not getting clear consent, coercion, etc.  Although I'm sure the Clairvision school would say that's not anything to do with the school itself, it's the individuals acting autonomously doing these things, there's definitely a pattern of how far Clairvision students are willing to push others, whether they want to be pushed or not.  And there is definitely peer pressure to go along with these more extreme practices in some circles of the school.

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Re: Samuel Sagan Clairvision
Posted by: mesche ()
Date: September 14, 2021 03:59AM

Some became suicidal when i was in the school. Getting a depression was something to expect I was told by some older students if you did the work long enough and aspired for Elightenment. Because no one became enlightened in the school. Only Samuel according to him and only he would be able to see. No one had this big moment of connecting with their body of immortality and being able to tap from it at will. Everyone seemed to miss their moment in time or not experience it in this lifetime and according to some it only came ones ever no matter how many incarnations on earth you went through. So if you missed your moment there was nothing to do ever you would have lost everything. I heard of at least five people being deeply depressed because of it. Two for sure tried killing themselves and one succeeded but might have had a mental health issue that made it happen. Others started behaving odd and out of character suddenly, myself included.
Only Samuel could see the moment coming it was told and would approach people he thought would have the will to succeed. Right.

Also there was this idea that at a certain level of the work Samuel would have people train for beating intelligence tests. I'm still not sure why.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/14/2021 04:10AM by mesche.

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Re: Samuel Sagan Clairvision
Posted by: metanoia ()
Date: September 14, 2021 08:07AM

Grok, Mesche, these details are incredibly helpful to hear--feeling much better about my decision to not get involved. A few follow-up questions, if you're willing to answer them:

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Grok
There is a lot hidden, and it may take several years to see things really going on in the school. They will make you feel comfortable and safe to bring you deeper into the folds in these early courses. There is a LOT of energetic deception in these first courses. It's very hard to see. All part of the indoctrination process.

Can you say a little more about this? I felt like there was a certain kind of evasiveness from the practitioners I met about answering questions or being forthcoming, like they weren't really telling me what all this was about. What do you feel are the important things that the group conceals from new potential members?

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Grok
it wasn't till years later I was describing IST to a friend with background in psychology and she named for me that IST was a cathartic practice

I appreciate your naming this--I agree, in my experience cathartic practices seem to be effective in the short term, but I think you're mostly just training your nervous system to reexperience these things. Real change is slow, subtle, and in my experience most often gentle.

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Grok
Like, for example they don't tell you until you're there that the Thunderwand course is a full on initiation and changes your energy such that afterwards they tell you that you're not supposed let anyone manipulate your energy outside of Clairvision school practitioners.

This also really bothers me. I was very confused by the way they talked about working with particular 'spiritual forces'...I come from a tradition that's about G-d, nothing more, nothing less, and the idea of being opened up to other forces that were not really being adequately described to me was creepy and unsettling.

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Grok
We were told when we were in courses that we had to wear only certain colors in the temple, but when we left to walk around the property we needed to wear a jacket or covering so if a plane or drone went overhead they wouldn't see a bunch of people walking around in all the same color. Aka they knew about this as a red flag for other cults and didn't want to be pegged for this cultish behavior.

This sounds quite paranoid. Did you feel that there was an atmosphere of paranoia in the school at large?

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Grok
The staffing program is run like a military bootcamp even more so than the course intensives, and I even heard it referred to as preparing for war - something you'll need for the upcoming apocalypse according to the school.

I would like to hear more about this, especially since the Clairvision website explicitly denies that there is a literal apocalyptic flavor to their teachings.

Quote
mesche
Some became suicidal when i was in the school. Getting a depression was something to expect I was told by some older students if you did the work long enough and aspired for Elightenment. Because no one became enlightened in the school. Only Samuel according to him and only he would be able to see. No one had this big moment of connecting with their body of immortality and being able to tap from it at will. Everyone seemed to miss their moment in time or not experience it in this lifetime and according to some it only came ones ever no matter how many incarnations on earth you went through. So if you missed your moment there was nothing to do ever you would have lost everything. I heard of at least five people being deeply depressed because of it. Two for sure tried killing themselves and one succeeded but might have had a mental health issue that made it happen. Others started behaving odd and out of character suddenly, myself included.
Only Samuel could see the moment coming it was told and would approach people he thought would have the will to succeed. Right.

I want to make sure I'm understanding this correctly--people in the school are told that they only have one chance at enlightenment, ever, and the head of the school is the only one who can perceive when this moment will arrive for someone?
What on earth is the definition of enlightenment here? That is bizarre and completely at odds with almost any other wisdom tradition I've ever been exposed to.

Thank you both for sharing more about your experiences.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/14/2021 08:35AM by metanoia.

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