Current Page: 6 of 7
Re: Samuel Sagan Clairvision
Posted by: grok ()
Date: September 14, 2021 11:50PM

I definitely had this happen too - a real inconsistency with the teachings that could change from day to day, year to year. I also found this very confusing, and it's something that continued after Samuel died.

mesche Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> People get different kinds of explanations so some
> will have gotten that explanation and others will
> be told something slightly different or maybe very
> different. That depends on what students tell each
> other, what type of space Samuel was in when he
> gave a certain lecture and so on. I could go to an
> intensive in the US and be told something
> different about a subject than when I went to an
> intensive somewhere else in the world. Some would
> say that I was deepening my understanding of the
> work that way but I often found it confusing. He
> changed his mind about some elements of his
> teachings over the years though.

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Re: Samuel Sagan Clairvision
Posted by: grok ()
Date: September 15, 2021 12:03AM

This sounds really similar to something I heard about in the school with confidentiality through the grapevine recently. It's not really my story to tell, so I won't share the details, but this isn't the only instance obviously. Needless to say, confidentiality in the Clairvision school is a joke. Consent is assumed in many situations. I've never heard of the school holding people accountable for this kind of stuff.

oneclickwonder Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I later spoke to the friend who got me involved in
> the school and she told me that her personal
> information was given to members of the school
> without her consent by her IST practitioner,
> including highly detailed personal information she
> never gave consent to have shared. she signed a
> confidentiality agreement with the IST
> practitioner which she showed me, including the
> email receipt of it, and the later email, in which
> she discussed this violation.
>
> Has anybody else had this happen to them? I'm
> curious to know.

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Re: Samuel Sagan Clairvision
Posted by: grok ()
Date: September 15, 2021 12:10AM

I feel like many people have already shared examples of the abuse above - these are the kind of things you will have to accept as normal.

As far as members engaging in things they may have previously thought reprehensible, here are some examples that come to mind:

-participating in an orgy
-exploring your sexuality with a same-sex partner
-BDSM
-becoming a legal prostitute (legal in Nevada and close to one of the Clairvision retreat centers)
-enacting a rape scene with your partner to see what that feels like
-killing an animal to see what it feels like to kill something




metanoia Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
Quote
grok
>
> -If you go on to advanced levels of the
> Clairvision work, you will be required to accept
> certain activities many would consider spiritual
> abuse as a normal part of your path to
> enlightenment.
>
>
>
>
Quote
grok
>
> -Members engage in activities that they would have
> previously though were reprehensible
>
>
>
> grok, would you be willing to share examples of
> these kinds of occurrences?

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Re: Samuel Sagan Clairvision
Posted by: mesche ()
Date: September 15, 2021 01:18AM

oneclickwonder Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ok, SO awesome that this thread has lit up again.
>
> I want to share a bit more about my experience and
> speak to what has been shared here as well.
>
> I found that, as said in my previous post, I dealt
> with abuse or things that made me feel
> uncomfortable in the school, including instructors
> at the IST retreat pushing me past my consent
> boundaries and making me feel uncomfortable after
> I told them not too.
>
> I later spoke to the friend who got me involved in
> the school and she told me that her personal
> information was given to members of the school
> without her consent by her IST practitioner,
> including highly detailed personal information she
> never gave consent to have shared. she signed a
> confidentiality agreement with the IST
> practitioner which she showed me, including the
> email receipt of it, and the later email, in which
> she discussed this violation.
>
> Has anybody else had this happen to them? I'm
> curious to know.

That happened all the time to me as well. I probably shared too much info like that too I'm sad to say.

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Re: Samuel Sagan Clairvision
Posted by: mesche ()
Date: September 15, 2021 02:21AM

grok Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I really relate to this... it does somehow feel
> like a betrayal, and even some licensed
> psychologists don't really understand cult
> dynamics much less friends from the past. People
> can definitely judge and think you should just be
> able to get over it or not understand the level of
> trauma
>
> mesche Wrote:
> -------------------------------------------------------
> > Talking about it is really hard. Breaking the
> > silence feels like betrayal even though I know
> > with my mind that it is okay. Even with trained
> > psychologists I have a hard time being totally
> > open about everything that happened. Some judge
> if
> > they don't know how cults and related groups
> work.
> > Also I miss the school sometimes and people
> most
> > often doesn't get how I can do that. But that
> is
> > how trauma sometimes work.

It's lonely getting out. I found a group at some point that was a meeting place for cult survivors and didn't even feel like I was allowed to be in it. Most had grown up in religious cults and were born into them. They were innocent. But I chose being part of a cult or whatever we should name such a group as an adult in my early twenties. The guilt and shame felt so inappropriate to share when some of them told horror-stories from when they were 8 and had no other options than to stay or die. Clairvision is not a place for kids though, there were never children at intensives or other workshops, and I think that is one of the good things about that particular school of meditation. It could get really bad if they were allowed to participate.

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Re: Samuel Sagan Clairvision
Posted by: oneclickwonder ()
Date: September 15, 2021 03:21PM

Grok... it sounds like there were some very significant shifts in people's lives here.


I mean I see nothing wrong with participating in orgies or trying BDSM and having sex with a same sex partner as long as everything is consensual... but killing an animal just to know what it feels like?!?!?! That't terrible!

Also, I find the notion of becoming a prostitute to be dangerous and risky, as well as quite potentially unhelpful to spiritual work, though I personally pass no judgement on sex workers and totally support them and their right to do whatever they want for a career.

Do you have any details about this? Can you share more about what these people went through? How did they feel after? did you ever talk to them and get an idea of where these practices left them?

I'm deeply disconcerted and would like to hear more.

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Re: Samuel Sagan Clairvision
Posted by: oneclickwonder ()
Date: September 15, 2021 03:32PM

To reiterate, I went to the school for a 101 about several years ago, I had an alright experience there, found the meditations to be interesting after a friend who was involved in the school went and told me about it. she said the CV teachings changed her life and asked me to give it a shot and even paid for my tuition.

I went, felt pushed by an instructor to share past my boundaries in IST with them and another student, and kept getting pushed during the session even when I told them I didn't want to share anymore.

I also felt belittled and talked down to while I was there and noted it to my friend who was there as well. she told me to quit disagreeing with the instructor and to give them a chance. I didn't like it and never went back. she stayed in and came to me recently with her story of abuse after not talking to me for over 3 years.

I still talk to certain people in the school and they're all rah rah rah about it, cause its so awesome and everything the teachers say has to be true and anything they advise is one hundred percent the way to go. I wonder if its just that they're afraid to say that they disagree and are worried I'll rat them out to the school. I never mention parting ways due to misconduct or mistreatment, just that I wasn't into it.

I'm not sure what to say. its very disconcerting that this is the way people see clairvision, I have to say im worried about them being brainwashed and me being pushed away from some of the cool people I met there.

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Re: Samuel Sagan Clairvision
Posted by: grok ()
Date: September 15, 2021 10:19PM

Yes, I would say there were significant changes in peoples lives - sometimes for better, sometimes for worse. That's the thing, I do think some people benefited from these things, but others did not or were ultimately harmed. I mostly don't see a problem with these activities, to each their own as long as there is true consent, and if you're going to kill an animal, my personal belief is you should eat it, but still...

It's a typical cult red flag for people to change their morals and for cults to reprogram the way people see the world - I saw this a lot in Clairvision. That's why I shared this piece. I do question whether people are consenting to these things under duress or while they are out of their minds from doing so much IST. I don't necessarily feel like I can share anything more specific though.


oneclickwonder Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Grok... it sounds like there were some very
> significant shifts in people's lives here.
>
>
> I mean I see nothing wrong with participating in
> orgies or trying BDSM and having sex with a same
> sex partner as long as everything is consensual...
> but killing an animal just to know what it feels
> like?!?!?! That't terrible!
>
> Also, I find the notion of becoming a prostitute
> to be dangerous and risky, as well as quite
> potentially unhelpful to spiritual work, though I
> personally pass no judgement on sex workers and
> totally support them and their right to do
> whatever they want for a career.
>
> Do you have any details about this? Can you share
> more about what these people went through? How did
> they feel after? did you ever talk to them and get
> an idea of where these practices left them?
>
> I'm deeply disconcerted and would like to hear
> more.

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Re: Samuel Sagan Clairvision
Posted by: grok ()
Date: September 15, 2021 10:26PM

This is true, you do have to be at least 18 to participate in Clairvision courses. There were a couple times I did see kids on the retreat property, but I think it was a situation where the mom wanted to participate in a course but was still breastfeeding so the partner came up and took care of the kids while mom was in a course - the kids were not participating in a course.


mesche Wrote:
> Clairvision is not a place for kids
> though, there were never children at intensives or
> other workshops, and I think that is one of the
> good things about that particular school of
> meditation. It could get really bad if they were
> allowed to participate.

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Re: Samuel Sagan Clairvision
Posted by: grok ()
Date: September 15, 2021 10:33PM

Yes, I find it's been hard for me to find the right support as well - I had a therapist tell me that now I can be more discerning after going through this experience and other condescending remarks that make me feel like I should have seen this coming. The thing is, I was being discerning when I joined the group. I did my due diligence - at least as much as I could - there were only 2 posting here in this forum around the time I joined Clairvision and there wasn't anything else negative I could find about them on the internet. But when people are lying by omission it can easily seem like they are telling the truth - there is a lot of lying by omission in Clairvision. Sometimes people say the most unhelpful things trying to give advice about how to move on from these kinds of experiences.

I also sometimes really miss my friends I had from the school but I don't feel safe to contact them for fear of what they might report back to the group. Then I start to wonder what our connection was really about anyway, was it just a trauma bond? Probably... I started to realize this about many if not most of my relationships with people in the school - they were formed through trauma bonding

mesche Wrote:
> It's lonely getting out. I found a group at some
> point that was a meeting place for cult survivors
> and didn't even feel like I was allowed to be in
> it. Most had grown up in religious cults and were
> born into them. They were innocent. But I chose
> being part of a cult or whatever we should name
> such a group as an adult in my early twenties. The
> guilt and shame felt so inappropriate to share
> when some of them told horror-stories from when
> they were 8 and had no other options than to stay
> or die.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/15/2021 10:40PM by grok.

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