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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Truth wins ()
Date: May 19, 2022 04:30AM

Sorry if I get a bit too passionate about this subject.
I wish it was taken a bit more seriously. I know how many are kept hostage of such phenom.
I truly want to help souls not to put up with abuse of any kind. Especially spiritual.
No matter how many spiritual gifts or bliss we get, it is not worth having others kick us and keep us in fear.
I am slowly making peace with my cult misadventures, Trying to take the lessons and leave the pain and trauma behind.
If we are connected with one program obove all, it can be one of love.
Jesus without the chruch and fear.
Krishna without the guru and strange inmates.
Most path have made that relation to divinity, quite distorted. It has been quite a strange plan over all.
We must go beyond the teachings to find our own version of relating to divinity.
Goodbye group worship!
I only wish the best. It is truly a great blessing that we were able to find support in here.
No matter how different we are in many wasy, we have all helped each other heal some wounds.
Forgive my imperfections. I am still way behind. But at least it is not false humility.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: RUN_FOREST_RUN ()
Date: May 19, 2022 11:32AM

To each thier own.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: RUN_FOREST_RUN ()
Date: May 20, 2022 01:42AM

Krishna without the guru? What vaishnava path is that? The very scriptures say this is impossible.

I assume you trust the scriptures since they are the basis for even the idea of a krishna god.

I just think it is silly to claim allegiance to krishna but somehow reject that you need a guru. The very god himself dictates that you need a guru.

Anyway, I stand by my word. I am not here to argue your beliefs/ideas. But I will certainly point out flaws and what I believe to be a foolhardy method for healing from this cult. I can assure you that if you hold on to one aspect of it all, you naturally need to hold on to all aspects. OR, you reject the core ideology but pursue the tangible aspects that do have merit, for you, i.e. chant, play with a statue, offer your food to statue, read some silly myths and overall pick and choose the parts that appeal to your mind and senses. Hardly a deep spiritual practice.

These are not judgments. It's an observation. I'm curious how one resolves the dissonance of cherry-picking what suits them in the pursuit of the so-called "absolute" in a cult whose scriptures and gurus and even the god himself dicates surrender.

I see this shit all the time. Devotee kids squeaking about child abuse in ISKCON, but "I love krishna!". Give me a break. Keep loving your all-loving god who let you get butt-fucked by your "prabhu".

Why would anyone give allegiance to or have faith in a concept of divinity that shows their unconditional love by "messing with you". As part of some cosmic eternal lila. How is that any different than Christians stating that some atrocity is "part of gods plan". Gods plan for what? What was gods grand plan of divine love in creating a universe that thwarts your love for him at every turn by virtue of his cock-blocking energy, Mayadevi?

Anyway, I wish you luck. I hope you don't end up in some other naive krsihna group and expect it to be the "one". There is no shortage of them. They will not need a lot to get you to join them.

Fair warning. Nobody is "kept hostage" by these groups. You yourself keep yourself hostage and are to blame for any trauma you let yourself go through in these groups. No mystic power, visits in a dream or any other crap can "control" your mind and body unless you LET IT.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: RUN_FOREST_RUN ()
Date: May 20, 2022 11:21PM

Interesting reads:

[www.amazon.com]

[www.amazon.com]

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Culthusiast ()
Date: May 20, 2022 11:22PM

RUN_FOREST_RUN Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think we can all agree to disagree at this point
> that any substance we attribute to this path is
> largely based on some level of adherence to faith
> in its mechanisms.

In general, a lot of human existence is based on faith. Blind faith. For example, about the miraculous effect of supplements.


> I read and study and question
> these ideas, I have not found anything of
> irrefutable permanence in its expression as
> "absolute".

By the way, if we are talking about absolute truth, mathematics must also be part of it. Since the human mind uses mathematics, mathematics exists. It must also be an element of absolute truth.

> From Spirituality Without God by Peter Heehs on
> the qualities of those who reject supernaturaliam
> and religious ritualism:

Good quote.


> You cannot complain about rational and logical
> approaches to addressing what really goes on in
> cults like this on a mechanical, psychological
> level.

Analysis and experience showed that the rigor of SoI made mental problems worse. However, duality was present again. A number of practices can be considered positive, but the elements of the rigor resulted in the outgrowth of weeds or even cancerous growths.

On the other hand, testing of cult members in terms of confrontation with facts evokes the same reactions to this day: denial or frightening. Using fear. Which is especially relevant today, since Papa Midgett's official narrative rejects fear. As a measure.

> Culthusiest, I see many of your points in regard
> to butler and his extended missions. They are
> generally nice people. But as the basic aphorism
> goes: One can tell the tree by it's fruits.

The author of mantrujcie.pl made a certain division of people in cults / sects. He implicitly wrote this based on his experiences with SoI. The best questionnaire is the questionnaire and the option to choose "I am a cult board member".
So you can see the differences between gray sheep, activists and top leaders. Uninitiated and initiated. Involved in the organization of the sect and disengaged. Male and female. Since female leaders were dominant, this should be emphasized. And here many regularities can be observed.


> The end result of all of their devotion is a type
> of self-delusional idea that they will die and
> wake up in the cow planet of goloka in the form of
> some gopi or gopa or parent of god.

So why exchange a calf with tractor parts ... What a fall ...


> One of the main dangers if this practice is that
> it relies heavily in subjective imagination. God
> can look like whatever we consider attractive by
> mundane standards: big eyes, curves in the right
> places etc. One can for example see many
> Rajasthani paintings where Krishna is featured
> with a mustache, which probably was in Vogue at
> the time of the paintings. In more recent times,
> many people portray the gods with muscular
> physiques and so forth.
>
> One could in theory see that any attractive
> persons image can be viewed as an expression of
> the divine. One could worship a sexy man or base
> an image of krishna in an attractive classic
> painting, as many ISKCON painters did.

Yes, that's a good question. For the nature of attractions. The canons of beauty. About the role of archetypes present in the human mind or embedded in the form of a genetic code. Why, why shouldn't a large female spider be the most attractive essential ...

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity,
Posted by: Culthusiast ()
Date: May 20, 2022 11:30PM

Truth wins Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Even if one sees nothing mystical in a deity
> crying tears of blood or oil, some so called
> saints who had stigmatas on the palm of their
> hands, miracles happening in places such as
> Lourdes, apparitions… These are factors that give
> most humans hope that something beyond them
> exists.

If you can control the "spontaneous" creation of virtual pairs of particles, then you can do anything ...

> them. In the form of synchronicities, miracles,
> some extraordinary experiences.

Synchronicities are the easiest ones to explain. Basic solutions to differential equations ... First of all sinusoidal ... Then the Fourier series ... Converging series of course ...

> It is totally fine is some want to believe that
> krishna cosc is JUST a bunch of brainwashing
> mythology and that guru is just a skilled MK ultra
> agent.


Indian philosophy can be studied and compared with experience. The nature of body and mind, i.e. the elements of earth, water, fire, air, ether etc. you can relate to the pyramid of needs, and that's right. The lowest instincts are the survival instincts, then the higher ones are the maternal and so on. That's right.

And you can go further...


> Do not overestimate the selflessness and devotion
> of devotees.

Higher or lower needs...

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Culthusiast ()
Date: May 21, 2022 03:38AM

RUN_FOREST_RUN Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Krishna without the guru? What vaishnava path is
> that? The very scriptures say this is impossible.

Guru in what sense? In the sense of the position (the teacher in relation to the student - the foundation of personal teaching) or the guru as a personality different from the Personality of Godhead and yet being a transparent medium. There are some more details and cases in theology here. Because the Bhagavad Gita talks about Krishna giving the Gita to Vivasvan - the guru was not needed as a "transparent medium". In turn, however, in philosophy it says that there is One Guru - and that is Krishna, and then that it is Balarama. So the topic is more complex.

There are more unexplained dilemmas. There is one explanation for the Radha-Krishna relationship that it is the highest form of love not limited by conventions, social regulations, etiquette. But it is. Radha wife of Abhimanyu does not meet Krishna in front of the people. She does it in secret. There is no "full freedom". So there is an "imprint" on this relationship and character through this "social limitation". Notwithstanding that Abhumanyu is to be "neutral" and Krishna is the actual husband.

Of course it can be considered - anthropomorphically or not - that all relationships are present in the Absolute, where a woman can be as "mother, wife, and lover". For this "sister", "daughter", "grandmother", "aunt", "babysitter". Which is the first? Mother or lover? If Radha is a lover, who is Candravali? And so on.

A natural relationship, love, without conventions, that is, a free "man" and a "free" woman. But there are "regulations" in Vrindavan. The shepherds go with the cows during the day. Then Radha and Krishna do not meet. There are further limitations. The freedom of merely "limiting the presence of Abhimanyu" is quite narrow. And "immoral".



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 05/21/2022 03:44AM by Culthusiast.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Truth wins ()
Date: May 21, 2022 07:32PM

If that level of being in control of our minds was so easily obtained, our society would not be in this shape.
There are many factors that makes it so people end up being hostage of spiritual communities.
If one had such strong sense of self and their psyche, they would not trust a semi lunatic such as butler.
Do you realize that many of us are the results of dysfunctional families. You grow up in abuse, this becomes your norm and standard.
Humans get hypnotized 24/7 by narcissists, psychopaths, scammers, politicians and their lies, media brainwashing…
How many souls walk around with a critical thinking mind that questions everything?
Getting stuck at SOI is both a complex psychological as well as a spiritual game.
Let us not get overly harsh here. Tell everybody that they let the abuse happen…
I understand that ultimately we are all responsible to some extent of our fate.
But I am just explaining the strong hypnosis that keeps those who suffer, hostage.
Because let us not forget that not everybody in these groups is unhappy.
The minds, souls, hearts are surrendered. Good luck taking them back.
In this forum, which is dedicated to cults, we are trying to understand what makes it so people end up in cults and cannot get out. Not so much blaming or shaming those who fall for it.
And I do my best to explain how I, as a whole, got highjacked. And the “extraordinary” phenom aspect, was key in trapping me.
I do not give my legions to any deities nor path.
I am absolutely suspicious of all the info that has been given to us in general.
I have realized that there is a dark side to almost everything in this reality.
And most are afraid of that dark side. Mostly afraid of our own darkness.
And here we are speaking of the dark side of Krishna consc. The ugly side that many do not dare looking at. Because ugliness does not exist in vaikunta.
I think that I have been quite clear in my posts that I call the unseen forces out. Be it deities or demonic forces.
Maybe in this realm of duality, we must give up expecting just goodness and perfection in spiritual communities.
When we eat some foods, we take the pit out, we peel the skin of, we cook some food… Why are we forced to accept a religious path as it is?
I absolutely question all religious paths. And I am not afraid to do so as suggested by the mafiosi gods and their messengers.
bhakti yoga says you NEED guru and provide us with some pedo, narcissists, ocd, criminal ones?
This is where we use our intelligence and get it that in the past 40 plus years, this system has proven to be dangerous.
To hell with “divine” rules and instructions if it is meant to destroy souls.
Ultimately there is no perfection to be found. Not in humans, religious paths and the gods of religions.
Once we give up that romantic feeling, we will no longer hurt.
We must compromise, adapt, accept, forgive…
Our own kids, wives, husbands, parents… are far from being perfect. And yet imagine if everybody got a divorce from each other.
It is time to think that some higher beings are absolutely flawless in their love for us.
Let us not twist things around and alchemize too much. See abuse as mercy, glorify suffering as paying off karma, gods throwing us out as free will.
We must have courage to look at the ugliness of this reality without the blissful side of religions, some mind altering drugs, denial, ultra positive thinking, that god is in control and at the end there will be rainbows.
I am all for honesty.
The same way we can easily spit out the faults of our relatives, friends… We should be able to point out the negative sides of religious paths and gurus.
The fact that we are FORCED to consider those paths and deities, gurus perfect, is what keeps perpetuating the suffering.
SoI and Iskcon tell you why you are here and how to get out. Then they throw you in a spiritual hell hole.
From material hell to spiritual hell. But it is always easier to suffer in the hands of gods than humans.
This is why there is always talk of unconditional love.
Without unconditional so called love, we could hardly accept other humans and divine forces.
What makes life easier at the Krishna consc. realm is the constant chipping of the ego and self respect. Hear no evil. See no evil.
And accept the miseries under the bliss morphine that needs to be injected every single day or else you may realize the pain.
In this land of duality I see more like an experiment gone wrong, bhakti yoga is still offering some valuable lessons and methods.
Most “humans” still struggle. Trapped in crappy jobs, marriages, poverty, mental ilnesses, addictions, horrible politics…
A very minute percentage is living the great material illusion.
For “some” it comes down to accepting a crappy spiritual community or a crappy material life.
And I guess that the crappy spiritual community still gets more points.
And once again, the truth is that many who leave the service of krishna are forced back in via some non human manipulation.
I have seen it a multitude of times. A person leaves and their lives become more hellish. They are also injected thoughts of krishna and guru 24/7. Filled with the guilt that they missed out on the greatest opportunity to exist Maya’s world.
Next thing you know, they are back after 10 or 20 years.
The human body, psyche, this reality, spirituality, the unseen, the seen… are all way too complex for us to try and simplify or generalize.
There is no need to get frustrated at each other for looking at bhakti yoga, this material realm, cults… from different perspectives.
The only way we can all see the same thing and think the same way is to be in the cult and act like robbots.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Truth wins ()
Date: May 21, 2022 10:50PM

Before we come to blame ourselves for letting others abuse us, we must also hold the abusers accountable.
Noone has any business abusing anoybody else. Especially in spiritual communities where we get as fragile and trusting as toddlers.
Where the leaders of the centers are supposed to be representing the so called pure devotee of god on earth who loves us “unconditionally”.
Even though I was raised amongst some major vampires in my own family, seen the worse of humanity and experienced spiritual abuse, it took me my whole life to understand that I cannot be so naive with “humans”.
I entered this realm with no shields. And empath who never understood the harshness that operates on this planet. A desire to take the suffering of others on sacrificing myself.
I feel sad that we cannot really feel safe anywhere.
Krishna consc shapes you into being a tolerant doormat. It encourages you to take abuse like a champ. It teaches you to he a coward who trusts that big daddy krishna and karma will take care of the injustices. And ultimately YOU have deserved it all.
F the bhaktas are supposed to be the hope for humanity, then we are truly in deep crap.
Those who do well in these snake pits are the super smart ones. Those who have never been abused as kids or adults and will not let anybody abuse them.
Those who have some looks, strong syche, good personalities and talents. So that the likes of midgett, bellord, tibby will lure you (or pimp you) into marrying their sons or daughters.
That is a great move to be in the elite circle.
Next move is to start your own center alone with the approval of the elite such as midgett. Avoid the drama and disgusting behaviors of the center I was in.
Yes. It take great strategy to roam the swamps of spiritual communities.
They are as vile and horrible as any other society. They are far from being heart centered beings. They still have a long way to go.
And are far from calibrated to be leaders and teachers. They ae as clueless as the guy next door. Just trying to live by some higher spiritual values.
Not walking on an ant or killing a spider, yet you treat those who serve your beloved lords, like dirt. It makes huge sense.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Truth wins ()
Date: May 22, 2022 12:59AM

And one more thing. The mystic powers “crap” as you name it, are way more luring than anybody can imagine.
And they can also be used to scare a person.
It also depends how big or small the phenom is.
Another thing that is very important to remember is that all “minds” are different.
And yes we can get very tough to motivate others. We all know that the mind is a very powerful tool. It is mostly used against ourselves most times.
Maybe some have minds that function like a Ferrari and others have minds that are like an old car that can barely function.
Not to speak of having the psyche taken over in the case of full blown psychosis.
If it was so easy not to be held hostage in cults, there would not be millions stuck in such cults.
You can fool some with chocolates, flowers, compliments, a necklace, an expensive car... What to speak of phenom that surpass the imagination.
And to get to that super tough mental state, we must first go through a tone of obstacles and make many mistakes.
And maybe some are not even interested in playing this game and go beyond their limits.
And some are just simple people who live from the heart and do not pay do much attention to fall into holes.
Maybe they truly are like Haridas and do not get bothered by the abuse and do not even see that stuff as abuse.
Can we blame a woman getting raped after someone puts a pill in their drink?
And this is exactly what happens to people who get trapped int many of these paths. Smart, good looking, educated, kind… souls fall for the mystic and bliss trap.
Otherwise these cults would all be empty.
People who enter these paths, do not use so much resistance. Like the guru entered my dreams and answered my question. What a load of crap.
I just had an buect appear out of the blue and some objects disappear. Oh boy that must be the greatest load of crap I have ever seen.
The deities drank half the glass you have offered them. Who cares! That stuff happens all the time.
Those who enter such paths is because they want to be connected with the so called mystic. They are attracted to the Jesus style miracles and all the mind blowing events in all scriptures.
Let us just remember that we are unique. Our minds, our views, our experiences are all unique. Our motivations, how well we can play this dense 3 D jungle game.
Every single player in this game is a unique model.
Anyway, seems as though my insights are not even worth a penny.

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