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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Culthusiast ()
Date: May 22, 2022 04:22AM

Truth wins Wrote:
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> bhakti yoga says you NEED guru and provide us with
> some pedo, narcissists, ocd, criminal ones?

No, that's not true.

[popularvedicscience.com]

Keeping at least the scriptures of the system:

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A sober person who can control the urge to speak, the mind, the urges of anger, the tongue, belly, and genitals is qualified to make disciples all over the world.

(Upadesamrita 1)

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One who accepts disciples for personal service and fame is unfit to be a guru.

(Vishnu Smriti)

One can analyze the facts and events to see if the gurus known to us are hungry for fame and personal service. Something comes to mind? Too many kitchen staff?

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Many gurus take advantage of their disciples and plunder them. They exploit their disciples for sex, and use them to amass wealth, but a geniune guru who can remove a disciple’s misery is very rare.

(Gaudiya-kanthahara 1.48)

For comparison - another system:

Leaving a Guru – Discriminating bad from good Gurus

[thedorjeshugdengroup.files.wordpress.com]

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Proud, ruled by anger, and lacking vows,
greedy, without knowledge, working to deceive disciples,
a mind that has fallen from great bliss,
without initiation, totally attached to wealth,
unaware, of harsh and coarse words, filled with carnal desire,
the wise disciples should abandon taking such people
as causes of complete enlightenment
as they would abandon hell.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Truth wins ()
Date: May 22, 2022 08:21PM

Finding a genuine saintly person in this age of corruption will be quite a rare thing.
As I explained here many times, there is too much sentimentalities and extraordinary involved in this path in order for one to stay objective.
When you let your emotions, synchronicties and some magical phenom guide you, you almost no longer have your own judgment going on.
Imagine how many in the west have knowledge of what a real guru should be like.
And you cannot find them in the supermarket.
Also how often is the subject coming up, fearing the elephant offense. The whole do not judge anybody…
Even after the very open scandals, many books written, the majority still glorify the fake gurus of Iskcon.
The power of illusion is much greater than anybody can imagine. Even murder does not phase devotees.
In this day and age, it is quite dangerous to enter any spiritual community.
You honestly never know what quality souls are going to land there.
And I have noticed that those who have soft hearts, are more empathic, wamt to do the good, will be assigned very destructive people to break them.
And what better place to find such souls than in spiritual communities.
We can kind of cheat fate when we are extremely aware. When we no longer fall for the simulated emotions and external signs.
But when you are not 10000 aware of how this reality works, you will think thatnthe divine magically designed your life.
You take every austerity as the will of krishna. He wants me to stay at this center, suffer and learn… You just become a robbot in the hands of guru, lord in the heart, other devotees and disciples.
These are all personal choices in life. And to give up our will is a way to simplify this very strange human game.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Culthusiast ()
Date: May 23, 2022 04:02PM

Truth wins Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> And I have noticed that those who have soft
> hearts, are more empathic, wamt to do the good,
> will be assigned very destructive people to break
> them.

This is an important observation and conclusion, but the mechanism is known. It is important, however, to emphasize this.

Basically, gentle, cooperative personalities, even naive ones, or those that adopt a higher ideology of helping, cooperating, "converting sinners", "giving sinners a chance through their attitude" - are easier to exploit. Short-term or long-term.

Different personalities may indeed find the cult model ideal for leading an easy life. Hence, the form of the codification of rights in a sect is important. In the form of scripture regulation.

If a cult is to be credible, it should stick to the rules. The first symptoms of decline appear when leaders justify self-interested, breaking rules.

Example: devotees in Poland. It is obvious that business is self-interested and profit-oriented. However, whether in a sect, cult, or normal economic environment, certain rules apply. Formalized as, for example, economic or informal law.

The first thing - worship should be of a higher standard, at least internally. After all, in this case it is treating "devotee" or those in need of better protection.

And when the "devotee" businesses were established in Poland, the narrative quickly appeared "because I run my business for Krishna, they should work for me for free." Of course, there is a problem with where to get food and clothes. The "brilliant" mind of the businessman will tell you that according to the Vedas they will be given food and old clothes, and they will assume the role of sudras in a fantastic way.

When certain businessmen generated violations, one charismatic leader said "they have to be like that." The question was raised again - in cult or beyond cult? Where are the laws and regulations?

This type of tolerant attitude, resulting from the "mating of leaders with businessmen" - subsidies, the same wave or caste level.

I watched it. What was the effect? After 1 decade, I talked to a very empathetic, sick devotee. It turned out that she worked for such "businessmen" and did not get any money for the work. Oh, because she is weak, because she can't control, etc. She was not paid the money corresponding to the contract.

Not only did she not get money for the work done with great effort, she lost time, she has no money and her health will not improve.

M* dasi or I* dasi would say that they must be like that, blah blah blah. Not cute. There is a civil code and a criminal code as an imperfect manifestation of Yama, and such a motherfucker can be taught the rules. Quickly, hardly..And the underworld takes care of these topics in its own way. "Comprendes, Mendes?"

There are many examples along the history of the cult. No changes. No "advancement". Cult gives "nothing" in spiritual terms. No change.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 05/23/2022 04:06PM by Culthusiast.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Truth wins ()
Date: May 23, 2022 08:35PM

It is quite shameful that empathic souls cannot feel safe in a setting that goes beyond the Christian values.
This is truly the betrayal that cuts like a knife. How they just walk all over you when you actually act the way you are supposed to.
This is why hostile enviroment such as SoI do not encourage one to safely attain the so called pure devotee goal.
Imagine being a Haridas Thakura that gets lapidated by devotees instead of demons.
What to speak of the Acarya being one of the entities you must defend yourself from.
Ultimately one who attains that level, may not be bothered by having devotees act like wolves.
I had a funny thought come into my mind. If unconditional love is the goal, then ending up at SoI can really boost your advancement.
It is the place that pushes you to accept and love a guru who treats you so bad at times.
It makes you a JOB automatically and many SoI devotees pass the JOB test with an
A+++.
I guess same goes with Iskcon. They do not see the demon who is sitting on the Acarya chair.
They see the pure spirit souls (servants of the lord) behind the cheaters and abusers body shell.
Maybe souls we look at as not so advanced, naive or brainwashed, are indeed next level pure.
I guess I missed out on the opportunity to let abuse purify me like a dove.
I truly messed up the goal of life and the chances of dying prematurally of an autoimmune disorder. We were all a potential pure devotee in the making.
We have aborted our graduation.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Truth wins ()
Date: May 31, 2022 01:37AM

It truly does not matter what we each think about the process. It is an individual experience.
It is sad that after the nasty setting of SoI , we start to attack each other in here about our different views and our personal journeys on the path.
I know that I can be an ass at times. The healing process from a lifetime of abuse is not easy.
I am rebuilding a new version of myself and I guess it will take a while before I purge all the hurt and anger.
No matter what, as I said it many times, thank you all so much for keeping the convo alive.
I learned many new things about the Vedas in here.
I hate the please forgive me SoI style. I take ownership for anything l have said that has irritated some or many.
I guess it is better to get real and raw time to time versus crawling on the floor with false humility. Carry the poison and not say anything while we are boiling within.
There is this classic self help book in which the author says:
Ultimately nothing matters.
And this is truly the way it is. We are here just for a short time and we have no proof about anything other than blind faith.
Sorry if the vibes went south because of me or what I may have said.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Culthusiast ()
Date: May 31, 2022 02:46PM

Truth wins Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It truly does not matter what we each think about
> the process.

The question is - which/what process?

Yoga? Yama, niyama, asana, pratyahara ....?

Bhakti-yoga? sraddha, sadhu-sanga, bhajana-kriya, anartha nivrtti, nistha, ruci, asakti, bhava, prema?

Follow the Bhagavad Gita? "Do not approach the gurus in Hawaii, do not ask any questions (and definitely tricky) and serve with devotion (preferably to the sect and the businesses of the leaders of the first wave of recruitment - these are businesses for God, so they pay little or no money at all)

Yoga-nidrification? MLM -ization? Mouth-tearing by mantra.pl?

Dev-botization? By engaging in an extremely simple process formalized by "kitchen-policies"?

Or maybe the character formation process in the guru kula in the Philippines? Electric shower, cold, egotism control test by observing a specially treated guru son who will provoke you to visit a prostitute when older colleagues molest you and then contract a venereal disease)

Prakrita-sahajization?

Or maybe misra-everything - making your mind a total brothel ...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/31/2022 02:48PM by Culthusiast.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Culthusiast ()
Date: May 31, 2022 02:53PM

"If you put the milk bubble in front of the pseudo guru's house 10,000 times, you will achieve oneness with the milk and a great bliss as well as the fly that has fallen into the milk. The process is beneficial to all beings around you ..."

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Truth wins ()
Date: June 02, 2022 10:46PM

None of these fancy words.
The process we entered in, was fear and salvery mixed with some joy, peace and bliss.
The Western, decadent unqualified version which turns devotees into atheists.
It is only the power of illusion that keeps people alive and ready to follow such toxic bs rules.
If people woke up from the trance, butler and his wife would be busy washing their toilets.
As I said it before, I will not fully judge Vaishnavism based on my experiences at SoI.
One can fear a shark attack, a gangster, the mafia… out of the instinct of being danger.
But fear in a spiritual setting, is the greatest red flag and should alert ypu to leave. And yet I stayed in the midst of the horror movie for years.
We facilitate the exorcism of many at the cost of our own faith.
Yes you are right?
How do you call the Exorcism and mental hospital version of Krishna Consc?
I think that even the imitation version has some potency. This is what keeps people around. Because they still change and experience many spiritual things.
Nasty people still change for the better after 40 years of destroying many lives.
I cannot imagine that the SoI devotees will always believe that they have been given the real deal. The real acharya…
It hurts to see the truth for what it is really. I know that the SoI devotees are on their own planet and happy with that illusion.
They will die in peace. What you don’t know won’t hurt you. This is all that they will live by: AN ILLUSION.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Truth wins ()
Date: June 02, 2022 11:17PM

I was thinking that Krishna cons. is a positive thing is many ways.
Like how it forces you to control your mind and thoughts. To be responsible for your actions…
Try to always make the right decision that is not harmful to you and others…
Since I have lost my faith and the desire to please god and guru 24/7, I am not as much of a sweet doormat.
It is meant to make your life a bit easier in this jungle by protecting you from your mind, senses, the outside world, Maya…
You are not going to go out and look for trouble on purpose. Get drunk, gamnble, go from one partner to the next, get addicted…
However it is still not very complete. It has not told you to protect yourself from semi demonic gurus and devotees.
It turns you way too much into Mashed potatoe. Killing the warrior caste and leaving mostly Sudras. I mean at SOI, most are juts slaving all day long.
They want obedient slaves.
It is still better to wash butler’s dishes than to be shooting people on the streets.
Imagine if you have a super kind leader. Then you create your own community. Kind of like the Amish. Off the grid, self sufficient.
Let us say all devotees there live from a soul space. They just cook, study, read scripture. Normal clothing. Non fanatical.
All day long they trip and speak of the pastimes of krishna…
Forget the miseries of the outside world. Never really hear about the news…
It could be quite a nice life. If love was the driving force.
But when you mix it with all the ego trips, different personalities, having foot in the material realm (insta, facebook, twitter, netflix, politics…), then you have to deal with the BS that we see with our eyes now.

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Feeling Afraid Without Knowing We Feel Afraid
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: June 03, 2022 12:38AM

Truth wins wrote:

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But fear in a spiritual setting, is the greatest red flag and should alert you to leave. And yet I stayed in the midst of the horror movie for years.

The worst trap is feeling afraid and not knowing we feel afraid.

In a situation like this, we do not feel our fear, we have become our fear.

Likewise, in this situation we do not feel our anger, we have become our anger.

When disowned these valuable boundary emotions do not energize us to fight against or leave abusive relationships.

An abuser/leader of a cult fosters what psychologist Alexandra Stein has termed 'fearful attachement'/'disorganized attachment' --- an unpredictable combination of yearning and fear.

Only after we are 'hooked' will the abuser begin inflicting threats, fear of being shamed in public, fear of getting kicked out, fear of losing one's sense of belonging fear of supernatural misfortune condemning us to lifelong misery if we entertain doubts.

When a relationship is vital our sense of happiness, purpose, hope we crave to hold onto it and fear losing it.

When an abuser first hooks us, he or she gets us to value and crave the feel good effects he or she fosters -- and to privilege the relationsip as being scarce and special.

Humans react to this with neurological changes that get us attached.

"Hooked". We are social mammals and are wired for this.

We feel passionately bonded value this bond, want to maintain this bone -- and want to assign it high priority.

We ignore anything that undercuts this.

Domineering people and their servants seek to monopolize the information that comes to us - we are discouraged from talking to anyone outside the relationship or are even punished. We are kept too busy for outside friendships.

Only after we are 'hooked' will the abuser unpredictably begin inflicting threats, fear of being shamed in public, fear of getting kicked out, fear of losing one's sense of belonging fear of supernatural misfortune condemning us to lifelong misery if we entertain doubts.

This is how fearful attachment/disorganized attachment are fostered.

We develop a split between our conscious awareness of loving the leader versus our awareness of troubing incidents that undercut our love and trust -- these are shoved aside.

When enough time passes our fear becomes a secret we keep from ourselves.

This is how we can become afraid without conscious awareness of feeling scared.

We become angry without conscious awareness of feeling angry.

This is the Superglue/Gorilla tape that keeps so many of us from leaving abusive relationships or groups.

Our awareness is fractured because of this internal split.

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