Re: Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by: rrmoderator ()
Date: June 13, 2008 10:01PM

SoI Kills:

You are not moderating this message board.

Stop slamming members of the board personally.

If you continue down this road first you will lose your auto-approve status and then you may be banned.

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10-31 memo
Posted by: Vera City ()
Date: June 13, 2008 11:56PM

This memo clearly marked “letter available to all disciples” shows CB in a false light. It shows a persona people thought they were following, but not the real person. It has already been shown that CB had no compassion for the health and well being of his followers. He may have had a heart for a dying bee, what he calls a “lower species of life” in the letter. “…I give them material care and spiritual care to the best of my ability without over doing it in the sense of spending 2 or 3 hours at the beach sitting with the bee.” In his father Willis Butler’s memoir about his mother, “Barbara: Memoir of Love Affair”, the senior Butler is clearly disappointed with his guru son because of the lack of visits he has with his mother dying of cancer. I guess he considered his dying mother less than a lower species of life.

In true narcissistic style he would have short visits to his dying mother where he would bring garlands made by his followers. In his mind CB thought he was bringing her “maha prasadam” (the highest, holiest leftovers from a “pure devotee” – anything that touched the body of the 'messiah' supposedly becomes transformed and possesses purifying powers). Willis writes in his book, “Chris brought gorgeous leis, often on January 13. Barb insisted sentimentally that he chose that day because it was his birthday.” I’d say she was being sarcastic!

Willis is respectful towards his son Chris in the book, but makes it clear that he does not buy into his son’s religion. “There are moments, rare ones, when I envy Bruce’s and Chris’s facile understanding of the body-soul relationship. Too bad it is based on a creed reflected in garish paintings of what Barb and I used to call (only privately, never to our sons) “little purple boys, beige fawns, and pink-girl children”… I once lashed out…, “I don’t want to hear about the subtle body and the gross body. I miss Ma!” Willis also writes, “Kris appeared for awhile and sat on her bed, whisper chanting “Hare Krishna.” I wished later I had played some of her favorite music.” About the funeral, “I called Chris and left a message with a secretary, of course. [Willis could not ever call his son directly.] He called back: “I probably won’t come, I’m not much for partying.” (his word)…he would not care for any event at which he was not the center of attention, with stately entrance, much bowing over folded hands, etc.”

I wonder if Willis Butler is aware of how much damage his son has done to the lives of many people…

The memo that follows is in stark contrast to the way CB lives his “real” life. There is the famous tape where he riles against a woman suffering from bulimia and a mother concerned about her child’s cough. So much for preaching compassion for lower or even higher species of life…

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/13/2008 11:59PM by Vera City.

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Portrait of a Yahoo
Posted by: Vera City ()
Date: June 14, 2008 12:09AM


The Fool with the Toothpaste Smile

"We suffer the disparity between the real and the ideal."

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Re: Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by: SoI Kills ()
Date: June 14, 2008 12:47AM

I realize that Rick. Let me put it this way. You have mentioned for yourself many times the amount of trolls that posted on this thread. There were those you have banned that re-registered and were banned again.

You may not be entirely familiar with the SoI cult so here is an explanation:

Have you ever noticed
On any other thread on this forum
Or any other forum on the internet
That people don't actually talk like this
It gets
terribly annoying to read, agreed
Many people have posted on this forum in this manner

Chris Butler speaks like this only during his lectures and is great for brainwashing. The extra effort needed to concerntrate on his subjects (that often don't go anywhere like many posts on this thread) makes it difficult to remain focused for an entire lecture while he fills your head with garbage.

Chris butler and his followers don't actually speak this, it's only when he performs his lectures:

In the Bhagavad Gita
Chapter 8
Krishna says.. and so on.

Have you ever noticed on this forum or any other forum that people don't regularly repost an entire post with the comment "Well Said, Had to post this again"

"Have you ever noticed on this forum or any other forum that people don't regularly repost an entire post with the comment "Well Said, Had to post this again""

Again it's extremely annoying to read the same stuff over and over. Conversations on this thread also cycle like no other forum I have ever known. Much like a Chris Butler lecture. Also there is over use of emotional (or sentimental) or unsubstantiated posts as opposed to factually based information. I have seen other threads on this forum and in no way are they similar. Butler the "scientist" is notorious for this.

Have you noticed that on no other forum do members endlessly use analogies or comparisons to prove their points. Butler will state "Horses don't come from the ocean because there are no horses there. Therefore God is a person because personality can't come from God if He does not have personality." Rather than have his followers actually study theology, and in the process realize that he is not who he says he is, a simple analogy will suffice.

There is constant speculation: "might have", "could be", "kind of" "sort of" conversations that have little relevance to anything. The question of what Chris Butler would think about the New World Order, would not be of any interest to anyone, anywhere even if it were possible to answer this question. And yes it is Chris Butler that asks these sorts of questions.

Basically it has come down to the current posters and their respective blathering posts that no one of sound mind would actually read. This forum started out with people posting actual views and after years of these trolls making this thread an extremely unpleasant place to be these people slowly died off. Noone genuine will actually post here.

In the past you actually supported Zelig until you were presented with information that proved he was the same person who refered to you as a Witch hunter. His role here was to spread misinformation about the cult. Now all he needs to do is sign up again like the rest of the trolls and started posting bullshit once more. He is now posting as Vera. Does a person need to go to the effort of proving every single poster is trolling when there are so many. It would be a full time position. Or it might make it easier to make restrictions on the type of information posted and especially stop the endless irrelevant posts.

In the past you have suggested posting a new thread but the same issue exists that there is no safe gaurd against trolls posting pages of mind numbing crap or even signing up as new members.

The only other two solutions I can make is just let it go or lock the thread and not let anyone speak on SoI but either way the trolls win. The second solution seems like the better option rather than let a cult run a thread on your site.

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Re: Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by: rrmoderator ()
Date: June 14, 2008 02:50AM


How about none of the above.

The Ross Institute message board includes almost 50,000 posts and this thread is a small part of that content.

I will continue to watch this thread though for violations of the rules.

Try to get along.

The recent posts by Vera City are interesting.

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Re: Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by: just-googling ()
Date: June 14, 2008 02:58AM

SoI Kills
Not to single dassi out but let's look at Googlings performance over 6 months prior to this latest documents phase:

March 26 - talks about Bob Dylan

Thanks for documenting my latest posts over the last six months ... I didn't know my poetry was so appreciated! I love you! (where is that blushing emoticon when you need it?)


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Re: Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by: just-googling ()
Date: June 14, 2008 03:08AM

Vera City
Oh yeah, you can go down the IGG brochures line by line (all written by CB) and compare the ideals to the reality!
He has become exactly what he puts down!
You know, they say you become what you focus on -- in this case it is true.

So true ... this is why some are not calling it Science of identity but...



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Re: Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by: SoI Kills ()
Date: June 14, 2008 04:40AM

Yeah the trolls have gotten much more savy to your rules over the years. You took a couple of times convincing the last time he disappeared aswell. Zelig initially was arduously arguing that brainwashing did not exist remember. A month or two after you banned him for this and he came back claiming that he had just found this forum and brainwashing was now a true phenomena.

When you banned him the second time there were at least four complaints about him. Firstly was his lack of posting actual information and his criticisms of Cara. He also was posting false information and his claims that the cult was not at all that bad were frequent despite the conflicting messages he sent.

This time he came back posting documents about the cult, responding with the very serious "I am posting information about the cult and these are proof that they are a dangerous cult, period." His criticisms of Cara have dramatically decreased so that is a positive right. So that's three out of four complaints he has improved on.

The issue is that he is still posting the same misinformation about the cult. Just like the Zelig and the Initiate incarnation prior to this he has used information to set himself up as a type of authority on this thread. He is the only one who has spoken with such confidence in his own opinion. Googling as his side kick everytime. His time frame in the cult matches including his involvement in IGG and unique knowledge of the ponomauloa School.

Read the following post of Vera's that I joined to a post of Zeligs. Although the subject matter of the two are very obviously different note how well they seemlessly still match up. The tone, the use of grammar, the accentuation all matches perfectly:

"What follows are the first of some new found documents that prove much of what has been told on this and other forums about Chris Butler (CB) and his group. There are two types of documents; public, self-promotional materials and private memos to initiated disciples. The dates range from around 1977 to 1989. They will show the discrepancies between the incense-scented smoke screens and the reality of an abusive and dangerous cult leader.

I will be posting signed documents proving Senator Mike Gabbard’s (aka Krishna Katha das) involvement in this cult, a very revealing transcript about educating children in CB’s cult, a letter from Vaishnava dasi (VD) lamenting the poor treatment her husband was receiving, Independents for Godly Government (IGG) brochures, the original “Dear Fanatic” interview first printed in the Valley Isle newspaper (that CB secretly ran, using Rick Reed as his front man), memos about CB’s personal care (complaints), memos with CB chastising his followers. You will see the dichotomy between the projected holy man image and the greedy, petulant whiner who uses others for his own means. He defines a spirituality that only allows for his own worship and behaves like a Soprano in his day to day life.

The first artifact is the original newspaper printed after the death of ISKCON founder/ guru A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupad (ACB). CB wrote this self-promotion piece to justify his delusions of grandeur and to appoint himself as a “Prabhupad”, a “Jagad Guru” (guru of the world). Chris Butler had his followers distribute this all over Hawaii and California. It was typeset, laid out, photographed, and illustrated by the same followers who published The Valley Isle, The Garden Isle, all the Independents for Godly Government brochures, Down to Earth ads, Katyayani’s cookbooks, and many more print projects in the 1970’s and 1980’s. This was all done by free labor. The crews were housed and fed. Not much else. This was published prior to video productions and the infamous WAREHOUSE studios. It was also distributed before he married Wai Lana, aka Vaishnava dasi (VD). It was published after the IGG campaigns.

The following article, “Acharya- Appointed, Elected, or Self-Effulgent” was CB’s attempt to justify his self-appointment as “guru of the world”. This will be of interest to the followers of the Vaishnava religion who feel their philosophy was hijacked and exploited by CB. Cult researchers will get an all too familiar glimpse, yet unique manifestation of a dangerous cult. For former members, this will be both bitter and hilarious. The title itself is absurdly narcissistic. Acharya is another word for some sort of messiah. Clearly, CB fancied himself as self-effulgent, rather than the perilous reality, “Self-Indulgent”.

I am not a “cult apologist” as evidenced by all of my posts. Even the above quotes illustrate my pointing out some of the ‘red flags’ of a cult--- Siddhaswarupananda’s secrecy, estrangement from his family, and hypocrisy (having made everyone believe his father to be this yelling, heartless, materialist). I posted under another name so that I could continue to contribute to the forum. My critics and others have done the same.

Also, it is possible to have one’s opinions change and evolve when new information is presented. People change, places change. When I first took the “10 Signs” test, that is what I honestly assessed, based on my perceptions at the time. I actually felt good about the fact that it wasn’t as bad as some cults. It was enough to have escaped for the reasons I shared. I had not examined my experiences up to that time as much as I have in the last 12 months. At the time, (as ‘initiate’ on 5-17-06), I had yet to make the contacts and friendships to discuss freely with other exes that I currently have. I am not qualified to take the “10 Signs” test for the Cult of Butler 2007, as I have no direct experience of it. In light of what other’s are sharing or if I had different experiences, I would have scored differently.

Communicating with other exes opened up my understanding, even the with the ones who wish to continue to quarrel. I still stand by all my posts. The only exception is that I now know how easily it is to manipulate even intelligent and educated people. I understand that brainwashing and mind control is a lot more subtle than I initially believed. I now feel that we gentle people are more susceptible to our environment than I once believed. This is something that “initiate” did not completely comprehend. Note ‘zelig’s’ poll question, “Did you know you were in a cult when you were in a cult?” The majority said “No.”, including myself. I would not have thought to ask such a question prior to learning more on this website and elsewhere.

I can understand how people can misconstrue my posts and recently have tried to more carefully explain my points of view. I believe in accurate reporting without embellishment. I question everything. I also go through periods where I feel ambivalent about my past in the cult. I am not however, ambivalent about the harm done by the cult of Butler, Aish, Chabad, Hare Krishna, or any other! Anyone who follows my posts will get this. But you will see a pattern with me that seems contradictory, without understanding the qualifyers. With both the CB cult and Chabad; I don't see things in black and white. That is part of my personality. I try to look at the positive in life. I have a core belief system that sees an ultimately benevolent universe and everything is ultimately for the good. So readers can take that in mind when they read my posts. That said, it does not mean that I lay down passively when I see lies and injustice or throw out all of my critical thinking skills. On the contrary, focusing on the greater good makes one’s critical thinking skills sharper. One should question everything and look at issues from many sides. And one should use these tools in all aspects of one’s life.

My past experience with CB taught me some valuable lessons, but so have many other life experiences, both good and bad. That does not make me an apologist. I have learned that over time Siddhaswarupananda has become progressively more paranoid and obnoxious, but have known him to be a con man for a long time. Even in my most idealistic days I would not have eaten his toe nails! I offer opinions that differ from a few, but not all. That’s life. The free exchange of ideas is healthy. We do not all have to agree. I have not lobbied for censorship. I have not flamed anyone. I have been civil and focused on ideas and not people. I hope that I will continue to have the right to post and have a flame-free experience on this forum. As Rick said, “This is a huge thread with much information. Let's not ruin it with petty arguments and "flaming." Please be courteous and allow each other some space and understanding. Everyone does not need to agree on everything. Each person posting here has their own history with the group and personal situation. There may be some differences in individual experiences and perhaps specific interests. Please don't allow personality clashes ruin the dialog and exchange of ideas here.”

We copied the documents already and will be posting them on the website for all to see.

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Re: Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by: just-googling ()
Date: June 14, 2008 06:12AM

Hi Vera, thanks for posting the latest pages...

seeing how my poetry has become so popular, this little limerick came to mind:

There was a man from Hawaii
Who saved the life of a bee...
He said "Look at me"
I'm a Maharaji
and lived a life of hypocricy!

sorry, couldn't resist :0)


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Re: Krishna group in Hawaii
Posted by: just-googling ()
Date: June 14, 2008 08:42AM

Read the following post of Vera's that I joined to a post of Zeligs. Although the subject matter of the two are very obviously different note how well they seemlessly still match up. The tone, the use of grammar, the accentuation all matches perfectly:

WHAT A COINCIDENCE! It seems that the tone, use of grammar and belligerent writings of SoI Kills matches perfectly with that of cultreporter!!!!!!!


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