Re: Krishna group in Hawaii
Date: June 14, 2008 04:40AM
Yeah the trolls have gotten much more savy to your rules over the years. You took a couple of times convincing the last time he disappeared aswell. Zelig initially was arduously arguing that brainwashing did not exist remember. A month or two after you banned him for this and he came back claiming that he had just found this forum and brainwashing was now a true phenomena.
When you banned him the second time there were at least four complaints about him. Firstly was his lack of posting actual information and his criticisms of Cara. He also was posting false information and his claims that the cult was not at all that bad were frequent despite the conflicting messages he sent.
This time he came back posting documents about the cult, responding with the very serious "I am posting information about the cult and these are proof that they are a dangerous cult, period." His criticisms of Cara have dramatically decreased so that is a positive right. So that's three out of four complaints he has improved on.
The issue is that he is still posting the same misinformation about the cult. Just like the Zelig and the Initiate incarnation prior to this he has used information to set himself up as a type of authority on this thread. He is the only one who has spoken with such confidence in his own opinion. Googling as his side kick everytime. His time frame in the cult matches including his involvement in IGG and unique knowledge of the ponomauloa School.
Read the following post of Vera's that I joined to a post of Zeligs. Although the subject matter of the two are very obviously different note how well they seemlessly still match up. The tone, the use of grammar, the accentuation all matches perfectly:
"What follows are the first of some new found documents that prove much of what has been told on this and other forums about Chris Butler (CB) and his group. There are two types of documents; public, self-promotional materials and private memos to initiated disciples. The dates range from around 1977 to 1989. They will show the discrepancies between the incense-scented smoke screens and the reality of an abusive and dangerous cult leader.
I will be posting signed documents proving Senator Mike Gabbard’s (aka Krishna Katha das) involvement in this cult, a very revealing transcript about educating children in CB’s cult, a letter from Vaishnava dasi (VD) lamenting the poor treatment her husband was receiving, Independents for Godly Government (IGG) brochures, the original “Dear Fanatic” interview first printed in the Valley Isle newspaper (that CB secretly ran, using Rick Reed as his front man), memos about CB’s personal care (complaints), memos with CB chastising his followers. You will see the dichotomy between the projected holy man image and the greedy, petulant whiner who uses others for his own means. He defines a spirituality that only allows for his own worship and behaves like a Soprano in his day to day life.
The first artifact is the original newspaper printed after the death of ISKCON founder/ guru A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupad (ACB). CB wrote this self-promotion piece to justify his delusions of grandeur and to appoint himself as a “Prabhupad”, a “Jagad Guru” (guru of the world). Chris Butler had his followers distribute this all over Hawaii and California. It was typeset, laid out, photographed, and illustrated by the same followers who published The Valley Isle, The Garden Isle, all the Independents for Godly Government brochures, Down to Earth ads, Katyayani’s cookbooks, and many more print projects in the 1970’s and 1980’s. This was all done by free labor. The crews were housed and fed. Not much else. This was published prior to video productions and the infamous WAREHOUSE studios. It was also distributed before he married Wai Lana, aka Vaishnava dasi (VD). It was published after the IGG campaigns.
The following article, “Acharya- Appointed, Elected, or Self-Effulgent” was CB’s attempt to justify his self-appointment as “guru of the world”. This will be of interest to the followers of the Vaishnava religion who feel their philosophy was hijacked and exploited by CB. Cult researchers will get an all too familiar glimpse, yet unique manifestation of a dangerous cult. For former members, this will be both bitter and hilarious. The title itself is absurdly narcissistic. Acharya is another word for some sort of messiah. Clearly, CB fancied himself as self-effulgent, rather than the perilous reality, “Self-Indulgent”.
I am not a “cult apologist” as evidenced by all of my posts. Even the above quotes illustrate my pointing out some of the ‘red flags’ of a cult--- Siddhaswarupananda’s secrecy, estrangement from his family, and hypocrisy (having made everyone believe his father to be this yelling, heartless, materialist). I posted under another name so that I could continue to contribute to the forum. My critics and others have done the same.
Also, it is possible to have one’s opinions change and evolve when new information is presented. People change, places change. When I first took the “10 Signs” test, that is what I honestly assessed, based on my perceptions at the time. I actually felt good about the fact that it wasn’t as bad as some cults. It was enough to have escaped for the reasons I shared. I had not examined my experiences up to that time as much as I have in the last 12 months. At the time, (as ‘initiate’ on 5-17-06), I had yet to make the contacts and friendships to discuss freely with other exes that I currently have. I am not qualified to take the “10 Signs” test for the Cult of Butler 2007, as I have no direct experience of it. In light of what other’s are sharing or if I had different experiences, I would have scored differently.
Communicating with other exes opened up my understanding, even the with the ones who wish to continue to quarrel. I still stand by all my posts. The only exception is that I now know how easily it is to manipulate even intelligent and educated people. I understand that brainwashing and mind control is a lot more subtle than I initially believed. I now feel that we gentle people are more susceptible to our environment than I once believed. This is something that “initiate” did not completely comprehend. Note ‘zelig’s’ poll question, “Did you know you were in a cult when you were in a cult?” The majority said “No.”, including myself. I would not have thought to ask such a question prior to learning more on this website and elsewhere.
I can understand how people can misconstrue my posts and recently have tried to more carefully explain my points of view. I believe in accurate reporting without embellishment. I question everything. I also go through periods where I feel ambivalent about my past in the cult. I am not however, ambivalent about the harm done by the cult of Butler, Aish, Chabad, Hare Krishna, or any other! Anyone who follows my posts will get this. But you will see a pattern with me that seems contradictory, without understanding the qualifyers. With both the CB cult and Chabad; I don't see things in black and white. That is part of my personality. I try to look at the positive in life. I have a core belief system that sees an ultimately benevolent universe and everything is ultimately for the good. So readers can take that in mind when they read my posts. That said, it does not mean that I lay down passively when I see lies and injustice or throw out all of my critical thinking skills. On the contrary, focusing on the greater good makes one’s critical thinking skills sharper. One should question everything and look at issues from many sides. And one should use these tools in all aspects of one’s life.
My past experience with CB taught me some valuable lessons, but so have many other life experiences, both good and bad. That does not make me an apologist. I have learned that over time Siddhaswarupananda has become progressively more paranoid and obnoxious, but have known him to be a con man for a long time. Even in my most idealistic days I would not have eaten his toe nails! I offer opinions that differ from a few, but not all. That’s life. The free exchange of ideas is healthy. We do not all have to agree. I have not lobbied for censorship. I have not flamed anyone. I have been civil and focused on ideas and not people. I hope that I will continue to have the right to post and have a flame-free experience on this forum. As Rick said, “This is a huge thread with much information. Let's not ruin it with petty arguments and "flaming." Please be courteous and allow each other some space and understanding. Everyone does not need to agree on everything. Each person posting here has their own history with the group and personal situation. There may be some differences in individual experiences and perhaps specific interests. Please don't allow personality clashes ruin the dialog and exchange of ideas here.”
We copied the documents already and will be posting them on the website for all to see.