Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by:
Dassi
()
Date: June 27, 2008 09:10AM
Quote
just-googling
How many Haribolers does it take to change a light bulb?
Seven.
One to screw in the light bulb.
Four to try and suck out the poisons from the bulb.
Two to dig the graves for those who committed suicide for being condemned for not getting the correct light bulb.
LOL Googster!
Funny, but sadly true.
Thank you so much for the comic relief!
Cuz the Koolau photos gave me a bit of PTSD!
The dreamy colors and thoughts of what I once believed
contrasted with the dictatorial letters was quite a jolt!
Vera-
I too am a corboy fan. Did you see the post on Jung?
Here it is in case you missed it on the same thread.
I think it is appropriate here.
Quote
corboy
Carl Jung on the Hazards of Blowback
Carl G. Jung travelled in India and made some intriguing remarks about how its general spiritual approach affected him as one who had been formed by the culture and mythology of Northern Europe.
I think Jung's comments are worth our attention for he was examining belief systems in the 1950s that remained mostly segregated in India and had not yet reached the Western world in mass circulation as was to happen later on.
"The Indian's goal is not moral perfection but the condition nirdvandva.
(nirdvandva means liberation from oppposites, dualism, the ten thousand things C)
'He wishes to free himself from nature in keeping with this aim, he seeks in meditation the condition of imagelessness and emptiness.'
(Jung was referring to those practicing advaita, not the bhakti schools of Hinduism in which deities are visualized great detail C)
'I on the other hand wish to persist in the lively contemplation of nature and of the psychic images. I want to be freed neither from human beings nor from myself, nor from nature, for all these appear to me the greatest of miracles.
'Nature, the psyche, and life appear to me like divinity unfolded--what more could I wish for? To me the supreme meaning of Being can consist only in the fact that it is, not that it is, no longer.
'To me, there is no 'liberation' a tout prix. I cannot be liberated from anything I do not possess, have not done or experienced. Real liberation becomes possible for me only when I have done all that I was able to do, when I have completely devoted myself to a thing and participated in it to the utmost. When I withdraw from participation (and IMO this would include denial and dissociation from one's suffering C) I am virtually amputating part of my psyche...
And Dr. Jung warns of the hazards of amputating any part of one's psyche:
'Whenever we give up, leave behind, and forget too much, there is always the danger that things we have neglected will return with added force.'
Jung, Memories Dreams and Reflections, pp 276-277 vide his chapter on visiting India.
Finally, in this same section on India, Jung wrote:
'I studiously avoided all so-called "holy men". I did so because I had to make do with my own truth, not accept from others what I could not attain on my own. I would have felt it as a theft had I attempted to learn from the holy men and to accept their truth for myself."
It must be noted that Dr Jung speaks for himself--and that he took it seriously to learn all he could about science, classical scholarship, and medicine by taking the necessary courses and doing residencies.
But in facing ones own truth, he felt no external teacher could give what you cannot derive from within--hence his refusal to visit celebrated gurus.
It is up to each reader to decide, on his or her own, whether Jung's concerns speak to the reader's own condition or not. The crux of Jung's work is not to eradicate suffering but to face our suffering consciously, rather than splitting it off. Jungs experience was that if we do this, whatever we suppress and remove from conscious awareness will return in some other form.
As for the material in Memories, Dreams and Reflections, Jung consented to write this book only on condition that it not be published until after he had died.
This is quite different from those spiritual entrepreneurs who disclose intimate details about their lives as a way to seduce interest and anxiety from devotees.
Dr Carl Jung and corboy's post
Posted by:
Vera City
()
Date: June 30, 2008 12:42AM
Hi Dassi,
Thanks for corboy's take on Jung. I found it amazing how strong Jung’s critical thinking skills were at the time. While it is true that in America, popular culture had not embraced India’s gurus in the 1950’s, there had been a long interest in eastern philosophy after Swami Vivekenanda attended the World’s Colombian Exhibition in Chicago in 1893. (This was the predecessor to the World’s Fair or EXPO).
Indian philosophy also became popularized in the book Razor’s Edge, by Somerset Maugham, which was also made into a film in 1946. So it was not that the west was ignorant of the east. Of course the British had been an occupying force in India for decades.
ACBhakivedanta of Hare Krishna’s at the airport fame, TM, and the Beatles popularized gurus and mantras in the early 60’s. Chris Butler just took his cues from there.
And it is not that we have nothing to learn from other cultures or teachers, but we need to be discriminating in our selection and be wary of giving over our selves.
What impressed me about Carl Jung was his ability to think things through:
In Chris Butler’s Bhakti yoga philosophy the goal is to become detached from the world and to attach the mind and senses to the deities and guru through service and meditation. The world is seen as a place of misery, a prison in which to be freed. The only real happiness in this cult’s view is through pleasing the guru. Followers may put up alters to a pantheon of gods, but the real deal is getting on the guru’s good side.
I love Jung’s response :
Suppressed love returns as a coldness towards others and even misanthropy. Suppressed enjoyment returns as inappropriate humor and bitterness. Suppressed sexuality returns with twisted features such as unreasoned hatred of homosexuals, subjugation of women, or child sexual abuse. A suppressed natural awe and reverence of the beauty in the world returns as a flat affect and symptoms of depression. Suppressed critical thinking (called “mental speculation” cult code words for useless activity) returns as personality changes and the ability to engage in immoral, unethical, or even illegal activities for the guru.
The word “enjoyment” is also a cult code buzz word. You are not supposed to enjoy anything but service to the guru which is the same as serving g0d, because you cannot serve or know g0d directly. Enjoyment is seen as selfish and indulgent and yet any charity on the material level is discouraged. Charity is seen as bringing people into the group or chanting or preaching or passing out food blessed by your prayers. But to give a poor man a hand without any strings attached is considered maya, illusion, a bad thing.
Which may explain some of the troubles perpetuated by Chris Butler’s cult.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/30/2008 01:05AM by Vera City.
Thanks for corboy's take on Jung. I found it amazing how strong Jung’s critical thinking skills were at the time. While it is true that in America, popular culture had not embraced India’s gurus in the 1950’s, there had been a long interest in eastern philosophy after Swami Vivekenanda attended the World’s Colombian Exhibition in Chicago in 1893. (This was the predecessor to the World’s Fair or EXPO).
Indian philosophy also became popularized in the book Razor’s Edge, by Somerset Maugham, which was also made into a film in 1946. So it was not that the west was ignorant of the east. Of course the British had been an occupying force in India for decades.
ACBhakivedanta of Hare Krishna’s at the airport fame, TM, and the Beatles popularized gurus and mantras in the early 60’s. Chris Butler just took his cues from there.
And it is not that we have nothing to learn from other cultures or teachers, but we need to be discriminating in our selection and be wary of giving over our selves.
What impressed me about Carl Jung was his ability to think things through:
Quote
Carl Jung
"The Indian's goal is not moral perfection but the condition nirdvandva.
(… liberation from oppposites, dualism, C)
'He wishes to free himself from nature in keeping with this aim, he seeks in meditation the condition of imagelessness and emptiness.'
In Chris Butler’s Bhakti yoga philosophy the goal is to become detached from the world and to attach the mind and senses to the deities and guru through service and meditation. The world is seen as a place of misery, a prison in which to be freed. The only real happiness in this cult’s view is through pleasing the guru. Followers may put up alters to a pantheon of gods, but the real deal is getting on the guru’s good side.
I love Jung’s response :
Quote
Carl Jung
'I on the other hand wish to persist in the lively contemplation of nature and of the psychic images. I want to be freed neither from human beings nor from myself, nor from nature, for all these appear to me the greatest of miracles.
'Nature, the psyche, and life appear to me like divinity unfolded--what more could I wish for? To me the supreme meaning of Being can consist only in the fact that it is, not that it is, no longer.
'To me, there is no 'liberation' a tout prix. I cannot be liberated from anything I do not possess, have not done or experienced. Real liberation becomes possible for me only when I have done all that I was able to do, when I have completely devoted myself to a thing and participated in it to the utmost. When I withdraw from participation (and IMO this would include denial and dissociation from one's suffering C) I am virtually amputating part of my psyche...
And Dr. Jung warns of the hazards of amputating any part of one's psyche:
'Whenever we give up, leave behind, and forget too much, there is always the danger that things we have neglected will return with added force.'
Suppressed love returns as a coldness towards others and even misanthropy. Suppressed enjoyment returns as inappropriate humor and bitterness. Suppressed sexuality returns with twisted features such as unreasoned hatred of homosexuals, subjugation of women, or child sexual abuse. A suppressed natural awe and reverence of the beauty in the world returns as a flat affect and symptoms of depression. Suppressed critical thinking (called “mental speculation” cult code words for useless activity) returns as personality changes and the ability to engage in immoral, unethical, or even illegal activities for the guru.
The word “enjoyment” is also a cult code buzz word. You are not supposed to enjoy anything but service to the guru which is the same as serving g0d, because you cannot serve or know g0d directly. Enjoyment is seen as selfish and indulgent and yet any charity on the material level is discouraged. Charity is seen as bringing people into the group or chanting or preaching or passing out food blessed by your prayers. But to give a poor man a hand without any strings attached is considered maya, illusion, a bad thing.
Quote
corboy
Finally, in this same section on India, Jung wrote:
'I studiously avoided all so-called "holy men". I did so because I had to make do with my own truth, not accept from others what I could not attain on my own. I would have felt it as a theft had I attempted to learn from the holy men and to accept their truth for myself."
It must be noted that Dr Jung speaks for himself--and that he took it seriously to learn all he could about science, classical scholarship, and medicine by taking the necessary courses and doing residencies.
But in facing ones own truth, he felt no external teacher could give what you cannot derive from within--hence his refusal to visit celebrated gurus.
It is up to each reader to decide, on his or her own, whether Jung's concerns speak to the reader's own condition or not. The crux of Jung's work is not to eradicate suffering but to face our suffering consciously, rather than splitting it off. Jungs experience was that if we do this, whatever we suppress and remove from conscious awareness will return in some other form.
Which may explain some of the troubles perpetuated by Chris Butler’s cult.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/30/2008 01:05AM by Vera City.
Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by:
zeuszor
()
Date: June 30, 2008 12:48AM
Here I have a copy of a booklet entitled "Jesus and Krsna: The Relationship," published in 1975 by CB, when he was known as Siddha Swarup Ananda Goswami. Would it be helpful if I scanned and posted it?
Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by:
Vera City
()
Date: June 30, 2008 01:09AM
Quote
zeuszor
Here I have a copy of a booklet entitled "Jesus and Krsna: The Relationship," published in 1975 by CB, when he was known as Siddha Swarup Ananda Goswami. Would it be helpful if I scanned and posted it?
IMO - Yes, that would be a great addition to the documents!
I've enjoyed your visual archive in the jesus christians cult. Great resources!
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/30/2008 01:11AM by Vera City.
Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by:
zeuszor
()
Date: June 30, 2008 01:36AM
I am on it. Will produce shortly.
On the subject of my work against David McKay-thank you. Hearing positive feedback on that means more to me than you know.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/30/2008 01:42AM by zeuszor.
On the subject of my work against David McKay-thank you. Hearing positive feedback on that means more to me than you know.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/30/2008 01:42AM by zeuszor.
Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by:
Vera City
()
Date: June 30, 2008 01:51AM
Zeuzor,
I think a few of the group came to Chris Butler's farm on Maui once. There was free food for them, but no use converting one's minds owed to another nut bag!
They also dumpster dived at the heath food store owned by Chris's followers in town. They walked around in robes and bedrolls --- they were more glazed over than a Dunken Doughnut! Do you know if any in DM's Jesus Christians came over to Maui?
PS - It was your visual archive that inspired me to post these documents here in spite of the some of the flak I've caught for it. Thanks.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/30/2008 01:56AM by Vera City.
I think a few of the group came to Chris Butler's farm on Maui once. There was free food for them, but no use converting one's minds owed to another nut bag!
They also dumpster dived at the heath food store owned by Chris's followers in town. They walked around in robes and bedrolls --- they were more glazed over than a Dunken Doughnut! Do you know if any in DM's Jesus Christians came over to Maui?
PS - It was your visual archive that inspired me to post these documents here in spite of the some of the flak I've caught for it. Thanks.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/30/2008 01:56AM by Vera City.
Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by:
zeuszor
()
Date: June 30, 2008 03:28AM
Thanks again for the positive feedback. It makes me feel good to know that my efforts have not been a waste of time, and that I have contributed something to the RR forum. Positive feedback and kind words like yours today keep me motivated.
No, I have never heard of the JCs traveling to Hawaii. In the robes and with bedrolls, this sounds more like the Jim Roberts group to me. They have recruited in Hawaii relatively recently.
[www.culteducation.com]
On the topic of the scans: I'll do it when I can. My internet connection is very slow and thought we can do text, images and video seem to be too much right now and I cannot actually post the scans. My connection is too slow to upload to Photobucket first. This always happens when it rains here, the internet at my house slows down. But be assured that I'll do it when I can. I'd love to now though...
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/30/2008 03:31AM by zeuszor.
No, I have never heard of the JCs traveling to Hawaii. In the robes and with bedrolls, this sounds more like the Jim Roberts group to me. They have recruited in Hawaii relatively recently.
[www.culteducation.com]
On the topic of the scans: I'll do it when I can. My internet connection is very slow and thought we can do text, images and video seem to be too much right now and I cannot actually post the scans. My connection is too slow to upload to Photobucket first. This always happens when it rains here, the internet at my house slows down. But be assured that I'll do it when I can. I'd love to now though...
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/30/2008 03:31AM by zeuszor.
Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by:
SoI Kills
()
Date: June 30, 2008 05:13AM
Vera: "It was your visual archive that inspired me to post these documents here in spite of the some of the flak I've caught for it."
You haven't once received flak for posting these documents. This is just more of your rhetorical bs.
The use of the words "giving over our selves" is again a subtle hint at your "willing participants" concept. You can't even be truthful about your own beliefs.
No person would "decide" to join SoI if they were aware of the facts beforehand. You, of course, are well aware of this. People who join SoI and other cults don't have full access to their teachings for such critical analysis.
SoI books don't offer a factual represention the Science of Identity Foundation, rather Butler's material is compilation of lies designed to convince a person they are not a cult and that their beliefs and intentions are pure. No one is aware that Chris Butler has had 40 years experience in brainwashing people.
Now that there is a website available, recruits, or families of recruits, can search for more information and decide not become unwilling victims of this cult.
Vera: "And it is not that we have nothing to learn from other cultures or teachers, but we need to be discriminating in our selection and be wary of giving over our selves."
Actually Jung thought that Yoga was a dangerous practice that westerners should not engage in.
"One often hears and reads about the dangers of Yoga, particularly of the ill-reputed Kundalini Yoga. The deliberately induced psychotic state, which in certain unstable individuals might easily lead to a real psychosis, is a danger that needs to be taken very seriously indeed. These things really are dangerous and ought not to be meddled with in our typically Western way. It is a meddling with Fate, which strikes at the very roots of human existence and can let loose a flood of sufferings of which no sane person ever dreamed. These sufferings correspond to the hellish torments of the chönyid state..." C. G. Jung, Introduction to The Tibetan book of the Dead *
You haven't once received flak for posting these documents. This is just more of your rhetorical bs.
The use of the words "giving over our selves" is again a subtle hint at your "willing participants" concept. You can't even be truthful about your own beliefs.
No person would "decide" to join SoI if they were aware of the facts beforehand. You, of course, are well aware of this. People who join SoI and other cults don't have full access to their teachings for such critical analysis.
SoI books don't offer a factual represention the Science of Identity Foundation, rather Butler's material is compilation of lies designed to convince a person they are not a cult and that their beliefs and intentions are pure. No one is aware that Chris Butler has had 40 years experience in brainwashing people.
Now that there is a website available, recruits, or families of recruits, can search for more information and decide not become unwilling victims of this cult.
Vera: "And it is not that we have nothing to learn from other cultures or teachers, but we need to be discriminating in our selection and be wary of giving over our selves."
Actually Jung thought that Yoga was a dangerous practice that westerners should not engage in.
"One often hears and reads about the dangers of Yoga, particularly of the ill-reputed Kundalini Yoga. The deliberately induced psychotic state, which in certain unstable individuals might easily lead to a real psychosis, is a danger that needs to be taken very seriously indeed. These things really are dangerous and ought not to be meddled with in our typically Western way. It is a meddling with Fate, which strikes at the very roots of human existence and can let loose a flood of sufferings of which no sane person ever dreamed. These sufferings correspond to the hellish torments of the chönyid state..." C. G. Jung, Introduction to The Tibetan book of the Dead *
Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by:
Vera City
()
Date: June 30, 2008 05:51AM
Quote
zeuszor
No, I have never heard of the JCs traveling to Hawaii. In the robes and with bedrolls, this sounds more like the Jim Roberts group to me. They have recruited in Hawaii relatively recently.
[www.culteducation.com]
Thanks for this link zeuzor. I am certain you are correct. The group that passed through Maui traveled by foot and dressed in robes and sandals. They were celibate and had that in common with the boys on Jagad Guru Chris Butler's farm on Maui. They were garbage eaters but were not vegetarians. That struck the Jagad Guru followers as really disgusting. This group was definitely from the mainland, not Hawaii. There were one or two women who looked down and would not speak - the rest of the group consisted of four or five men. There was one guy who did a lot of quoting of scriptures. I think the clash of cults only lasted a day or two with the boys feeding them and maybe arguing a few philosophical points. Their whole thing was to live an ascetic life and preach. They slept outside and ate when "God provided"(a nice dumpster).
The singular bit of irony is both groups were looking at each other through the same mirror, "We're not a cult, but those guys sure are!"
Like two tuning forks tuned to the same note, no one could impact the other.
"The video about parents looking for their children in the group is just heartbreaking. It looks like they all ride bicycles now and live in group homes. the Bretheren What also amazed me was the rapidity in which they were able to recruit people and instantly cut deep ties to family members...
Jagad Guru Chris Butler is particularly clever in covering his tracks and his political lackeys have been in plain sight for years. There is next to nothing about him in the mainstream media.
looking forward to your scans as you can :)
Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by:
zeuszor
()
Date: June 30, 2008 08:01AM
I'll work on it.
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