To all the SOI spies....

Quote from Rama's dad which I know to be reiterated widely (has their been an email from Siddha on this I wonder?)

[b:f57f65e86e]The way that you have chosen to publicly criticize us for our choice is indefensible.

What you are saying is really completely lacking any basic self-respect for anyone to choose the way they want to live their life. [/b:f57f65e86e]

As oppossed to condemning ISKCON, Gaudiya Vaishnavism, Christians, women who want to be equal members of society, women who have abortions (Which I personally do not agree with, but hey I am not actively trying to impose that on them either) homosexuals or fags as you so respectfully and compassionately call them, people who want to send their kids to school, let them play or have imagination and give them healthcare when needed, or even allowing other devotees to choose who they want to have relationships with and those with mental illness to take their prescribed medication without standing over them with threats of recrimination if they do.

Ever think that people who take up free meditation classes are actually there because as advertised they are interested in stress relief and relaxation and not being recruited into some religion which does not even have the honesty or integrity or basic self respect to call itself a religion? You don't think people have the right to know what they are getting into.

Don't forget if you want to practice what you preach about respecting other people's rights to live as they choose don't vote for the political candidates from SOI or be the next one to run for office so you can take the teaching of evolution out of schools and set women's and gay human rights back to 1924.

As for comments about talking to and taking advice from people you have never met what about taking orders on how to live your life from a guru that many followers are never likely to even see in person or have any personal communication with? If I record what I think onto a CD in a condescending America accent and give it some long winded title with the words Absolute Truth appearing somewhere and have a ten minute chant at the end maybe that would fit better with your pavlov's dog approach to spiritual life.

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TheTruthAsItIs
This one reminds me of a typical SOI member:

[www.arcadenerds.com]

Back in the 60s and 70s .... I was at Woodstock man ... tripping me out man ... thinking of getting a job man ....

:lol: :lol: :lol: On a lighter note, yes I think I know someone like this - and they are probably STILL living in their van, as they have donated all their money to their spiritual master! :cry:

thanks for this link - that guy has done quite a few pranks like this and he is hilarious - and he was the typical type of person who did join SOI. :)

:arrow: "YOHO HEAVE-HO" chanted the slaves as they laboriously struggled to build the massive pyramid for their cruel spiritual master...

:D

JustGoogling and Rama, I love you man, reading your posts:

some days they make me laugh and some days they make me cry, heck, pure hearts are hard to come by, the SOI have lost some of their best and brightest ...

I would be interested to hear what the moderator's response and qualified independent opinion drawing on years experience etc is on family pressure in Rama's case. There are two kinds of pressure: threatening and emotional, the more subtle form is emotional.

I feel genuine love and sincerity (from Rama's parents and him to them), although their belief system is deluded, but how do you deal with this.

I know for a fact that this organization encourages break ups between members and their families who are not part of the group. The members often speak of their family who are non-believers with a certain disdain, and distance themselves from them, particularly to preserve their spiritual life and not be "contaminated". I dont see this in Rama's case and am quite surprised as it is not the norm.

I would like to know as I was in a very similar position. It got so bad, it is a family door that shut and one I am unable to open to this day. It is almost easier to deal with family members who are hateful to you, family members who press their beliefs on you with love, make it like sticking a knife through your heart and twisting it slowly.

Yeeh hah, cultreporter, smack that pony! Thoughtful response!

I just wanted to share this song which has seemed like somewhat of an anthem as of late...

From the brilliant Greg Graffin and the raddest band with the best name,

BAD RELIGION.


"SOCIAL SUICIDE"


Right now
Well it's finally time to face my fears
Gonna get the hell out of here
And create a fresher atmosphere
But the consequence is clear

There's a furnace set on high
And a yearning undefined
But it's time to turn the tide
It's social suicide

Like you
Perserverence is a useless tool
Just a patron on a ship of fools
Feigning interest in the cast and crew
Why you've broken every single rule

There's a furnace set on high
And a yearning undefined
But it's time to turn the tide
It's social suicide

Shadows entertain the unwashed masses
Scholars explain their numb reactions
I don't even know if I can ever find truth
but I'm sure it won't come from following you

There's a furnace set on high
And a yearning undefined
But it's time to turn the tide
It's social suicide

END.

I really like the line "Like you,
Perserverence is a useless tool."

In regards to what my Dad said about tolerance... f**k tolerance. Tolerance implies not messing with or offending anyone or thing despite harboring deep opposition or objection to it.

Tolerance has let these religious/cultic organisations (big and small) run rampant and dominate to the extent that they have.

I am in no way involving myself in wether or not people actually stay in the organisation. I am just talking. I am saying the things that burn inside me. I am shining the light on what you all so desperately want to keep tucked away, safe and free from criticism.

I swear, Siddha's inability to withstand any scrutiny or criticism is the ONLY reason there needs to be any of the secrecy and security surrounding them.

The only real purpose of my Dad's e-mail was to stop me from talking here. That is all that matters, not what I think, that has been constantly edited out, played down and diminished by my parents since before I was even born, according to where it stands in relation to their MOST important possesion, their Butler brand belief system.

Looks a lot more like YOU(my dad and his guru) are desperate, freaked out and threatened.


Does my father really display any tolerance in his letter?

Me sharing my past for my own damn reasons is not tolerable.

Me voicing my views on what is a HUGE part of me is not tolerable.

I call on you, Dad, or anybody else reading this, don't hold your feelings back on my account, let me know... I think it is much more healthy that way.
Let your voice out, articulate your feelings, cut me down to size.
These things are in no way a threat to me or anybody that is accepting of who they are... it can only serve to clear the channels of communication and enable us to all be that much more real.

Eddie would go.

Speak up

Say what nobody has yet

Face what frightens you

Think about it

Bring your mind, your voice, your intellect and your intuition into alignment.

Focus them into a beam that will burn a hole in this world.

Live with conviction

Stand up and become your true self

BAD RELIGION

"Live Again - The Fall Of Man"

The road is narrow, the horizon wide
And to say what’s waiting on the other side
Is so rewarding and the ultimate prize
But what good is something if you can’t have it until you die?

Desperate, tenacious, clinging like a grain of sand
Watching its foundation wash away (wash away)
Drunk with the assertions they know they can’t defend
Confident that they might…live again

Live again, live again
Would you give it all up to live again?
Live again, live again
Would you give it all up to live again?

Temptation? Revelation? You decide
Torture shows its colors often in disguise
Progress and purpose help us realize
We pass along a brighter faith even though it must be blind

Live again, live again
Would you give it all up to live again?
Live again, live again
Would you give it all up to live again?

Desperate, tenacious, clinging like a grain of sand
Watching its foundation wash away (wash away)
Drunk with the assertions they know they can’t defend
Confident that they might…live again

(Let’s go!)

Live again, live again
Would you give it all up to live again?
Live again, live again
Would you give it all up to live again?

:?: Curiousity

Is it possible for a religion that claims to be a non-religious and non-sectarian organisation to hide behind the rights of religious groups to vilify homosexuals? In Australia there are laws against vilification and by distributing freely or selling or even broadcasting anti-gay sentiments then one can find themselves in serious trouble with the law.

Is it against advertising standards to promote a meditation school as being a meditation school when it is infact aligned with a religion and it's actual primary purpose is furthering a specific doctrine. Immoral and deceptive certainly - but potentially illegal?

Is it an infringement of other people's human rights to trick them into the religious practices of Krishna Consciousness by selling them prashadam as if it is normal food? I can recall Buddhists suing McDonalds and winning over cooking their fries in animal fat because this unwittingly interferes with their karma (although one would suspect that there would be some bad karma attatched with giving money to a business whose primary focus was facilitating the eating of cows) Do people of other religions who are just looking for a snack really want to be engaging in the religion of Krishna Consciousness?

So many questions... anyone know a good cult lawyer?

cultreporter,
excellent posts. Send a private message to rrmoderator for lawyer references and the law.

[b:b27209ec62]An Open Letter to Rama and His Parents[/b:b27209ec62][/size:b27209ec62]

Okay, I am admitting ahead of time that this post is presumptuous, but I stand by it.

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Rama Das (slave name)
I do not hate my parents.

This is very clear.

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Rama Das (slave name)
I don't care about your feelings when they are [b:b27209ec62]blind defense mechanisms [/b:b27209ec62][/size:b27209ec62]
for what I am fundamentaly opposed to.

Good phrase; [u:b27209ec62][i:b27209ec62]blind defense mechanisms[/i:b27209ec62][/u:b27209ec62].

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I am glad it is finally in your face.
[i:b27209ec62][b:b27209ec62]It is only through your constant shutting out of anything other than your static beliefs that you have created this situation[/b:b27209ec62][/i:b27209ec62].
[i:b27209ec62][b:b27209ec62]Your static beliefs that you have so furiously clung to were always the largest authority over and influence on my life, always the reference point for right and wrong, always the reference point for direction in life[/b:b27209ec62][/i:b27209ec62].

Very well put. You give two good examples of this as follows:

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When hanging out with you guys on Oahu, we were talking about mangos
and healthy eating, something I greatly appreciate connecting with you guys about, being that it is not a threat like me discussing any spiritual ideas outside of your own.
I remember that this particular conversation ended in "at least food is not the goal of life."
What the faaaark am I supposed to do with that?
I never said it was, and it just is what it is.

This is such a typical example of how it is to relate to someone in a cult. They are compelled to filter everything, even an innocent conversation about mangoes, through the "blind defense mechanisms". It is impossible to just have a normal verbal exchange. They have to justify and fold every word and action into the "party line" and make their time with you worth while. Unconsciously they are saying to you, "YOU ARE WRONG. You are the error. You are not acceptable as you are." Instead of just being with their son in a loving exchange, they had to turn it back to the cult doctrines. No wonder you are so angry, Rama. Another example:

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On this same trip, my friend and I went to see this speaker on Maui named Wayne Dyer... I asked my Mum if she might want to go, because I thought (naively) that she could relate to what he says, very much distilling the core of religious and other traditions by speaking of connection with your source and alignment of your intention with the qualities of those of your source.

I find a lot of what he says very beautifull and I once saw it as a possible common ground to relate to her or you about spirituality.

I showed you his book and shared a little of some of his writing.

Your reaction was incredibly shut down and you claimed it was "bloody dangerous"

[b:b27209ec62]To Rama's parents:[/b:b27209ec62]
Wayne Dyer is now declared "bloody dangerous". He's such a good man. Another slap in Rama's face. So you are not having an open and intelligent discussion with your son. If your philosophy was so strong and clean and clear, it would be easy to find common ground; or at least respectfully make your points as to why you disagree. You instead blew off your son. It was like telling him to his face that HE was "bloody dangerous" because he showed an interest in [i:b27209ec62][b:b27209ec62]teachings other than Siddha's[/b:b27209ec62][/i:b27209ec62]. You want Rama to respect you, but you have no respect for him.. . .
As far as being publicly humiliated. You have not been. No one has the slightest idea of who you are. Other devotees may know, but they shouldn't be on this forum in the first place! And perhaps this is the only place that Rama feels free enough to speak the truth! Your philosophy takes up all the space in your hearts and prevents you from seeing your son or hearing his words. This is the true hard heartedness.
No, none of us can possibly love your son as you do, but others can appreciate him as you can not. You have a remarkable son and have raised him better than most krishna kids. (And I have known many of them). You have stayed together as husband and wife for one thing.

I suppose I understand why you are so threatened by Wayne Dyer. He literally pulled me out of the depths. His lectures on Emerson and the transcendentalists, long before his beautiful "Power of Intention" PBS series and book helped free me from your cult. And it is a cult in the truest sense of the word. Dyer's care and love for humanity and understanding of life would indeed be bloody dangerous to your narrow world view, which I have discussed extensively on this forum. Actually it is Siddha that sucks all the air out of the room so that you black out and no longer see your son or the world as it really is. His followers live in fear of not getting liberated or of commiting an offense. You blindly cry out, "bloody dangerous." Your cult is what is really bloody dangerous to the spirit.

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you tell us you love us and with the next you try and destroy us.

How is it even remotely possible to destroy you, an imperishable spirit soul?

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I did not see anywhere in your messages that you told the world “oh yeah but I still take my pathetic parents money on a regular basis”

Your choice to give or not give. It reflects more on you than on Rama. You are better and wealthier parents than most devotees, especially if you are giving your prescribed tithes to Siddha.

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We are all born with freedom freewill and independence.
The door is always open for any of us to go do whatever we want in this world.
The rest of your family have made a choice and you have made yours.
The way that you have chosen to publicly criticize us for our choice is indefensible.

Yes, and you have raised a son with a good sense of self and a mind of his own. This is to your credit. What would your pre-Siddha self think of your son? I think you would really like him. My personal ethics include respecting my parents and not humiliating them publicly in spite of differences. Rama is expressing his experiences and objections to a life that he feels was harmful not only to himself, but his whole family. He greives for you guys. He wants only loving connection, but your philosophy always gets in the way.

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What you are saying is really completely lacking any basic self-respect for anyone to choose the way they want to live their life.

He has more self respect and courage than most.

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I have never gone out of my way to criticize you for your choice in life not to follow the path of Bhakti.

You didn't need to go out of your way. You may not criticise him directly, but daily he feels your intolerance and disdain.

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You should look at your life and look into your heart and see what is wrong because for somebody to attack so viciously those so close is not right.
Your mother and I always gave you the best possible things we could in life according to our circumstances and you go banging on like we dam well abused you.

I understand your anger. It's clear you were really good devotee parents. I also think that Rama should attack the philosophy and not his parents, but there seems to be a family trait of hard headedness on both sides! :lol:

The point is that the WEDGE is your involvement in a cult. I know you do not see it like that, but Rama has a right to bang on about his experiences and views about his life on any forum he chooses. He is his own man.

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You had loving parents and grand parents around you at all times.

This is unusual for most devotee kids! Non-devotee grandparents is truly a blessing!

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We know many people all of us that do not chant and if they read this stuff you are saying about us they would be mortified.

Oh yeah, “Some of my best friends are karmis too.” This statement is so bigoted. Are you more concerned about your reputation than your son? This is the narcissism of Siddha talking!

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I raised both our boys with the same basic principal, love them and let them go, let them do what they love.
We gave you so much freedom as a kid.

This was a good thing and it shows in your son.

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You have isolated a part of your life and found a forum to turn it into something ugly.

He is not alone in finding many things about your cult ugly. You brought him up in it. He did [i:b27209ec62][b:b27209ec62]not[/b:b27209ec62][/i:b27209ec62] have a choice. We are here to help others avoid our mistakes in joining Siddha’s group. We find his philosophy harmful to life and discuss it freely on this forum. We also joke around. Okay, so you don’t agree. Lighten up on your son.
But your philosophy does not allow you to live and let live, or to question and debate. You live with a terrible contradiction; the philosophy you have adopted and the freedom you cherish in your hearts. krishna was not a side thing. It was an unwanted sibling. It has become the main thing.

Your son is like the little boy in the story “The Emperor’s New Clothes” who yells out at all of the adults that the Emperor is naked. It’s hard for you to hear that your guru is a bare fool. That would make you feel like your whole life was based on a lie and you have been conned. Pretty painful to have your world torn apart.

Your son Rama is the best friend you will ever have.