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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Culthusiast ()
Date: October 31, 2024 05:21AM

just-googling Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The drama intensifies. What's next... Tulsi
> serving hamburgers at Macdonald's in order to get
> more votes?

Well. Chris Butler used to say that his spiritual brothers in God are "clumps of dogstool". Then the enemy became the Gaudiya Math. Now the gurus of the Gaudiya Math are invited to give lectures.

Magic? The magic of money. The magic of money made SIF a member of the WVA. The magic of money opened the hearts of those who were previously clumps of dogstool. And Tusi Gabbard took 3 donations from Planned Parenthood. But it is a slaughterhouse of unborn children. They point it out with their fingers to the members of ISKCON or the disciples of A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami. Magic? Yes, it is magic. The magic of power and belonging to the same religion makes one forget or ignore the breaking of the foundations...

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: RUN_FOREST_RUN ()
Date: October 31, 2024 08:43AM

Culthusiast,

One of the things that I find very humorous about the history of spreading the so-called Krishna Consciousness movement to the West is that bhaktisiddhanta actually avoided traveling, even sometimes by car or train let alone taking a flight because of superstition surrounding so-called jyotish, or Vedic astrology. Oftentimes even bhaktivednata would literally avoid getting into a car or cancel flights to other countries just because of some so-called discrepancy in the astrological calculations. This is the kind of level of naivety we're dealing with.

Nevermind the silliness of ekadashi, which we have brought up here ad nauseam many times. Well, I have anyway. I just can't get enough of the funny stories and myths associated with the ritual. I mean, I don't make this shit up. Some of the stories are so naive and silly and it's literally the entire reasoning behind why a whole group of people are fasting from grains for one day, or avoiding drinking water and all sorts of Random bullshit.

Even as I posted the other day the so-called king of jagannath Puri is having some big issue with iskcon surrounding the belated celebration of the Ratha Festival. As if God is sitting around and worrying about or getting upset about this type of shit. OMG. LOL. And of course, WTF!

RUN

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Culthusiast ()
Date: October 31, 2024 07:18PM

RUN_FOREST_RUN Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Culthusiast,
>
> One of the things that I find very humorous about
> the history of spreading the so-called Krishna
> Consciousness movement to the West is that
> bhaktisiddhanta actually avoided traveling, even
> sometimes by car or train let alone taking a
> flight because of superstition surrounding
> so-called jyotish, or Vedic astrology. Oftentimes
> even bhaktivednata would literally avoid getting
> into a car or cancel flights to other countries
> just because of some so-called discrepancy in the
> astrological calculations. This is the kind of
> level of naivety we're dealing with.
> RUN

The statistics of air accidents were not and are not terrible. In principle, it is statistically safer to travel by plane than by car. Only the mortality rate in the event of an accident is much higher. Rarely anyone survives a fall from 10,000 meters.

As a transcendentalist he should acknowledge the influence of Krishna's transcendence and protection at least on his mood. On the other hand, the pragmatics of climbing a tree in the case of a lion.

The calculations related to the date of the Kurukshetra war are interesting. Various proposals:

Quote

Popular tradition and archaeoastronomy
Popular tradition holds that the war marks the transition to Kali Yuga and dates it to 3102 BCE. A number of other proposals have been put forward:

Vedveer Arya gives a date of 3162 BCE, by distinguishing between the Saka and Sakanta eras and applying correction of 60 years to the date given in popular tradition and based on Aihole inscription.[31]
B. N. Achar used planetarium software to argue that the Mahabharata War took place in 3067 BCE.[32]
Dieter Koch dates the war to 1198 BCE using planetarium software on the basis super-conjunctions mentioned in the text.[33]

Kesheo Lakshman Daftari, one of the members of the Calendar Reform Committee which prepared the Indian national calendar, holds that the war took place in 1197 BCE.[34]
V. S. Dubey claims that the war happened near 950 BCE.[35]

Associations with archaeological cultures
Indian archeologist B. B. Lal used the same approach with a more conservative assumption of the average reign to estimate a date of 836 BCE and correlated it with archaeological evidence from Painted Grey Ware (PGW) sites, the association being strong between PGW artifacts and places mentioned in the epic.[36] John Keay confirmed it and also dated the battle to have taken place in 950 BCE.[37]

According to Parpola, the war may have taken place during the later phase of the Painted Grey Ware culture, c. 750-350 BCE.[30] He noted that the Pandava heroes are not being mentioned in the Vedic literature from before the Grhyasutras.[30] Parpola suggests that the Pandavas were Iranic migrants, who came to South Asia around 800 BCE.[38]

Excavations in Sinauli unearthed burials with the remains of carts[a] belonging to the Ochre Coloured Pottery culture (OCP).[39] Several authors proposed to relate the Rig Vedic culture and the war to the OCP, instead of the PGW.[40][41] While the carts are dated to 1800–1500 BCE (+-150),[42] Gupta and Mani state that "in the present state of archaeological evidence OCP seems to be a stronger contender for the Mahabharata association", dating the war to the 4th millennium BCE.[43] Parpola sees the finds as ox-pulled carts, indicating support for his proposal for a first wave of Indo-Aryan migrations into the Indian subcontinent at the beginning of the 2nd millennium BCE, prior to the migration of the Rig Vedic people.[39][note 3]

[en.wikipedia.org]

The differences are enormous. The beginnings of the Indus Valley civilization, the end of that civilization, the migration of the Aryans, etc.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: RUN_FOREST_RUN ()
Date: October 31, 2024 10:13PM

The gita as it is today is at best a 1500 year old text. 80% of it says nothing new and is a regurgitation of other purana in some cases nearly verbatim.

The kuruksetra war never ever happened. It's a myth. Zero evidence of it. The closest thing to it was a supposed land dispute between kings but no names or records match to it.

Krishna was not a historical person. It's an amalgamation deity.

Radha is a medieval era poetic invention.

Chaitanya was a religious fanatic with epilepsy. Left zero doctrine record.

Goswamis tried to formalize his cult through bias intellectuality and because it was already falling apart and being challenged before he died.

No true biography of chaitanya exists.

No scriptures except one fringe vaishnav later edition interpolated purana mentions the hare rama mantra. Even chaitanya charitamrita does not mention it in full.

No record of mention of brahma samhita exists in other post vedic works. It was a contemporary gaudiya text created to bolster thier claims. Like all thier scriptures it popped up out of nowhere.

Bhagavatam is a recent scripture with final composition and interpolation as recent as 800 to 1500 years max. It was compiled by a group of brahmins looking to revitalize and formalize a sprawling religious landscape. Just like Christianity evolved, etc.

Brahmin diksha was invented by bhaktisiddhanta. As was the so called discovery of "yoga pitha" and half the claims him and his dad made were based on dreams and visions only they had.

Modern hare krishna cults are nothing like what chaitanya started. Completely unrelated. Just as nothing in bhagavatam is "vedic".

The current hare krishna cult is about 50 to 500 years old.Period.

Now on to some culty news:

Happy dwali. Apparently it's a gaudiya holiday now. Tulsi is wishing everyone happy dwali today, cuz she's um, er, uh, hindu... randomly. Never once called ourselves Hindus growing up. Butler and bhaktivednata bluntly told thier followers they were not hindu. Now they all hindu.

My favorite story as to why dwali is celebrated:

"Krishna, determined to restore peace, fought a fierce battle against Narakasura, ultimately defeating him. After his victory, Krishna is said to have bathed in the blood of the demon and emerged triumphant. To mark this significant occasion, people celebrate Naraka Chaturdashi, the day before Diwali, with rituals and festivities, celebrating the triumph of light and joy..."

Krishna loves bathing in blood of his enemy. I don't make this shit up. Sounds more like a Halloween story.

Here's more if you're inclined to read about the lords pastimes:

https://artsandculture.google.com/story/GQWxp_hpPG_4Pg?origin=serp_auto

While we're at it, jai jamuna:
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/health/other/ap-photos-river-and-air-pollution-in-indias-capital-pose-a-severe-health-threat-to-residents/ar-AA1t7jpI?origin=serp_auto

And "Meanwhile the International Society for Krishna Consciousness (ISKCON) has strong ties with the RSS and a recent history of anti-Muslim views among its leadership."

Read the rest here:

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/london-mayor-slammed-working-group-link-anti-muslim-ethnic-cleansing?origin=serp_auto

RUN

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: RUN_FOREST_RUN ()
Date: November 01, 2024 06:45AM

Dropping this here: [www.gurumag.com]

And this:

[www.nationalheraldindia.com]

This is where we are in 2024. This is happening today: Idiots argue over a fictional gods belated celebration...

And... [washingtonmonthly.com]

Meanwhile...

Every day, Butler wakes up, gets fed, clothed, massaged, and otherwise tended to while he berates and rambles to followers who are in his personal service out of no more a driving factor than fear and naivety.

Followers worldwide delude each other into thinking that some chanting and vegetable diet is the great "gift" that Butler gave them and that they are not their bodies and should spend their days working and giving money to Butler. How much does the guy need? Did his million-dollar air filtration system break down again? Or does he need organic tin foil wallpaper installed in his luxury ocean-front mansion?

Bhaktivedanta swami was a fanatical religious leader. He spent his days translating mythology books and giving long-winded purposes and lectures on otherwise self-explanatory myths. They are myths: Symbolism by ancient peoples who were trying to create social order, achieve happiness, establish morals/ethics and otherwise rewrite history to suit their specific religious ideals. If you ever read most Upanishads/puranas/Samhitas and original Vedas, they are endlessly redundant, contradictory, and arduous to make any sense of. By today's standards of books on religions, culture, philosophy and psychology they amount to relics of the past to reveal mostly how little man knew and how time sent telling stories was as much a part of human life as it is today with books, TV, movies, theatre, art etc. Even most of rasa theory has its fundamental origins in poetry and art.

"The rasa theory itself originates in Bharata Muni’s Natyashastra, a Sanskrit treatise on drama and aesthetics dated around the 2nd century BCE. Natyashastra outlines rasa as the emotional flavor or essence experienced by an audience in response to a work of art, primarily theater. Bharata identified eight original rasas, like shringara (love), karuna (compassion), and hasya (humor), which he saw as essential emotions evoked by dramatic performances."

Prior to getting a hare and coming to America, Bhantivednata was interested in making friends with Gandhi and hoping to give the world "Krishna consciousness." This cult, which was started by an epileptic "saint" who left zero commentaries on any scriptures and was otherwise simply known for exaggerated fanatical behavior, is otherwise 400 years old.

Just as quickly as Chaitanya's cult started upon his death, and arguably before his death, the cult started to fall apart. (But since Chaitanya left no actual doctrine, no one really knew what to do.)

Some 300 years later, Bhaktivinode and his son tried to "revamp" the cult and made up a bunch of ideology,, rules,, and dogma that they then attracted a few men to follow them and start the Gauduya Math. A cult that, even in their time, was not taken seriously and has very little to no actual effect on anything in India.

Fast forward, an LSD-melted-brain surfer dude in Hawaii is looking for a way to attract followers and piggyback on the new cult in town: The Hare Krishnas.

Airport scams, child abuse, and drug/money laundering years later, the hare Krishnas have come out the other end as a new 500-year-old cult that can barely go a day without some scandal, either within their walls or outside.

We have a Hare Krishna vying for political power by rubbing shoulders with one of the most crooked minds in political history: Tulsi Gabbard.

Chris Butler started his guru career as a deluded surfer, and if his disciples all left him today, he would amount to nothing more than where he began—literally.


His political Puppet, disciple Tulsi Gabbard, has about as much clout as her guru. She attracts the bottom-barrel cult mentality to whom she appeals. The support base she attracts are bigots and religiously fanatical conspiracy theorists, just like her Gurudev. The few intelligent folks she attracts know nothing about her, her guru, or the hare Krishna ideology.


The Hindu base she attracts are RSS/BJP Hindu nationalists. Well, that and Hare Krishnas. They are not Hindus interested in societal progress and real change for themselves or India, but simply rhetoric of religious ideology that has done fuck-all for the country they profess to love. That we live in 2024, and people believe in elephant-headed gods and blue-4-armed gods and mythology that predates Zeus and some pagan worship that was tossed away eons ago as useless and demented is an outstanding testament to the power of "mantras" to dissolve the brain (literally all they are good for). It's a testament to a scriptural dogma that labels questioning and calling out BS as "aparadha" and "offensive,"... so essentially no different than any other fear-based religious system, masquerading as "love" and "devotion."


Growing up in this cult, I cannot describe it as anything short of being a fear-based religious system. From the onset of the Cult's ideology, you are told that your spiritual master is not to be questioned. That if you offend the spiritual master in any way, you are, in essence, offending God and crippling your possibility for Spiritual progress, not just in this lifetime but for many lifetimes after that. And the entire scripture is full of fear-based stories. Very few stories in their scriptures are resolved with amicability and peacefulness rather than simply forceful dogma, abnegation, or downright killing and maiming to get your point across. And even in recent times Bhaktivedanta Swami also wished his cult to grow into a movement that allowed people to walk up to anybody who doesn't chant the Hare Krishna mahamantra and shoot them in a head. He thought that that was a funny thing. And he also taught that his words were the words for the next 10,000 years. His followers gobbled that up, and so, with enough emboldening. Because they are such literalists in their interpretation of these words, it's just a matter of time before they move forward with that type of dictator mentality.

The Gita and Bhagavatam that we were given as kids were full of pictures of "demoniac" planets and "hellish" punishment in yamaraj. We were constantly told to fear "maya", "Kali yuga" and anything outside the cult structures.

When we got fed up with all the fear and wanted to know more about the "love" part of the cult, i.e., Radha and Krishna, and the actual goal we all heard about, like Manjari Bhava, we were again told to be fearful of "knowing" more.

When we left Buller to follow or hear other gurus speak and read other scriptures, we were told we were offensive, we were told not to trust other krishna groups...

Now, fast forward again to a time where social media is king, devotees post endless AI-generated images of their Radha Krishna gods and other naive imagery and edited videos of chanting and dancing and young people doing "yoga" and singing hare Krishna happily to pop-tunes... But alas, on the same note, Reddit and many other places expose the dark underbelly of the cult, and its inability actually to solve any real social issues, and an inability to make people "happy" beyond the "promise" that if you keep chanting and keep believing you will one day be happy...

Meanwhile, people suspend living their own lives and trap their minds in an artificial framework of pretending they are "Hindus" or support their political puppet, Tusli Gabbard, or play dress-up with their Krishna statues and naively think they are making some sort of spiritual advancement...

And finally, another Hare Krishna scum bag:

https://www.business2community.com/statistics-pages/jay-shetty-controversy

"...The reason for his public aversion to Krishna isn’t clear, but news outlets suspected the cause to be the negative portrayal of the Hare Krishna movement a few decades ago. These have included drug dealing, sex trafficking, and more. Despite these claims subsiding with time, the rising guru likely wanted to distance himself from Krishna to protect his reputation."

RUN

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Culthusiast ()
Date: November 01, 2024 08:08PM

RUN_FOREST_RUN Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Every day, Butler wakes up, gets fed, clothed,
> massaged, and otherwise tended to while he berates
> and rambles to followers who are in his personal
> service out of no more a driving factor than fear
> and naivety.
>
> Followers worldwide delude each other into
> thinking that some chanting and vegetable diet is
> the great "gift" that Butler gave them and that
> they are not their bodies and should spend their
> days working and giving money to Butler. How much
> does the guy need? Did his million-dollar air
> filtration system break down again? Or does he
> need organic tin foil wallpaper installed in his
> luxury ocean-front mansion?

The only true cult of the married paramahamsa. The only good tree with bad fruit. An unecclesiastical jagad guru recognized by his own group of followers. A responsible parent of a broken family at his own request. Not greedy for the benefits of being a fucking pope or a fucking temple president. A gardener of flowery language for his asshole and fucking idiot students.Humbly accepting service from the spontaneously engaged readers of Kitchen Policies...

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Culthusiast ()
Date: November 02, 2024 09:33PM

RUN_FOREST_RUN Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The Hindu base she attracts are RSS/BJP Hindu
> nationalists. Well, that and Hare Krishnas. They
> are not Hindus interested in societal progress and
> real change for themselves or India, but simply
> rhetoric of religious ideology that has done
> fuck-all for the country they profess to love.
> That we live in 2024, and people believe in
> elephant-headed gods and blue-4-armed gods and
> mythology that predates Zeus and some pagan
> worship that was tossed away eons ago as useless
> and demented is an outstanding testament to the
> power of "mantras" to dissolve the brain
> (literally all they are good for). It's a
> testament to a scriptural dogma that labels
> questioning and calling out BS as "aparadha" and
> "offensive,"... so essentially no different than
> any other fear-based religious system,
> masquerading as "love" and "devotion."


In principle, one can praise the reduced samkhya model of geopolitical control elements, or factors of potential or areas of action on ideology/religion, military power, economic power and demography/manpower. This reduction is not perfect because it is internally coupled, dependent. Economic power also results from knowledge, military power also results from knowledge. And the economy is dependent on demography. Nevertheless, the model of Brahmins, Kshatriyas, Vaisyas and Sudras corresponding to it is some kind of attempt to reduce dependencies. Of course, space also comes into play here. Phenomena, in turn, are governed by mechanisms known from the pyramid of needs, which corresponds to the yogic division into chakras. These elements can be considered accurate. Very accurate. Of course, in human societies, an element of law appears - regulation. Civil, criminal, administrative law.

A classic example is a large land and sea. A small agricultural community has its own economy. It turns out that it is necessary to put up warning posts on beaches and this requires specialization. This affects the economy. Guards must be maintained. Food, clothing and someone has to make weapons. The mechanism is governed by a sense of security (in yoga, the muladhara chakra). A sense of security, space, influence on the economy - because guards do not work in the fields. There are proportions, parameters, etc.

In Poland, SIF taught the Vedic division as absolute. In practice, as one could learn from the sannyasis, it was not so orthodoxically observed. It was adapted to the circumstances. Today's times, on the other hand, as I wrote earlier - introduce a great variety of professions and it would be difficult to classify and divide everything. Reality itself forces a departure from the orthodox division. Interestingly, the Brahmins admitted that the varnaasrama division is not sanatana-dharma but naimittika-dharma. It may be subject to corrections.


In turn, from the point of view of psychological tendencies, one of the hypotheses is that the first king of Poland, Mieszko I, was a Scandinavian, a Varangian. So the more agricultural, hunting and gathering culture and mentality was tensed by the warlike tendencies of the Varangian, the Scandinavian. A similar mechanism was supposed to have occurred in Kievan Rus - the Rurikids. In general, the tendency to cooperate in a cold climate is more visible. Harsh conditions encourage cooperation. In turn, also to plunder, which was visible in the case of the Swedes and is historically confirmed.


Ideology and religion are an integral part of politics.

In the case of India it is really interesting. Because we have the Dravidians, the Iranians. The civilization of the Indus Valley was accompanied by the civilization of Egypt (bald-headed priests) and the civilization of Sumer (various deities). In addition, Zoroaster appeared out of nowhere... And then Alexander the Great, the Muslims, Guru Nanak appeared and the Sikhs at the junction of Hinduism and Islam and the fun continues.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/02/2024 09:35PM by Culthusiast.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: just-googling ()
Date: November 02, 2024 09:38PM

Ex member of Hare Krishna takes a logical perspective on the whole thing...

[www.youtube.com]

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: RUN_FOREST_RUN ()
Date: November 05, 2024 07:26AM

Sounds about right. I've been saying the same stuff as this guy and some for years.

People trapped in SIF or ISKCON or Gaudiya Math and similar offshoots of Hare Krishna groups are often afraid to leave even when they feel it is all off because of the way that the ideology is structured and because the very act of questioning it or challenging it is considered an "offense." The mechanism of somehow advancing or making progress is also tied naivly to assorted random rules and beliefs that if you don't do XY and Z then you will not make "real" progress. Or that you can chant for years, but because the mantra was given to you by an unqualified guru, you will not make any progress. And the list goes on with all the caveats, rules, random rituals, and endless bullshittery they feed you until you are essentially living in a complete fantasy with a complete fantasy goal.

Live your real life and take control of your fucking mind.

Tulsi Gabbard has a legion of otherwise decent "devotees" voting and supporting a criminal, vagina-grabbing, felon ass-hat. They unquestionably follow her not because it makes sense or is a natural choice but because they think it is "pleasing" to their guru to do so...

And that is also what all the asshattery in this cult ever amounted to: Do it because it is pleasing to the guru, and then you will be given the "gift" of genuine "love." Holy shit, wake the fuck up guys. Butler is an ignorant older man living in a tin-foil-lined oceanfront mansion, getting messages daily, and is the softest human on the planet. He never worked a day in his life and did not preach or talk to disciples. He walks around the block once a week dressed head to toe in white, every inch of his body covered in 80° weather and wearing a surgical mask while his lapdog "bodyguard" walks with him, ready to spray mace in your face if you attempt to approach them...

FUCKING RUN PEOPLE.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Culthusiast ()
Date: November 05, 2024 04:00PM

RUN_FOREST_RUN Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> then you will not make "real" progress. Or that
> you can chant for years, but because the mantra
> was given to you by an unqualified guru, you will
> not make any progress. And the list goes on with

That's interesting in connection with "In these transcendental names You have invested all Your transcendental energies.".
Contradictory.

Also interesting is that Narayana Maharaja said (translation):

"[Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja:] Even nama-aparadha is not ordinary chanting, it is high-class. There are so many varieties and shades of nama-aparadha, not just one variety, for example one of its varieties is vaisnava-aparadha. Actually, it is very good that they chant nama-aparadha. That will take them to nama-abhasa, and nama-abhasa will take them to suddha-nama (pure chanting of the holy name, in which Krsna reveals Himself as nondifferent from His name), and that chanting will take them to a still higher stage, to prema-bhakti."

[purebhakti.pl]

"Freedom is beyond control"

Also contradictory.

> Tulsi Gabbard has a legion of otherwise decent
> "devotees" voting and supporting a criminal,
> vagina-grabbing, felon ass-hat. They
> unquestionably follow her not because it makes
> sense or is a natural choice but because they
> think it is "pleasing" to their guru to do so...

To be pleasing to the married paramahamsa...

> the "gift" of genuine "love." Holy shit, wake the
> fuck up guys. Butler is an ignorant older man
> living in a tin-foil-lined oceanfront mansion,
> getting messages daily, and is the softest human
> on the planet. He never worked a day in his life
> and did not preach or talk to disciples. He walks

They say that the married paramahamsa was massaged by young women, including the daughters of his companions. As the correspondence shows, it was not being a paramahamsa that caused the "married paramahamsa" to distance himself from his female students (whom he was supposed to reduce the distance by by getting married), but marriage. The jealous wife of a married paramahamsa takes care of maintaining distance from other women. There is no room for competition...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/05/2024 04:02PM by Culthusiast.

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