RUN_FOREST_RUN Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I appreciate the discussions you bring here, as I
> do enjoy them and like to think about these
> things, but my main fundamental purpose in
> bringing them up is to dislodge the irrational and
> often arrogant notion that any ideas presented by
> Butler/Swami Maharaja/Puranas/Vedas are absolute.

If the shastras are absolute, why do they allow that they themselves can be, for example, badly compiled (because such statements are made). And if there are absolute teachings, let's take brahmacarya up to the age of 25, why did one of the main propagators of this knowledge not follow this absolute instruction by marrying a 12-year-old and having a child with her - with all due respect to the great work because the commentaries are undoubtedly worth reading.

>
> The theory of evolution, as proposed by modern
> science, is less a theory at this point and more
> like gospel. Within reason, some pieces are still
> missing, but with sane assertion, we may make a
> plausible connection—not like the pure fantasy of
> Puranic ideas and Vedic nonsense.

Basically, the theory of evolution lacks a formal proof with a stochastic process and probability distribution. Various specialists describe quite intricate details, e.g. how synthetic replicators or lipid shields are created, but in one of the works, for example, the link between the chain of subsequent stages was a completely improbable process, something equally improbable as that a programmer service technician will fix a reported user error without knowing the report by accident in the right line of code and with the right parameter, etc.

However, in this work there is actually an argument related to the mechanism opposite to the increase in entropy (the second law of thermodynamics) - an example of latches, bolts that occur successively (and are inherent in matter) would realize the increase in information in the structure. So this problem is discussed.


> Please may I remind you that Bhaktivedanta and all
> of us thought the sun was pulled around by a
> chariot and that a giant hog saved Earth from an
> ocean that filled half the universe. These were
> literal ideas we believed. Not symbolic or
> otherwise...

It would be better to admit that the mythological and symbolic presentation of matters was aimed at the ignorant. More honest. The Earth could sink into a cosmic halo - the arms of the Galaxy wave, this vertical movement is described. Intergalactic dust and gas is pushed by a stream of particles like in a sink, the water on the edges is pushed away by the one that falls from the tap in the center.

> On the topic of senseless words fo the swami about
> rape and so on, one can say this: No woman/human
> "likes" rape. Sure, there are fetishes and
> dominatrix-style sexual appetites. This is a
> fringe sexual expression, bu no means the norm. NO
> ONE LIKES OT BE RAPED. Expertly or otherwise.
> Insinuating that woman like violence towards their
> bodies against their will is the ramblings of an
> ignorant cult leader and religious fanatic who
> grew up in a culture that thought it was normal to
> marry 11-year-old girls to 22-year-old men...

True

>
> Krishna's head games of trists with married women,
> stealing clothes from bathing girls, and the whole
> invention of erotic lore by
> Jayadev/Nimbarka/Mirabai? Chaitanya et al. is a
> fetishistic distortion aimed at a concept of god.
Stealing clothes from girls can still be considered a description of carefree pranks in religious literature, but the expectation that everyone will stand naked and expose their intimate areas gives rise to pedophilic associations. After all, not everyone reading will be "advanced" and free from lust. And the worst is when it's little girls.


> I recall as a youth going around stealing flowers
> from people's trees to make garlands. We always
> thought that the neighbors who came out to
> complain were demons and that they do not know how
> lucky they are for "unconsciously" serving
> krishna. It's the height of delusional thinking
> and arrogance as far as cults and religions go,
> all while saying "namaste" and "Prabhu"... they
> have no real respect for anyone.
>
> RUN

Yama, universal moral principles. Do not steal other's property. Unciosciously serving? Again against Gita - "who offers with love and devotion" - not uncosciously.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/13/2024 09:30PM by Culthusiast.

https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/a63205452/tulsi-gabbard-hawaii-religious-sect/

RUN

Maybe all American ex cult members should write to congress as someone else did.
To warn them that butler is the dude who runs the show and not Tulsi.
50 letters are better than one.

An excellent write-up on Reddit that reflects precisely what Butler became as a guru and what many devotees/ex devotees struggle with:

https://www.reddit.com/r/exHareKrishna/comments/1hl4ep1/iskcon_and_neuroticism/

RUN

Butler has never been qualified to be a bhakti guru. His heart, mind and soul have always been polluted.
He should have just been a regular devotee in the Krishna consciousness mental hospital.
Like so many other narcissists and broken people who roam cults.
He is an amazing actor and manipulator. He was able to pull this crap because of the transcendental and mystical experiences of his followers.
And he would take credit for it and seen as the middle man.


There is no way anybody can truly see through the smoke when they are programmed.
When you step back and analyze the situation, you can see how bad it is.
He is a legend in his own mind and the mind of the poor followers.
The bliss addiction and the promise of getting off the wheel of karma and reincarnation will push people to destroy their lives and bodies, to serve him.
It is actually a very sad situation because many kind souls are attracted to this path.


Ultimately and hopefully there will be some “true” universal justice served and people such as him will pay a price for their actions.
The issue with that poor dude butler is that he is seen as faultless. So the fact that he has been tricked to think he is a “pure” medium of god, will never allow him to do a life review on this side and feel sorry for the abuse he has inflicted upon others.
He sees his abuse as mercy.


It is the regular fallen devotees who must constantly beg forgiveness and feel like crap.
The partial bliss mixed with misery will always carry this followers. The bliss and mystical experiences are the numbing agents.
So ultimately those who stay in the cult will never see how bad it really is.
Ultimately SoI is very materialistic version of Krishna consciousness.
It is far from being that austere.
People who come in this forum see the cult with much darker glasses than those who are in it. Because some don’t have it so bad.
I now get it why people stay in cults or are attracted to cults.
Ultimately every person has their own soul journey and we cannot always protect others from falling into traps. Or to leave traps.
Anyway, I hope you are all doing well.

What I have realized with all religions, is that They push you to accept and glorify the position of a beggar.
In this way you can easily accept your fate without questioning or rebelling.
I have heard Catholics say that god allows demon possession.
Can you imagine that?
It is not just Krishna consciousness that encourages the spiritual masochism.
It is just much worse than the other religions.
You must constantly repeat that you deserve even worse.
Religions are pacifiers. And they help humans accept their suffering.
It makes life easier.
And you just see the carrot at the end of the stick which is liberation.


Billions of humans on Earth need that reassurance.
If you think about it, the guru’s job is close to Jesus’ sacrifice.
They are meant to carry the sins of their followers.
I have studied all paths and theories for so many years and never found any answers that make total sense.
So I get why adopting one single theory will give you peace of mind.
And when you limit yourself to one belief or theory, you will have a narrow vision. But at the same time, your life will be more simple.
I sometimes wish I could go back to the lala land of beliefs but it is too late now.
All that I know is that we do not hold the truth. And we have been lied to.
No one holds the whole truth but pieces of the puzzle.
And that most are not able to accept that we are clueless. If one has the courage to accept this, then you will not get easily fooled by scammers who prose as spiritual authority. .

https://www.reddit.com/r/exHareKrishna/comments/1hqq87a/prabhupada_and_indian_nationalism/?$deep_link=true&correlation_id=45e3f22f-6d04-4c9b-8c48-b1364a8ccfa9&post_fullname=t3_1hqq87a&post_index=0&ref=email_digest&ref_campaign=email_digest&ref_source=email&$3p=e_as&_branch_match_id=1402285492475577509&_branch_referrer=H4sIAAAAAAAAA22Q3WrDMAyFnya9S3%2FitEsHYYyNMdhDGMVWEjHHdmWH9GrPPqXddjWw4fg7OpLwmHNMj7sdo7WUtxDj1pH%2F3Kn4VFS1ii1qSBuRgWkgD07P7NpxTRXquaje5CzLsv3JmzAJYLl4fQfGD6Y0epC3OBP6nEQexsuleVhhZOjGOYIFDd5q8pbAaw%2BZgoyitDYrlMw4VrVFjHrdrVCvmWcsqpMJzOhu1Zqs8PqIqq%2BqvjzZfV3W5tyVjambsjuoUw2NMT2cJRdDyrqfnfMw4dpO6b%2Bd7qZsgldx9gIYe1E4ATltacCU71AbmCLQ4P93U5jZ4K8ncM6TNsFn%2BQWhtzGZssPNl5QjM%2FlBdxyWhNy%2BjBwm%2FAavTaVjnQEAAA%3D%3D

Happy 2025. NOW RUN.

Krishna and butler have a nice way of occupying the mind like some parasites you cannot flush. Even after decades.
Think about it.
All the best.

Truthwins—

Your observations about Butler and cult dynamics underscore a tragic, recurring theme in many spiritual movements: the exploitation of people's hopes, fears, and search for purpose. Leaders like Butler thrive not because they possess inherent greatness, but because they prey on the psychological and emotional vulnerabilities of their followers. And yes, Butler appears to relish this role, enjoying the material perks it brings—otherwise, why not live a simple life as a babaji, like others in the Gaudiya tradition?

When people seek meaning or solace in a chaotic world, the promise of bliss, transcendence, or liberation becomes almost irresistible. This is not only why religions persist despite preaching what is often akin to fairy tales but also why humans continuously evolve mythology, storytelling, and narratives like the "hero's journey." People want to see themselves as special recipients of golden wisdom, a unique path, or a grand ideology. This inclination stems from our complex brains and reasoning capacities—we’re constantly searching for meaning and purpose.

However, this same creativity and reasoning often lead to over-complicating our sense of self and existence. Ultimately, many religious systems become so fantastical that they lose coherence. Take, for example, the notion of a "transcendental" realm where one becomes a cowherd maiden serving a blue, flute-playing god on some celestial cow planet. Why would anyone consider that a "reality," let alone an "absolute" one?

Religion and cult dynamics frequently create a false sense of "knowing" and stability. Compliance, for many, stems more from fear than love for an invisible deity or devotion to an abstract godhead. Most people are drawn to the idea of a magic pill—something that solves all problems. The Hare Krishna ideology, for instance, thrives on the delusion that its mantra is "all-powerful" and its scriptures "absolute." This gives followers a false sense of security.

The manipulation of mystical experiences, often claimed by the guru as evidence of divine connection, is a classic control mechanism. These experiences, while deeply personal, become tools to solidify the leader's power. This dynamic is less about genuine spirituality and more about psychological conditioning. Once someone believes their joy or salvation depends on a specific person or system, breaking free becomes nearly impossible. Cults establish infallibility through endless rules and caveats, fostering a hopeless cycle: when results don't come, the fault lies with the follower's lack of faith or improper practice.

Consider the devotee who, after 50 years of chanting, still attends Bhagavad Gita classes asking the same questions. They’ve spent a lifetime in a rigid system that suppresses the very traits that make us human: the ability to question, adapt, and grow. Can you imagine a world where everyone believes the same things and performs the same rituals endlessly? True existence thrives on adaptability, not rigid adherence to outdated dogma.

Even within broader Vaishnavism, the Gaudiya sect often appears cult-like, quick to dismiss other paths and fabricate concepts without evidence. Its ultimate dictate—"chant and be happy"—and its goal of transforming into a "manjari" or cowherd boy, is naive at best and delusional at worst.

Have you listened to Bhaktivedanta Swami’s chanting? It often sounds robotic, almost unnatural. The Hare Krishna movement primarily attracts Indian Hindus raised in similar religious traditions or Westerners lured by its eclectic mysticism. But even the movement’s mythology is blatantly India-centric—its gods, avatars, and sacred imagery are tied exclusively to Indian culture and geography. On a planet as vast as Earth, why would a universal god fixate solely on one region?

Your mention of "bliss addiction" and "numbing agents" is especially relevant. Cults and religions exploit this addiction cycle by offering fleeting highs and chronic guilt, creating dependency. By framing suffering as a path to liberation and obedience as devotion, these systems capitalize on people's innate desire for meaning and fear of unworthiness.

Butler, for example, used initiation as a carrot, ridiculed his most loyal followers, and employed threats to maintain hierarchy and control. Is it any wonder that Tulsi Gabbard aligns with figures like Trump, whose rhetoric mirrors some of Butler’s? Butler's mix of harsh, degrading spirituality and feel-good activities like kirtan created a cycle of addiction that kept followers mentally docile.

This phenomenon isn’t confined to cults; mainstream religions follow similar patterns. At its core, it reflects humanity’s tendency to outsource accountability. The concept of a “pure medium of God” shifts scrutiny away from the guru while placing the burden of failure squarely on the followers. This dynamic has been a cornerstone of systems like Brahmanism in India, which Bhaktisiddhanta cleverly incorporated into his version of the Gaudiya tradition—despite the fact that, historically, the Gaudiya tradition placed little emphasis on Brahminical initiation. In fact, Chaitanya himself is rumored to have declared, “I am not a Brahmin.”

It’s also worth noting that while the six Goswamis invested immense effort in constructing a theology to support what Chaitanya supposedly stood for, much of it hinges on readers accepting bold claims about texts like the Bhagavatam and other relatively recent Puranic writings. Moreover, the actual maha-mantra isn’t even mentioned in the Bhagavad Gita, Bhagavatam, or Chaitanya Charitamrita. Nor is the position of the Radha goddess even mentioned in any of the core Vaishnav texts. Fixation on the "divine couple" as a pastoral love affair is a fairly recent idea even in the Vaishnav canon.

We have very little verifiable information about Chaitanya himself, as even his hagiographies disagree on major events in his life. The entire narrative begins to feel no more credible than Christianity and its claims about the Christ figure. Ultimately, it’s impossible to know whether these figures truly existed, let alone how much of their stories were manufactured by religious fanatics, zealots, or spiritual personalities prone to “visions,” “dreams,” and “revelations.” Joseph Smith, anyone?

You question "universal justice," and rightly so. Without a cosmic overseer, justice comes from us—our willingness to expose fraud, hold wrongdoers accountable, and educate others. Waiting for divine retribution only perpetuates the passivity these systems thrive on.

Not all cult experiences are equally harmful; some find community or structure that outweighs the negatives. However, this doesn’t justify the harm done. Dismantling these systems requires offering better alternatives for connection and purpose. For many, the cult’s appeal lies in its social aspects—a sense of belonging, music, food, and cultural novelty. But we must challenge this by fostering critical thinking and self-reliance.

Your insights raise a broader question: how can we create a world where fewer people turn to these systems for meaning? Embracing uncertainty and the limitations of our understanding might not bring immediate comfort, but it offers a more authentic path forward. By rejecting ultimate answers and focusing on reason and compassion, we can build a foundation for genuine liberation—one based not on submission but on autonomy and inquiry.

Culthusiast mentions that the Bhagavad Gita fosters a method of inquiry, but I see it differently. While the Gita contains much wisdom—some of which aligns with universal truths found in other philosophical or spiritual systems—it is, at its core, a text centered on the relatively recent Puranic deity Krishna as the ultimate object of surrender.

Some interpret Krishna in the Gita as a representation of Brahman, the Advaitic concept of universal consciousness or creative reality, using Krishna as a symbolic stand-in. However, this interpretation doesn’t change the fundamental issue: the text ultimately calls for total surrender to a very specific, sectarian conception of divinity. This approach isn't universal or inclusive; it requires acceptance of the broader Vaishnava framework, including the lore of the Bhagavatam, its mythical cosmology, and its often fantastical narratives.

These Vaishnava texts, including the Bhagavad Gita, are relatively recent in the timeline of spiritual literature, dating back no more than 1,000 years and subject to significant interpolation, particularly within the last 200-500 years. When taken as a whole, the Gita inadvertently fosters not inquiry, but a form of dogmatic adherence to its specific brand of spirituality and ideology.

For those seeking a truly universal and inquiry-driven approach, the Gita’s insistence on surrendering to a particular deity within a sectarian framework limits its applicability and undermines its claim to universality.

The skepticism you express is itself a form of liberation in my opinion. By questioning, doubting, and analyzing, you’re fostering the very qualities that can help break this cycle—not just for cults or religions, but for humanity as a whole.

RUN

Truth wins Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Krishna and butler have a nice way of occupying
> the mind like some parasites you cannot flush.
> Even after decades.
> Think about it.
> All the best.

Former SIF members sometimes go to psychotherapists or psychotraumatologists. And they hear comments like "they really brainwashed you in this sect. You can still see the effects of that" implicitly after 25-30 years. Or they say "everything you say you use against yourself again".

RUN_FOREST_RUN Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Culthusiast mentions that the Bhagavad Gita
> fosters a method of inquiry, but I see it
> differently. While the Gita contains much
> wisdom—some of which aligns with universal truths
> found in other philosophical or spiritual
> systems—it is, at its core, a text centered on the
> relatively recent Puranic deity Krishna as the
> ultimate object of surrender.

The Bhagavad Gita raises doubts in various aspects. One of them is the "heinous acts that a devotee of Krishna can commit". One can assume that acting strictly according to the will of God will be just, but then the entire classification of sinful acts, the code of Manu, Garuda Purana etc., collapses because everyone will claim that they killed, robbed etc. by the will of Krishna. Prabhupada comments on the aspect as sporadic falls etc. Balakhilya das uses here the technique of accusation of judging. Whoever criticizes a member of Butler's sect judges, puts himself in the position of a judge. But differentiation, distinguishing, evaluating is something different from judging. Another aspect of the Gita that is intriguing is "enduring all anxiety". A transcendental state. This would have to be a truly mystical state. Let's take the notorious pains of many hours, such as with cancer etc. You can't be calm. Suffering forces concentration on pain, and when it is severe and long-lasting, a person crosses the barrier of clinging to life and prefers to die.

Regarding surrender, Prabhupada emphasized that surrender to Krishna would take care of everything. However, the ISKCON service body generated a lot of controversy.