Run Forest Run

I think you are dedicated and selfless when it comes to trying and help others not to fall into traps.
It is sad what we are able to put up with in such settings. When you leave you realize what the fear, going beyond your limits… did to your body and mind.
Yes Universal justice may only work through us. We cannot sit and wait for Karma to work in 20 lifetimes.
We live in an overly tolerant society.
It warms my heart to see noble people who do not only care about their lives.
I have not been able to find good friends and a community, but will never settle for hell just to mingle with some decent souls.

I know a woman who was with Iskcon in South America in the 80’s I guess. She has wonderful experiences. She left ages ago. She is clueless that it is a cult.
She has no clue about the demonic gurus. It is amazing how every person lives in their own universe.
Every person I come across tried to sell me their beliefs. I do not get it why we cannot let beliefs alone?
There cannot be one truth with all these theories. It is a huge mess.
And by the way, the mystical tricks are not only linked to religions.
But they are the best way to trap souls.
The thirst for spiritual connection pushes people to accept many outlandish theories. It cuts you off from the inner protection. The voice of reason.
I had to betray that inner alarm to stay on a path that promised me liberation.


In all honesty, I no longer trust any deity. I feel that it is a blind trust that comes across as cat fishing. Like what happens when you trust someone online and they happen to be scammers. You have no clue who you give your energy to. There is such a thing as “false light”. And many fall for it. Love should not be a business transaction. I remember my dad never expected anything in return from his kids. Let us hope that less and less souls end up getting damaged. I have respect that you question everything. I know many who leave a cult and fall for another belief.

Cuthusiast. Always think of you and your kindness. Hope all is well.

By the way do not forget something important.
What made butler leave the LSD and astral projection yogi life?
He, himself was lured into the path via the bliss and mystical experiences.
He himself felt for the so called love for god. That cocaine nectar of Krishna consciousness.

I don’t think he just faked it to become guru.
Ultimately followers also suck the energy of teachers.
The whole guru system is messed up.
I agree that some souls may be wiser or more advanced. That can help others.
But idolizing a man at the level of a god, is insanity.

Butler never "astrally" projected anywhere. This is just some nonsense they tell you in the cult.

Have you ever taken LSD, TruthWins? It’s not exactly a sustainable drug if you want to, for example, tie your shoelaces or even speak coherently.

The moral of the story about why Butler fell for the Hare Krishna cult is simple:

Butler saw an opportunity to ride the wave of a rising religious movement and capitalize on its sense of legitimacy and structural authoritarian dynamics. Remember, the ideology of so-called "parampara" and ancient scriptural authority gives gravitas and is far more convincing than telling your followers you "saw the white light." It was easier for him to position himself as a "guru" with the backing of a lineage and the supposed authority of scriptures.

It didn’t take Butler long to show his true colors within ISKCON’s dynamics. As soon as his guru’s body was in the ground, he made his move. Actually, one could argue he started making his move even before that.

There is zero "attractiveness" in the Krishna conception beyond its natural appeal as a pleasant narrative: a sexy, long-haired, blue-skinned god who has lovers, is a king, a cowboy, and a yogi all rolled into one.

I urge you to study the history and evolution of Hinduism, specifically Puranic Hinduism. I urge you to study the evolution of Bhaktisiddhanta, Bhaktivedanta, and the so-called Chaitanya Vaishnava lineage. Look into the mythology of Radha—her invention by medieval poets with ZERO scriptural backing. Chant 64 rounds a day for years and see if any major transformation occurs in your ability to tolerate suffering, regulate emotions, or overcome the limiting factors we all encounter. Real maturity comes from rational analysis, philosophical inquiry, and systematic psychological exploration—not rote chanting.

If chanting worked, wouldn’t India be the shining example of spiritual and societal progress? The "holy name" has supposedly been chanted in India since the dawn of time, and it’s said to be God’s favorite place to incarnate. So what happened? Why didn’t it work? From a rational perspective, India would be the paramount example of such "advanced" spiritual techniques having a redeeming effect on society. But alas...

As for Butler, I’ve rarely encountered a supposed guru so obsessed with others’ sex lives, so filled with anger toward other religions, and so dismissive of his own devoted followers. He isolates himself in a beachfront villa, served daily by people he likely despises.

Bhaktivedanta and his guru were born and raised in the traditions they proposed to society at large. But how did that work out beyond India? Most Gaudiya and ISKCON centers now primarily attract Indian Hindus, with their appeal to Westerners largely reduced to Sunday feasts and kirtan. Many young devotees spend more time on social media posting AI-generated images of their Marvel-esque Krishna, Rama, or Shiva fantasies than engaging with their own scriptures.

Few devotees study their texts. Instead, they listen to lectures from gurus they idolize, only to move on to the next guru when their current one inevitably disappoints.

There’s a lot of backpedaling and inconsistency about what it even means to be a Hare Krishna devotee today. Some turn Bhaktivedanta into a Christ-like figure, claiming there are no true gurus left. Others reject the need for a guru entirely, which directly contradicts the faith’s core teachings.

The movement is riddled with incongruities, fallacies, and endless apologetics.

The reality is that the Hare Krishna faith isn’t particularly special, except for the parts that make it a cult: personality worship, blind adherence to an absent guru, rigid ritualism, and the rejection of society, friends, and family unless they conform. Add to that the insistence on an artificial worldview, and you’re left with believers who are often just shy of madness.

Personally, I enjoy the mythology of the Puranas and Vedic texts as allegories for the human psyche and moral exploration. But I find more practical wisdom in other philosophical and psychological systems.

The Krishna concept doesn’t resonate with me. Deity worship feels tacky and gaudy, and Krishna’s pastimes come across as naive medieval tales. Far more realistic and equally potent parables exist in ancient and contemporary texts. ISKCON and Gaudiya Math seem rigid and ritualistic, promoting lifestyles often unsuitable for most people.

There is no "unbroken" lineage. There is no Radha. There’s no doctrinal composition by the epileptic saint Chaitanya. In fact, there’s little evidence Chaitanya intended to start a movement at all. Public kirtans were already common in his time, so it wasn’t a novel idea. The ideology that developed around him and turned him into an "avatar" was simply a personality cult.

The bottom line? Butler left his hippie hut meditation sessions and LSD trips because they were too small-time for him. He wanted something more substantial as a guru. And you know what? He got it. And his dumb followers gave it to him.

RUN.

Astral projection is not such a big deal and many people are able to do it.
No I have not taken LSD.
I can only speak from my experiences since I was a kid. And Krishna Consciousness just sucked me in like a vortex.
Both with the internal feelings and the supernatural. This has been something others shared with me too.
I also listen to many stories as to how people were driven to Islam or Christianity.
It is always linked to the same thing.
Once you are hooked, then you become a blind follower.
But first you will be given something tangible.

I have gained a greater understanding of reality and do not fall for these things very easily. But most people do. When you step back and use your critical mind, you wonder how the actual hell you even accepted so much non sense. It is good that you never fell for that stuff or maybe were not exposed to it. I know that a person who accepts all the austerities of those path, does not do it with zero rewards.
Another phenom that is very popular now is the NDE stories. Many people come back with their experiences and they are all very different.
Humans need these things to hold on to some hope.
I spent thousands of hours looking at all that is so called spiritual in this reality. Both light and dark.

Ultimately all paths are somehow flawed. Followers and believers are afraid to question the flaws because they are told it is perfect. The fear factor is what handicaps people. So they will advance only according to what is presented to them. It is a controlled evolution. The mind is designed to get programmed. The bhakti yoga is already a deep program. On top of it, add the guru butler who is expert in mind control. You get even more programmed. So clearing that garbage is far from being a walk in the park. I can assure you that I still have some residue junk. I feel fortunate that I now have a more broad vision of spirituality and this reality. I know I almost don’t know anything. It is better than to believe we hold the absolute truth and never dig deeper. You are a very smart person. I hope that your interest in the metaphysical grow at one point. It will expand your consciousness even more.

Truth wins Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I know a woman who was with Iskcon in South
> America in the 80’s I guess. She has wonderful
> experiences. She left ages ago. She is clueless
> that it is a cult.

If someone evaluates ISKCON or SIF as a "consumer of the benefits of faith" i.e. comes to kirtans, eats free food, meets friends but never puts his own life on the line, does not adopt a servant attitude then he may never experience the sharp teeth of sectarianism or utilitarianism. Sweet balls, chapatis, nice singing, you can meet a nice spiritual guy and then continue the relationship in bed and when he disappears find another one. But when someone quits his job and lives in a sect for 2 years, he will be left with only one pair of pants, panties, his family will curse him, the sect will be offended and Midgett so and so will order him thrown out on the street in 1 hour or 24 hours without a penny in his pocket the matter will look different.

> In all honesty, I no longer trust any deity.

There are many deities. Who has researched the topic that the Krishna cult merged with the Vasudeva cult in a historical sense? Why do some deities have moustaches - Indian anthropomorphization? To what extent is this an absolute proposition and so on.


> Cuthusiast. Always think of you and your kindness.
> Hope all is well.

All the best, Truth Wins.

Truth wins Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> By the way do not forget something important.
> What made butler leave the LSD and astral
> projection yogi life?
> He, himself was lured into the path via the bliss
> and mystical experiences.
> He himself felt for the so called love for god.
> That cocaine nectar of Krishna consciousness.
>
> I don’t think he just faked it to become guru.
> Ultimately followers also suck the energy of
> teachers.

According to newspaper reports and statements by his brother, for example, he no longer found meaning in his existence despite being socially involved in charity and opened the Haiku Meditation Center. Enlightenment, being the only medium for God, became the new meaning. And above all - there was money in it.

RUN_FOREST_RUN Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Have you ever taken LSD, TruthWins? It’s not
> exactly a sustainable drug if you want to, for
> example, tie your shoelaces or even speak
> coherently.

Supposedly LSD can be a source of sociopathy. Perceiving strange masks on people's faces can affect the overall and ongoing perception of every person you meet, sharpening "their demonism". The demonic nature of every person you meet.


> The moral of the story about why Butler fell for
> the Hare Krishna cult is simple:
>
> Butler saw an opportunity to ride the wave of a
> rising religious movement and capitalize on its
> sense of legitimacy and structural authoritarian
> dynamics. Remember, the ideology of so-called
> "parampara" and ancient scriptural authority gives
> gravitas and is far more convincing than telling
> your followers you "saw the white light." It was
> easier for him to position himself as a "guru"
> with the backing of a lineage and the supposed
> authority of scriptures.
>
> It didn’t take Butler long to show his true colors
> within ISKCON’s dynamics. As soon as his guru’s
> body was in the ground, he made his move.
> Actually, one could argue he started making his
> move even before that.

Looking at the numbers, the growing popularity of ISKCON became a dangerous competition for him. A better product. So he infected the movement with his person and decided to ride the wave of Prabhupada's popularity. He danced close to the "guru", published his booklet even though he was accused of not having read the Bhagavad Gita with Prabhupada's commentaries. He himself claimed during lectures that he read it in one night. The question is when. Before or after the criticism. Of course, it could all have happened in his subconscious, the sum of factors or rationalized at the same time. Here comes the competition, the proposal seems reasonable, the brawl begins and those who enter the business first will win. They will be higher in the hierarchy. During lectures, he himself admits what he was interested in.

Quote
Date of lecture: 15 April 1984 Tape ID number: AZ1137/X41A2
You see, when I was a kid I went all the way through school, I went all the way through twelve years of school, of high school - regular school - and two or three years of college and I never - I never - after all that, okay, I never really had a clear idea of the difference between a atom and a molecule and how they... the cells were made up of this, you see? The reason was because I wasn't interested. Why? "So what?" Right? "So what! Who cares?" That was my attitude, right? "Who cares? Molecules this and atom that and...", right? "And the biology and who cares and let's go surfing," (laughter) you know? But when it came to things that I was interested in in my real life... What was I interested in in my real life? In my family, in my real life, I was brought up learning about... seeing real life things. Like our family was driven out of the southern state of - what do you call that state? - New Orleans, Louisiana, when I was a baby because they were shooting at my parents because we were... we were the communist black-lovers, nigger lovers, okay? So because of this therefore, because of these things I was always interested reading things that I was interested in in real life, you know? Discrimination and political things and, you know, when the CIA comes to our house and bugs our phones you become interested (laughter) in a real life... you know, on a real level. You understand what I'm saying? You become interested in these things on a real level, you know? So I was interested in politics or I was interested in, you know, communism. I was interested in capitalism, I was interested in exploitation and in prejudice and in violence and in war and all these things, right, and... okay?

"I went all the way through..." - they say - no, not finished college.

The difference between an atom and a molecule is interesting. The difference between polarized or non-polarized covalent bonds, ionic bonds. Hydrogen bonds. Very interesting. Why can there be 6 electrons on subshells and whether this is not due to the arrangement of spin in 3 dimensions, etc. These are philosophically interesting matters.

The fable about Prabhupada's sincere disciple, on the other hand, is again a clever twist:

Quote
Date of Lecture: 2 November 1993 Tape ID number: SPA 9331/M87A3
_________________________________. Unfortunately some of my fellow disciples of Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada did not take the opportunity that they were given, that they were offered and instead chose the appearance of devotional service rather than the real thing in order to be able to play the role of teacher or guru and be Number One and so what happened was that when he left the planet - and this is... actually commonly happens every time a spiritual master leaves the planet almost. Those disciples who are after power or after the `stuff'- the paraphernalia or the properties - and who see their spiritual master in a materialistic way, scramble for the goodies, scramble for the possession of the buildings - and power. Because we're talking about, you know, I mean the yearly income of Iskcon was around twenty million dollars, so - to my... I mean, that's just a guess. And, you know, there's like seventy-five temples around the world and maybe five thousand disciples that you could try to lord over (laughs) or something, you know? It's like a very sad sort of situation because it's very, very... it's always sad to see somebody offered the real thing and they take the imitation, they take the trappings.

Fortunately for myself, I had never gotten... I'd never been part of the Iskcon society, in that sense. Mainly because (laughs) I didn't WANT to be, (laughs) you know? I mean I was - fortunately - I was interested in Krsna and I had a personal relationship with my spiritual master but I couldn't give a flying FUCK about the organisational aspects and all the politics and all the buildings. And unfortunately, though, for me, this made me disliked by many people in that society, in that organisation; that for some reason - it's like if you don't fight with them and want to become one of their competitors then they think that you think that you're too good for them or... it just become a weird political... bullshit, you know, that kind of stuff. So essentially, I just do my own business: preaching, trying to give people Krsna.

But the problem is, you see, in a disciplic succession... you have many people who are disciples and Lord Chaitanya's movement is transcendental and invisible. This means that the current is, the current of spiritual love - and that is not something that you take down to the mayor's office and register as an organisation. It's not something that you can get some kind of external documentation for, or whatever. Do you know what I'm saying? It's completely different and separate from an ecclesiastical... Do you know what ecclesiastic means? A professional religious system.

So every spiritual master will set up an apparatus, everyone who - don't need say spiritual master - everyone who is trying to give people Krsna does... will need to do something in terms of organising and trying to have some kind of apparatus so that they have a bank account, so that they can rent a place for chants or put up a temple or make it so that there's a place of worship, or make it so that there's books that can be distributed or whatever it is, you see? So there's always the danger - not the danger because there's really no loss, it's just some confusion for some people - but there's a problem in the sense that disciples may gravitate towards wanting Krsna's property rather than wanting Krsna and to give people Krsna, so the problem is that when a spiritual master leaves the planet there are many people...

(tape cut)

...worship them or have people pay them respect or have power, have money. In other words, basically they become demons, (laughs) you know? They don't become demons, actually they already were demons. So, this is why the spiritual master of our... my spiritual master, the spiritual master... his name's Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati - he's the spiritual master of Bhaktivedanta Swami. He commented several times that we must beware of demons in the dress of devotees. We must beware of, be cautious of, be careful of those who are, in fact, demoniac in their consciousness but have all the trappings. They wear the right facial marks, they have the hair cut properly, they wear the proper spiritual uniform of the vaisnava or they wear the proper tulasi beads and they have their proper spiritual names - and externally they are initiated by a bonafide spiritual master. But, in fact, inside they are demons. Demons means that they are actually envious and don't actually want Krsna, they want to be lording over the... playing guru - exploiting other people in the Name of Krsna.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/06/2025 11:16PM by Culthusiast.

Let me tell you how souls are kept in a spiritual prison.
All paths tell you not to look at other theories or religions.
Jesus in the only way. Islam is it. Krishna consciousness is the top of the line.
Never look at other theories. You will go to hell.
In this way, people keep swimming in a pool. Never knowing there is an ocean out there.
And that you must dare stepping out of the comfort of the pool.
But fear keeps you in.
One must play Russian roulette and give up the one truth or deity is all that exists.
This is why I walk the path alone. I do not let others pull me in nor do I want to pull others in.
Be your own spiritual master and save you knees and back. No need to bow to anyone.

Another great post on Reddit that touches upon many of the things I have been pointing out here about the Hare Krishna cult:

https://www.reddit.com/r/exHareKrishna/comments/1hvqx5e/iskcons_obsession_with_food/?%24deep_link=true&correlation_id=a4542b1d-6421-4cf2-b175-9bc065e6be22&post_fullname=t3_1hvqx5e&post_index=0&ref=email_digest&ref_campaign=email_digest&ref_source=email&utm_content=post_body&utm_medium=Email%20Amazon%20SES&%243p=e_as&_branch_match_id=1402285492475577509&_branch_referrer=H4sIAAAAAAAAA22P207DMAyGn6a767amBwTShBAIIfEQUQ5uay0nnJSOG54dlwFXSIn0%2B%2FvzO%2FZcSsp3hwOBtVj2KqW9w3A%2BtOm%2BEl2bTiBV3rGMhBMG5eRC7jRvqap9qMQzn3Vd9z95Ez0D4guXF0XwSpjnoLhmx0MomWUzv79demCF%2BWxiyDLqDDljDHLFMssxRru1brl7LzoLkOQ2VdU%2BFVo4OJhIBE6VLYKWuer6TujG1kMnmrozo6h1c9PXt9ochx4GDUJwLsVc5Lg4F5SHrV0r%2F6a5mhgsXNg5MiAYWYFX6KTFCXK5QmmUTwqn8L%2Bb40IGfj2GS%2FGS9yy8P9Pvb3S0H7tPfg1EGCapKa4Z6PQ4U%2FTwBYr0Dm6WAQAA

And...

https://www.reddit.com/r/exHareKrishna/comments/1hvo49w/the_crippling_effect_of_life_in_iskcon/

Everyday folks are waking up. Thank god.

RUN.

RUN_FOREST_RUN Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
https://www.reddit.com/r/exHareKrishna/comments/1hvo49w/the_crippling_effect_of_life_in_iskcon/

Quote

When a devotee leaves not only must they experience the fallout of sometimes decades of abuse and the destruction of their self esteem, they have to rebuild their life materially while working through it. This can be the hardest thing one does in life. It is the dark night of the soul. The devotee has no education, no qualifications, no job history, no rental history, no credit history, no money. These have to be built up slowly while struggling through what can only be described as near insanity. Many are tempted by suicide.

The healing process can begin unconsciously as soon as one leaves. There can be an explosion from the subconscious of intense darkness, confusion, anxiety, depression, fear, that was all repressed while you met the demands of the cult. Many devotees live their lives in this state of repressed fear, terrified of the world and everyone in it, clinging to Krishna through prayer, hearing and chanting and constant service. The devotee enters deeper and deeper into submission to escape the anxiety caused by submission.

The world can be very cruel to those who have been damaged and cannot fend for themselves. It places such people at the very bottom of the social hierarchy to perform the most menial and humiliating tasks and does not provide a living wage or health insurance. The world demands a certain level of self confidence and achievement to survive. Ex-devotees are nowhere near having the level of stability. It can be the struggle of a lifetime just to rent a hole in the wall and make enough to eat. An ex-devotee is more akin to a soldier returning from war with severe PTSD.

A very good fragment and it does not refer only to ISKCON but fits any authoritarian hierarchical sect or cult.

Psychotraumatologists in a session with former cult members (contrary to appearances, these are few psychologists and psychotherapists) indicate that joining the sect itself was a response to certain deficiencies or needs. Here, one must distinguish between the search for transcendence and the need to fill the social void left by a dysfunctional family. Philosophically more demanding sects with more in-depth or detailed knowledge may attract people seeking more explanations of reality, while a dysfunctional family is still a greater engine, greater strength, greater drive. Not necessarily a lack of love, but an awareness of the fragility of love may also be a drive to take some spiritual path that, at some stage, involves joining a group of a specific guru of a specific tradition.

Here, the mechanism of becoming totally dependent on the group is described. The sannyasis we dealt with talked about the role of the guru being to make a person more independent and fully independent from others. Then we can say that addiction in a group is the weakness of temple presidents who build their career, ego, comfort and appreciation etc. on sheep. The question is what today's sannyasis are like - the conditions of a country with a temperate climate and a culture that does not support wandering poor saints are not favorable. After one cold night, a 75-year-old can get kidney disease sleeping under a bridge and leave his body. In the sanghas of sannyasis, they are hosted, fed - in India. So here the culture is favorable and besides the climate is warmer. Otherwise, a spiritual veteran must rely on the sangha that will take care of him until death, like in Poland, for example in the case of Narashinga das, which is a positive example. The question, of course, was whether Narashinga das was a sannyasi. He was not. Butler was no longer a sannyasin because he had broken his sannyas vows.

In any case, in conversations with a psychotraumatologist, one can hear that if joining a sect resulted from trauma, then the sect was a form of cocoon, but development was stopped. Personality development. Of course, the context of development is important, and here the question arises whether a psychotraumatologist is a materialist or a spiritualist or simply a realist, because inevitably the criteria of "development" are related to the philosophical context. One can meet psychotraumatologists who, academically educated, do not reject neutral spirituality as such or live in the reality of accepting death, helping in the dynamics of life before death but without living death as such as a result of trauma. This type of psychotraumatologists seem to be best qualified to help.

For them, joining a sect is still, to a greater or lesser extent, a response to the needs and dysfunctions of the family.

In turn, you can come across - referring to the hidden dark side of the unconscious - comments that people leaving sects will inevitably encounter the reconstruction of their own shadow. The dark zone.

Another aspect is failed relationships. According to a psychotraumatologist psychologist, it is not the expectations towards the partner that are too high, but it is the partner who places too much in the other person that the other person is not able to bear. Not in the form of expectations, but too much devotion or commitment. One could substitute God and this may be unbearable. An ordinary person has not undergone the drainage of their being in false devotion to the "guru" and the group.

Former SIF members have elevated cortisol. Which can be reduced in one way or another. Their agreement and tension are reflected for years. Of course, they also suffer from PTSD, or more precisely PTSDc. They can also be victims of a misdiagnosis of paranoid schizophrenia after psychotic incidents, but the basis is trauma and PTSDc.

Either way, the question ultimately comes down to whether a solitary sannyasi is an isolationist or a member of the sangha. Prabhupada emphasized that the Chaitanya movement is not a solitary movement. Narada Muni was a solitary traveler before he became a spiritual traveler. These seem to be conceptual inconsistencies in the doctrine.

When it comes to hard work and undertaking the lowest tasks, here we can say that no work is degrading and this is not a problem.

The problem may be the psychological tendency to undertake difficult challenges, avoiding comfort as "materialistic", etc.

Guilt over leaving the sect, choosing a seemingly easier material life and seeking "substitute service" for God. Or quite consciously - performing it differently.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/10/2025 12:08AM by Culthusiast.

Great observations!

Here is a nice resource for continued study of the underbelly of this cult and the philosophical and other issues they face in a modern context:

https://gaudiyadiscussions.gaudiya.com/forum_83.html

RUN