Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Date: December 09, 2024 05:58AM

I urge everyone on here to send the links we have published, outlining what Gabbard really is, to all news outlets.
Everything you need to know about TG is on this forum.

Hopefully saner minds will prevail and the TRUTH will win out.

[www.nbcnews.com]

Confidentially issues? You better believe that Butler knows EVERYTHING that goes on behind closed Congressional doors.

Did TG disavow Butler? Unless we see it in a video and/or she makes a public statement, we have to maintain that she is still under his control.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Date: December 11, 2024 02:22AM

The clock is ticking.

"Hear that Ms Tulsi...


[www.youtube.com]

https://www.civilbeat.org/2024/12/senators-urged-to-examine-gabbards-deep-and-intense-ties-to-hawaii-sect/

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: December 11, 2024 02:24AM

If anyone objects to this article, contact Honolulu Civil Beat.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: RUN_FOREST_RUN ()
Date: December 11, 2024 07:41AM

Why would anyone object to it? Anita was in Butler's personal service and dealt with top-ranking members of the cult even before my time. She has zero vested interest in smearing Gabbard or even drumming up attention since the cult is well known for suing and attacking ex-members and those who reveal their inner workings publicly.

https://www.civilbeat.org/2024/12/senators-urged-to-examine-gabbards-deep-and-intense-ties-to-hawaii-sect/

Not to mention, in all the years we have exposed this cult, not one person's story has ever changed or shifted. All are verifiable here and corroborated elsewhere. What has changed and shifted and tried to cover their tracks is the Cult. It's the same with Tulsi. Any sane person who takes a quick look at her trajectory politically, starting with her "Jai Gurudev" video years ago and see the flip-flopping aligns with what Butler's preaching was about and how he has always been divisive in his preaching style and trying to appeal to followers by modifying his brand of "gaudiya Vaishnavism" to appeal people. Because on face value, let's face it, it's one of the most Mickey Mouse religious cults in history.

RUN

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: RUN_FOREST_RUN ()
Date: December 12, 2024 04:32AM

This is a funny thread. Sad thread. Horrid thread...

https://www.reddit.com/r/cults/comments/1h0db91/worth_reminding_people_about_tulsi_gabbards_ties/?chainedPosts=t3_t62wlz

If you read the comments, you will see people getting hung up in disbelief about the "eating Siddhswarupananda's toenails clipping/sand he walked on."

To whoever reads this:

Picture yourself a 10-year-old child sitting in a room about to eat some food with a group of fanatical Hare Krishna types. As you finish saying your eating prayer, a senior devotee walks around with a small folded paper or ziplock baggie with clippings of Butler's toenails, sand he walked on, hair clippings, pieces of fabric he wore/discarded, or dried leftovers of food from his plate. You are told that this is "MAHA," short for Mahaprashadam — extra special "mercy" from the guru. You are told to put your right hand out and bow your head in reverence as you receive these morsels of "mercy." You then quickly say "Jai!!!!" and bow down on the floor. You then put this "maha" on your food and eat up.

These were weekly occurrences. Even when I was in the Philippines (Butler's illegal boarding school for boys), my parents would send me "Maha" like this. You were told to put it on your food, but most of us just ate it as is.

The fact is these types of practices were common in the cult as well as ISKCON.

It is not uncommon to drink the "bath water" that washed your guru's feet or sprinkle it on food or on your head. The same goes for the water or milk/sugar that bathed the metal and plastic statues at the temple. Sometimes, this stuff sat in bowls for 2-3 days and was literally going off/rotting, and you still took sips of it in veneration.

We were raised to believe this stuff erased our sins from many lifetimes. We were told that chanting like a robot on little plastic or wooden beads over and over for hours, day in and day out, was somehow "purifying" us.

We bowed on the dirty floors with our full body and face touching the ground. We engaged in mindless rituals like "artik," wherein we waved around fire lamps, incense, shells, and fans towards little statues and believed that we were "worshipping" god. We spent our days dressing little statues in tiny clothes and putting food on little tiny plates and cups for them like we were playing with dolls.

Then, when all that nonsense was over, we lent our ears to long-winded lectures and stories/myths we were told were "real," and if we did not believe them, we were going to some evil hell in a lower planetary system where we'd have to endure some sort of macabre torture for lifetimes.

Devotees in these cults claim it's all just about chanting and dancing and hearing the amazing stories about god, etc.

That is as far from the truth as it can get.

Once you start to find all that stuff boring or frivolous, they make you go deeper down the rabbit hole. They tell you that all the chanting and dancing does not really work unless you "surrender" to the guru and become a disciple. So you start the groveling process of asking your guru for initiation. Butler was famous for refusing to initiate people and stringing them along for years. Do you know how maddening that is for a sincere follower? To be told that you are not really making any true advancement till you are a disciple. But your guru, usually with no explanation, will not initiate you.

So devotees would leave or try to get initiated by other gurus in the same religion. Of course, they were immediately told they were "offenders," that they would never make real progress, and that the only true guru was Butler. Excommunication ensued.

After years of this kind of emotional dance, you start to find out about the more "esoteric" and "secret" aspects of the beliefs in the cult. And like all cults, the deeper you go, the crazier the stakes get. You are told that the ultimate goal of what you have been doing for the past 20-40 years of your life is to hope against hope that god/guru reveals your "eternal identity" as a 12-year-old cowherd girl maidservant of Radha and Krishna. Lower levels include being a boyfriend cowherd boy, a parental figure, or simply a blade of grass or some bell hanging on a cow's neck... and you are meant to absorb all your mental concentration on this "form" fully and the "pastimes" — amounting to nothing more than some fantastical figment of your speculative imagination.

All this while you often sacrifice your family, friends, career, and sense of normalcy or sanity. This sort of crazed and fractured mental fantasy at this point has become your entire reality and what you actually consider as "absolute truth."

On another note —

ISKCON can't seem to shake the mess. Amongst the harassment and atrocities of Hindu (and other) minorities in Bangladesh, the focal story has become that of one "poor" Chinmoy Krishna Das, arrested by the Bangladesh government for sedition (also known as "starting trouble").

Who is the de facto ISKCON guru/saint/troublemaker who has his fanatical followers hoist saffron Hindutva Hindu nationalist agenda flags in the so-called name of crimes against Hindus?

Chinmoy Krishna Das, a prominent figure in ISKCON Bangladesh, faced accusations of child abuse as part of an investigation by the ISKCON Child Protection Office. Allegations emerged in 2023 from several children, leading to a directive from the Child Protection Office prohibiting him from any interaction with minors under 18 years old. He was temporarily suspended from performing religious duties while an investigation was conducted. Due to non-compliance with the directives, Chinmoy Krishna Das was permanently expelled from ISKCON in 2024.

Additionally, he has faced other controversies, including allegations of disrupting communal harmony and misusing his position within ISKCON.

The Bangladesh branch of ISKCON is known for chanting the Hindutva phrase "Jai Shri Ram." When in the history of ISKCON has it been a practice to chant "Jai Shri Ram"? Never. Just like in Butler's cult, we never once called ourselves "Hindus" until it became politically advantageous to cry "Hinduphobia" whenever people ask who Butler is and where all the money has gone.

So yeah, trouble follows this cult around. And rest assured, while "terrorist group" is a strong word, they absolutely attract a following of fanatics and fundamentalist dogmatic and agenda-based preaching. Far from being "non-sectarian," as they like to suggest, they are very much a sect and cult that seems to time and again attract the scum — and often, that scum somehow or other comfortably settles in top-tier positions of influence and followers. I'd argue dumb followers who are easy to manipulate, like authoritarian and dictator systems, and are a sheet away from Bhaktivedanta's rhetoric of:

Morning Walk, March 15, 1974, Vrndavana —

Prabhupada: "When it will teach military art, with tilaka, soldiers will, Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna (laughter). We want that. Marching with a military band, Hare Krsna. You maintain this idea. Is it not good?"

Hrdayananda: "Yes, Prabhupada."

Prabhupada: "When there will be a military march of Krsna conscious soldiers. Anyone who does not believe in Krsna, Blam! (laughter) Yes. The same process as the Mohammedans did, with a sword and Koran, we’ll have to do that. Do you believe in Krsna or not? No, sir. Blam! Finished." (laughter, Prabhupada laughs)

Madhudvisa: "Yes."

https://harekrishnatruthout.wordpress.com/category/indepedant-thought/

RUN

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: RUN_FOREST_RUN ()
Date: December 12, 2024 11:14PM


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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: RUN_FOREST_RUN ()
Date: December 13, 2024 01:07AM

Good one: https://www.reddit.com/r/advaitvedant/comments/1affll2/iskcon_exposed/?rdt=47520

Even those within these traditions don't buy their version. It simply does not make sense philosophically and does not align with previous scriptures in their own tradition.

RUN

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Culthusiast ()
Date: December 13, 2024 06:06AM

Thank you very much for providing this link here. This is the fragment about rape and other issues.

In the context of the division into Vedic scriptures, Vedas and others, the issue is of course raised that i.e. the Puranas are not strictly Vedas etc. In turn, you can find descriptions on the Internet that more than 90% of the literature allegedly written by Vyasadeva has been lost.

Another issue is that the Avestan language is close to Sanskrit. The dating of the Avesta is another matter. Which came first - the Veda or the Avesta. One hypothesis may be that a number of writings were a translation of Zoroaster's Avesta, but the obligation to legend would require the creation of a mythical Vyasadeva for local needs so that it would not turn out that our "guru" father is the foreign Zarathustra (Zoroaster) (following the concept that the invasion of the Aryans was a gradual invasion of Iranian peoples on the Indian Dravidians or according to some Dasas. That the Pandavas were an Iranian people.). In addition, there is the issue of the creation of fragments of the Atharvaveda, according to some, supposed to have been created at the earliest even before the Rigveda.

As for the issue of rape, here the matter is interesting because as it was written on this forum earlier, rape is one thing and sexual domination together with theatrical make-up or even restraining partners etc. in order to cause sexual arousal or desire is another. This is a fact. So one can accuse A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami of an unscientific approach here.

The second aspect is that in psychology today sexual behavior is associated with aggression - at least I have heard this personally from psychologists I know with several decades of experience.

The same psychologists, in turn, talk about the physical reaction of the body, which during rape can react with pleasure together with psychological rejection. Division. "Dissociation".

Some raped women experience the actual rape for a very long time, writing letters to the rapist for years, while for the rapist it was a moment of animalistic behavior, an insignificant moment of violence and domination from the point of view of life history, while for this emotional woman it was important and she struggled with it for years.

There is a Polish film "Ashes" where lovers are attacked by highlanders. According to the director, he asked the legendary Polish beauty actress to play the rape scene in such a way that she experiences a form of arousal or orgasm during the rape but rejects it and throws herself into the abyss. Here is the link:


[www.youtube.com]

In turn, the discussion on the existence of higher developed beings is also poorly treated by A.C. Bhaktivedanta.

One of the theories is the theory of panspermia - which may soon be verified since earthly satellites are already flying around the moons of Jupiter or Saturn (Europa, Enceladus, etc.). The presence of organic compounds on Mars is also being studied.

Another concept is the connection of panspermia with landings - the theory of landings, i.e. according to this, life on earth developed either spontaneously or due to panspermia, but human beings, i.e. their ancestors, arrived from planets closer to the core of the Galaxy, where naturally stars were formed and ignited earlier.

The concept of a planetary galaxy is unknown in Indology. There is talk of a disk, but these are still far-fetched attempts.

The purely materialistic concept says that life originated in the soup of the primeval ocean. It is very unlikely unless the primordial ocean was central, concentrated, freely mixing, but according to current knowledge, heavier elements would have to be created in supernova explosions - the synthesis of nuclei heavier than iron requires energy supply - it does not give energy. Hence large nuclei in the decay of e.g. uranium - give off energy.

The interactive model of the creation of life, see Butler's recollection of the second law of thermodynamics, means negligible probability.

On the other hand, the model with virtual dimensions with the influence of the "satva" force as an immanent part of the multidimensional universe with the bolt of adding information to the system would mean that life or organization arises everywhere (rajasic force - thermodynamically unstable states. Local information growth, creation, organization into complex structures with eventual necessary destruction). The earliest on planets near the center of galaxies where they ignite earlier and then on such an Earth life can be a combination of panspermia, naturally induced life plus landings of different races interpreted as people from different planets around different stars, hence the differences in skin color where they also come from ancestors from landings.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 12/13/2024 06:25AM by Culthusiast.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Culthusiast ()
Date: December 13, 2024 06:39AM

When it comes to women who like to be allegedly attacked by lustful men, this is again a simplification that can be called manipulative, "connoisseur-like" or being ignorance or relish.

Women like to be desired and men too. "Am I sexual?". They like seduction but by someone who is... attractive. Seduction, especially intrusive by an unattractive or even violent person of the opposite sex, will be met with immediate rejection.

Another aspect is fading desire - in the press you can find sentimental stories about wives and husbands in whose orderly lives desire has faded and they seek this excitement outside of marriage. Or in my family - a rich, professionally fulfilled woman, with a steady partner for a dozen or so years, suddenly says that she has met a man and is happy because there was "this thrill of emotion", "she felt beautiful and desired", "there was this chemistry". And a dilemma arises - will she destroy her orderly life or commit a one-time betrayal, etc. The problem is as old as the world. I also know couples who have not had sexual contact for a decade. And yet they are together.

I also know women who are professionally fulfilled, after going through things with men, who prefer to have a man - weaker - a bit of a mother, a bit of a lover and wife. Weaker means dependent, less risk.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: RUN_FOREST_RUN ()
Date: December 13, 2024 07:53AM

As of 2024, no reliable theory beyond the Big Bang and evolution through natural selection holds any water. This does not mean other ideas are not plausible/possible/provable, but we defer to a sane discussion.

It's actually pretty amazing without resorting to total fantasy:

https://medium.com/amazing-science/an-eternal-and-uncreated-universe-or-the-big-bang-12f5ccf7c4fd

Whether skin color resulted from alien life landing on Earth millions of years ago or from natural selection, adaptation, and slow mutations, the fundamental physics of skin color would apply to a distant galaxy and alien race as well: skin color or any feature of a living organism is the result of natural selection, adaptation, and slow mutations, whether here on Earth or in a galaxy far far away.

I appreciate the discussions you bring here, as I do enjoy them and like to think about these things, but my main fundamental purpose in bringing them up is to dislodge the irrational and often arrogant notion that any ideas presented by Butler/Swami Maharaja/Puranas/Vedas are absolute. The fact that we were told they are is at the heart of the issues of this cult or any religion that makes such claims. And the notion that if we reject the absolute claim, we are somehow fallen or lacking in wisdom or purity is, again, a load of horse shit. In the least cow shit.

The theory of evolution, as proposed by modern science, is less a theory at this point and more like gospel. Within reason, some pieces are still missing, but with sane assertion, we may make a plausible connection—not like the pure fantasy of Puranic ideas and Vedic nonsense.

Please may I remind you that Bhaktivedanta and all of us thought the sun was pulled around by a chariot and that a giant hog saved Earth from an ocean that filled half the universe. These were literal ideas we believed. Not symbolic or otherwise...

Call these myths symbolic is one way to put it, and one can then spend all manner of world jugglery to try to make some scientific associations. But why? Why must one make all manner of explanations and excuses for something that makes no sense at face value? Betterer one says they do not know and leave it at that, rather than make shit up and tell everyone it is the "absolute truth"...

On the topic of senseless words fo the swami about rape and so on, one can say this: No woman/human "likes" rape. Sure, there are fetishes and dominatrix-style sexual appetites. This is a fringe sexual expression, bu no means the norm. NO ONE LIKES OT BE RAPED. Expertly or otherwise. Insinuating that woman like violence towards their bodies against their will is the ramblings of an ignorant cult leader and religious fanatic who grew up in a culture that thought it was normal to marry 11-year-old girls to 22-year-old men...

These distorted ideas of sexuality, women, male/female/homosexual relationships are the result of idiotic religious outdated practices wherein there is a huge emphasis on the "evil" nature of women, framing women as a stumbling block for spiritual progress and sexual renunciation and celibacy and other restrictive and UNNATURAL sexual habits and beliefs that mostly result in unhealthy feelings of guilt, aberrations about sexuality and ultimately sexual abuse. I'd way rather conceive of a woman with a whip engaging in consensual expressions of sexual play and power dynamics than a bald hare krishna emotionlessly humping his wife while chanting "Hare Krishna" feverishly and reading gita as foreplay.

Krishna's head games of trists with married women, stealing clothes from bathing girls, and the whole invention of erotic lore by Jayadev/Nimbarka/Mirabai? Chaitanya et al. is a fetishistic distortion aimed at a concept of god. In fact, many if not all other Vaishnava sects other than the Gaudiyas accept these ideas. And the gaudiya cults have made a mockery of hinduism at large with their arrogant preaching style of kirtans and book distribution. It's a tasteless and arrogant form of preaching to go out in the streets and impose your religion and ideas on others by loudly chanting and banging on instruments. I remember as a youth waking up in Vrndavan to loud speakers blaring devotional music at 4am. It's fucking awful and disruptive. Nothing peaceful about it. A totally in-your-face approach that disregards other peoples personal space and taste.

I recall as a youth going around stealing flowers from people's trees to make garlands. We always thought that the neighbors who came out to complain were demons and that they do not know how lucky they are for "unconsciously" serving krishna. It's the height of delusional thinking and arrogance as far as cults and religions go, all while saying "namaste" and "Prabhu"... they have no real respect for anyone.

RUN

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