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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Culthusiast ()
Date: August 15, 2024 10:21PM

Lecture by Tapasya das, translation pages 3 and 4.

Tapasya das's lecture is also interesting in other aspects. Tapasya das accuses the use of vulgarities such as "fuck up" but Chris Butler used such. Supposedly he distinguishes between something being fucked up and someone being fucked up. Except that it was Chris Butler who called people "asshole". Tapasya das tries to create the appearance that what is happening is not what he is involved in, tries to avoid image responsibility. He is surprised that leaders fight for position and copy his behavior and do not treat him as spiritually inspiring. A moment earlier he says that Chris Butler did not tell them to listen to him. Chris Butler is supposed to be a spiritual authority but why don't people get inspired by Tapasya das but copy him in terms of behavior and fighting for position. Mixed and tangled. The topic of getting rid of Radha is also interesting because on the altars in some centers there was only Gopal with a deer and a bull or a cow. There was no Radha. Interestingly, the leaders never said what the doe or the deer or the cow's name was and never gave them special offerings. And supposedly spiritual life is personal....


Quote

"Unless someone from the given persons comes and asks him to do so. This is their private matter, but it is not like such a leader thinks that he has a license to kill false ego. Let him kill his own first, because you can see who has the biggest. In this he is a leader, that is correct. …Such a leader can give public lectures, classes, pass on what he has heard, maybe raise some topic, read Bhagavad-gita. Answer questions on vyasasana. But there is no teaching. He comes down from vyasasana and that is it. There is no teaching. He goes around and asks others what they would like to do, encourages. …Here you have to be that sheepdog and not leave the sheep to themselves. Instead of leaders gilding their own person, maybe they would take care of the people, because that is their job. But unfortunately they do not think about anyone else but themselves, about their invented career. This is a tragedy. And then they wonder where such a standard comes from.

…Leaders behave like directors, not humbly. In a sense, they want to copy what they see only from the outside, with their eyes, at my meeting. One meeting, one situation. (not to mention the place, time, people, circumstances, which are never the same) And they also see me, what I am (still) like, (for example) at home? And somehow my daughter is not afraid of me. Those who are afraid of me are those who don't know me and have such a perception perhaps hatched in their associations, mutual fights about who is cool and who is not a devotee. And some try to look better than they are in front of others. And they got so carried away with it that they think that I am also taking part in it.

No, I am not taking part in it and neither is SP. And what do you think, in which direction are leaders and all these people going? They're still going in the same direction, only now here in these climates, in these paraphernalia.

Only the environment has changed, but they're going in the same direction. It's still about jealousy, destroying each other, going over each other's heads, who's higher, who's lower. Only now it's about who's more "advanced", "sincere", "serious".

...I was told that the crowning word (of one of the leaders) is that everyone is fucked up and fucked up in the head. How can you say that? I can say that what someone says is fucked up and I'll prove it, because that's what they think anyway. But I'm not saying that this person is fucked up, because I make the distinction. I see this person as a student, an admirer and I see that they've put their right slipper on their left leg.

And I say that it's fucked up, but not that they're fucked up. That's why it's a mess here. Therefore, these leaders should not teach at all, because they simply have nothing to teach (other students).

…When I came to Poland, everything was from scratch. And then there was this philosophy that first we rent new centers. That was a mistake. Now I don't care if there's a center somewhere or not. If you want to have a center, you can have it. Don't think that a center is for some great mission. This whole system sucks. The system of leaders, centers, financing of various things. For example, someone gives subsidies and has the impression that some mission pays for everything. There's no impression that they're paying for it. People should know that if they paid, they have it and if they didn't pay, they don't have it. It seems to me that we need to inform that so much money is needed for this and that and who would like to give money for it. And we'll count on these people, that they will remember their commitment every month or say early enough that they don't have it and then we can get the money early enough. Or for example someone may not know that we are the ones who invite Balakhilya das and pay for his stay here and treat the retreat as some invitation to a performance and constantly complain that it is too expensive, that the food is not the best, etc. Everything here goes the other way.

I can say one thing: I was disappointed in these leaders... When they were left (alone in the centers without control), they started making their own ice cream, protecting their position and everyone started running after them in the other direction.

...What if they watched each other? And the leaders didn't think they were bishops and the voice of God and weren't allowed to say anything? As disciples, we should take care of the mission and if something is harming people and the mission, you have the right to interfere. Not to teach this person, but to tell him about it with respect and humility. Not like the leaders do, who behave as if they had a license to draw attention. Who gave them that? Nobody even asked them to.

The leaders climb to the top and shout from the pulpit at others that they are idiots and are not up to their feet. This is Iskcon. That's why this happened to Iskcon. They ruined the whole work of Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. There were hundreds and thousands of cool devotees there, who may still be there somewhere, but they are led by people who instead of helping them act like paupers. Just like some Catholic priests are cool, but the subject has been spoiled, because the leaders have been people who have never understood anything, always wanted to be gurus, wanted to have careers, never ended their material life, always strived for their own profit and progress – of course in their understanding, because spiritual progress is going downwards and not upwards.

Such people with such a mentality would even go so far as to get rid of Radha. Maybe they would like to poison her, talk to Krishna about her, pull some kind of a prank, etc. Such people will not enter the spiritual world, because they do not fit there. They would not be able to live there with Radharani, because for them it would be competition. And for the gopis it is not like that. But such people will not understand it, for them someone is lower, someone higher.

…No one thinks like that in the spiritual world. When they start thinking like that, they immediately find themselves here. Because this is where this world is. This is a disease of the soul, this is something that destroys you, destroys others, it only makes a mess. All suffering comes from the fact that you start thinking about yourself.
You immediately become competitive, everyone is an enemy, something doesn't suit you. As long as you didn't think about yourself, it was good. And from that comes envy and mess, because you started thinking about yourself....”



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/15/2024 10:27PM by Culthusiast.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: RUN_FOREST_RUN ()
Date: August 17, 2024 10:16PM

The cookie crumbles. Thank you for posting this lecture of a scrambled egg.

RUN

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Culthusiast ()
Date: August 18, 2024 01:22AM

Former members of SIF in Poland have more evidence and will be examining it in detail. One accidental statement can be formal evidence of, for example, a crime. More topics have emerged. According to witnesses, a number of people in Poland are waiting for Balakhilya das and the "guru" to leave so that they can leave or join another group without any problems with ostracism and expulsion from the sect. You can already see people in photos of other groups in Poland who go there. This is generally contrary to the instructions of Balakhilya das, on the basis of which the late Madhai das was ostracized. There are people who have experienced very unpleasant events but are afraid to come forward officially, although they are in contact with former members.Materials are to be created in PDF format.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: RUN_FOREST_RUN ()
Date: August 18, 2024 05:54AM

Yes, please keep collecting any voices that have come out on social media in this place as a record.

There are many devotees over the years both in iskcon and science of identity Foundation who feared leaving their respective cults due to either retaliation, or threats of damnation and displeasing guru or god. These kind of partisan tactics are used to this very day very effectively within the cult and its members towards those seeking to either get out, are becoming disillusioned or voicing their concerns and so on.

We have read about that here many times where devotees felt paralyzed and risked excommunication for attempting to try to get inspiration in other gaudiya vaishnava cults.

And while my personal feeling is that there is really not much difference in following one of these Cults or another, the very fact that some of these cults have this kind of rhetoric is abysmal and counter intuitive encounter productive and against all of their so-called sidhanta.

Either a god and relationship with such a Deedee is based on Mercy and non sectarian pluralism, or all of these Cults are basically saying that God only is accessible and functions through the medium of their very small and specific sets of beliefs and ideologies.

Philosophically these groups are not That much different Period so if somebody is a genuine teacher or leader they should simply be happy for Their disciples comma students and followers To gain inspiration wherever they can Period Otherwise comma philosophically There is little to no Divergence between the groups. So then it just simply becomes a materialistic Affair of belonging to some very specific physical group. But obviously my argument is that all of it is ultimately materialistic and selfish. People do not come to these paths or remain within them for anything shy of personal reasons and selfish desire and concern for saving their souls or achieving some kind of naive perfection to an abstract deity.

In other words, any claim on their part of selfishness being there because people are wanting to explore other similar groups or simply have voiced their concern about leadership and overall nuanced management, is moot. Naturally any such drive and desire for continued self-improvement, or access to a better belief system is an intense selfish Pursuit and drive. It's definitely not any kind of dissolving or abnegation of ego. All it is is building a new ego in relation to and association with this new selfish endeavor. That's all.

Selflessness is a delusional proportion. We almost consider, admit, and understand that anyone embarking on a so-called spiritual path or Journey is undertaking the most selfish quest of all. Usually one that Trump's the concerns of family, friends and even religion.

On that topic, it looks like the Great gaudia vaishnava lineage is secure with Tulsi Gabbard acting as Sri Ganeshji to shriman Trump G. She has genuinely turned into one of the most self-absorbed and self-serving religious cult political figures of Our Generation and now in pure, unalloid service to one of the most self-serving idiotic politicians known in the entire universe. Jai Ho.

RUN.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: RUN_FOREST_RUN ()
Date: September 03, 2024 04:24AM

Religion/cults have always been good at one thing: Fear-mongering. Since the dawn of time, political opportunists have created a non-existent polarizing identity politics of "Us versus Them," " Angels versus Demons, and Good versus Evil...

I'm sorry. When did you last walk into any American town and see someone actively stopping or hindering religious activity? Is there some lack of churches, places of worship, temples, mosques, synagogues, and any number of cults springing up daily?

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/faith-voters-will-decide-this-election-according-to-prominent-gop-members/ar-BB1oOgtT

Gabbard would have you believe that we are living in some sort of "end days" started by the democratic "elite" where religion is outlawed, and religious folks are being taken to concentration camps and told that if they vocalize that they are of a particular faith, they will somehow be eradicated.

Bhaktivedanta Swami et all had this same sort of alarmist rhetoric. If anything, the acceptance of religious minorities, the free practice of any faith that flies your freak flag is widely accepted and embraced by the average person. If anything, there is less polarizing Christian-dominant ideology and more religious pluralism than ever in American history.

The only way cults and most religions thrive is by creating a narrative of "us versus them". Or victimhood. Always has been that way and is to the very day with all manner of unresolvable conflicts worldwide caused primarily by religion and cult-like dogma. Butler always played a victim. Even blaming his followers for his failing health and countless petty things.

There are no gays/trans/queers coming into your kid's schools, converting them to "demonic" pagans. If anything, many people in this country have tried to create acceptance and tolerance and lessen the hate. But have a talk with the average Hare Krishna about any of the above and they will lose their shit and start foaming at the mouth, chanting in "ecstasy". Many, I hate to say it, are even ardent supporters of truly demonic and low-class people like Donald Trump, whom Tulsi Gabbard, top disciple of Siddhsarupranda Paramahamsa AKA Chris Butler, is in full support of. Gaudiya Vaishnavas in support of a woman-abusing, hate-inciting, arrogant, self-absorbed narcissists. Kind of makes sense. The whole personality cult of the hare krishna is based on mindless worship of often self-absorbed nonsensical guru/godmen who sit on elevated thrones, accept all manner of worship and services while espousing nothing more than the equivalent of fairytales with sexually charged narratives of the "divine couple" fucking for eternity in the bushes of vraj surrounded by literal cow and bullshit in what someone imagined to be a really special place. So in the end it makes total sense why such a mentality would naturally gravitate to the lowest common denominator as yet another personality-cult worship syndrome in His Holiness Donal Trump Ji.

The masses of mindless trump-heads gathering at religious events are not there due to rational consideration but simply "blind faith" that he and anyone who wants to stop immigrants, fags, drug addicts, aborting moms, and trannys from pouring into our communities being a messiah. Sounds like a cult I know. No wonder all of that is right up Tulsi Gabards alley. We were all pretty much raised with that type of thinking/hate/intolerance in the name of a loving god. Cognitive dissonance, anyone?

The brainwashed religious mind is not one of rational considerations. At least not as its guiding principle. It's largely one of ill-informed emotionalism. A person "believes" in some scripture/guru/god for little more than their parents or community do—or a naive "feeling". A person joins a cult cause they have a mental illness or are simply "looking for something more", often when they are at their lowest and most vulnerable. And as a general rule, none of that is an issue. Religion offers answers, or at least soothing ideas, that appear to be a good stand-in for some larger questions in life.

Take this woman here:

The most widely performed child delivery method—especially in India—becomes a cult classic and breaks social media for millions of brainwashed cult followers:

https://www.hindustantimes.com/trending/woman-sings-lord-krishna-bhajan-during-c-section-delivery-internet-says-it-s-the-purest-form-of-love-101718869019495.html

The procedure is performed under anesthesia, has a high success rate in modern times, and has been performed throughout history with people chanting to Greek gods, Roman gods, Christian gods, Islamic gods, and just about every god available. Yet a woman chanting Krishna and Govinda makes the internet cultys swoon in ecstasy.

Unreal naivety. Poor doctors delivering the child must have been rolling their eyes. Poor mom is brainwashed and now brainwashing the next generation—indoctrination from birth. Completely rewiring a child's brain to believe in utter nonsense. Trapped minds. Next up, she'll tell him what guru man to bow to and worship. And so the sick cycle continues. On rote, like the mantras, they chant.

RUN

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Culthusiast ()
Date: September 05, 2024 03:55PM

RUN_FOREST_RUN Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes, please keep collecting any voices that have
> come out on social media in this place as a
> record.

This is not a meticulously confirmed piece of information, but according to witnesses Balakhilya das, Johny Baldwin Midgett did not personally appear at the mantra.pl meeting in Sielpia Wielka - a retreat with people from outside the group. He was supposed to travel around Poland but did not come to Sielpia. We will see if this is confirmed. The important point here is that he supposedly has a tourist visa. If evidence of supervision and control of a religious association or recruitment to a religious association were shown, he could have problems with a visa. In another country.


> There are many devotees over the years both in
> iskcon and science of identity Foundation who
> feared leaving their respective cults due to
> either retaliation, or threats of damnation and
> displeasing guru or god. These kind of partisan
> tactics are used to this very day very effectively
> within the cult and its members towards those
> seeking to either get out, are becoming
> disillusioned or voicing their concerns and so on.

If they don't want to blindly believe in Butler, it is enough to formally scrupulously verify his behavior in relation to the scriptures of the Gaudiya tradition. A married paramahamsa. And generally the behavior of a "loving guru" who did not visit his underage disciples in Baguio. This is the easy part. The hard part is how to cope with the loss of relationships with close people who will be in the group...


> And while my personal feeling is that there is
> really not much difference in following one of
> these Cults or another, the very fact that some of
> these cults have this kind of rhetoric is abysmal
> and counter intuitive encounter productive and
> against all of their so-called sidhanta.

If all this, regardless of the "advancedness" of the group, is at the level of mental fairy tales, ceremonial, liturgy, life in a community of given religious beliefs, then without a doubt. The actual transformation is profound. Lack of attachment to existence in a given dimension. Lack of fear of leaving the family. These are most often traumatic experiences. And this is life among people living the same fairy tale interwoven with material life, etc.


Thích Quang Ðuc [en.wikipedia.org]

Take the Buddhist monk who burned alive in South Vietnam in protest of the persecution of Buddhism. He was not attached to life. He had the ability to withstand being burned alive....

> Religion/cults have always been good at one thing:
> Fear-mongering. Since the dawn of time, political
> opportunists have created a non-existent
> polarizing identity politics of "Us versus Them,"
> " Angels versus Demons, and Good versus Evil...

Dichotomy. This makes it easier to control. It strengthens the cohesion of one group. For the third player, e.g. the financial establishment, the political dichotomy allows both warring groups to impose control - financial.

But the fear of death is another matter. The ultimate solution would begin by facing the fear of death and not getting into the partisan dichotomous propositions of "religious death insurance."

> The masses of mindless trump-heads gathering at
> religious events are not there due to rational
> consideration but simply "blind faith" that he and
> anyone who wants to stop immigrants, fags, drug
> addicts, aborting moms, and trannys from pouring
> into our communities being a messiah. Sounds like
> a cult I know. No wonder all of that is right up
> Tulsi Gabards alley. We were all pretty much
> raised with that type of thinking/hate/intolerance
> in the name of a loving god. Cognitive dissonance,
> anyone?

The behavior of ISKCON members towards Tulsi Gabbard is very interesting. In their admiration for her, they no longer remember how her "guru" called his godbrothers "clumps of dog stool". In addition, for example, several times when they promoted her on their profiles, they were shown, for example, the fact that she took money from Planned Parenthood. They continue to admire her. Where are your Vedic principles? Where is the belief in reincarnation and karma. No. Here, the madness of supposedly belonging to the same faith and the cult of personality makes these issues irrelevant. Here is the great Tulsi Gabbard and she professes the same faith as we do. And the fact that she breaks its principles no longer matters.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/05/2024 03:58PM by Culthusiast.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: RUN_FOREST_RUN ()
Date: September 08, 2024 01:42AM

Today we celebrate today when the best of vaishnavas got extremely pissed off and cut off his own son's head. When his wife got angry at him, he did her a solid and put an elephant head on the dead son's body and brought him back to life. So glorious.

RUN

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: RUN_FOREST_RUN ()
Date: September 09, 2024 06:33AM

An interesting post on Reddit regarding something called the Alexander technique, which from what I know, is some kind of posture and mindfulness technique developed by some Westerner, but this posters reply really correlates to the way Cults work and cult thinking...


"Mind/Body awareness techniques can absolutely be useful. I think the problem with the Alexander technique is the classic twofold, nearly-placebo set:

-The originator discovers that some form of introspection can help break up destructive patterns of thought. Since the originator is not familiar with the effects of tai chi or other meditative forms, he gets giddy with a sense of discovery. That sense of discovery feels fucking great! He credits that exhilaration to the technique itself and starts preaching.

-Although mind/body techniques can be useful, the effect of any such technique that does not involve physical exercise is so small as to be overwhelmed by any other approach. That is, the effect is only a tiny bit better than placebo, and for nearly any illness we have treatments that are significantly better than placebo. The wikipedia article mentions that massage is much more effective than this technique.

The trick here is that being converted to a zealot feels almost as fantastic as the originator's ecstasy of discovery. It can even feel better than the discovery because the discoverer always has doubts. Becoming a zealot can fix pretty much anything in the realm of pain or sadness.

The result is that you get the same dynamic as with any other conversion meme. Some people say the technique works wonders, but what's actually helping them is the preaching they're doing. You'll find this with reiki, fakey Buddhism, being a fan of a new band, over the counter sugar pills, switching operating systems, living in a large house, buying a fancy car... It's more fun recommending that someone else do something you're doing than it is to actually do the thing.

So your friend had a lot of fun telling you this thing is awesome, and you'll have fun telling other people it's awesome, and once you're done preaching you'll find that you don't think about this technique for months at a time, then years.


RUN

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: September 09, 2024 10:18PM

"Some people say the technique works wonders, but what's actually helping them is the preaching they're doing."

Wow - thank you for posting this! It explains a lot of the appeal of conspiracy theories, too.

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Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by: Culthusiast ()
Date: September 10, 2024 06:16PM

Perhaps verbal expression combined with communication to multiple recipients (social behavior) engages more centers in the brain, activates more neurotransmitters, makes more connections, etc.

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