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barabara

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It isn't about language...

Language is important...

It's about the courts...

It's about my experience...

It's about predatorial people in society..

This seems to me like an attempt to discredit the thread such as posts by those referred to as "trolls".

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ughaibu
Upsidedownnewspaper: Is it germane to "maintain that AA is not a destructive cult"? Considering the inquiry addressed by this thead, you may be crying before you're hurt.
You should also bear in mind that on various threads members of the (alleged) cult, under discussion, have appeared and attempted to justify the organisation in question. So, if you intend to successfully challenge a perception that AA is a cult, you will need to address the cultic features of the organisation, not simply extoll the organisation's virtues.

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There has been some mention of court rulings requiring attendance of Alcoholics Anonymous as a release condition, can somebody provide more information about this, please. Specifically, in which countries, under which provisions of law, how Alcoholics Anonymous was classified for the purpose and how restricting the options to this group was justified.

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While there are no statistics bearing on the frequency with which judges specifically impose AA as a probationary condition for DUI offenders, AA's status as the dominant self-help program suggests that it is very high.

Federal courts have twice addressed the constitutionality of requiring AA attendance as a condition of probation.

Robert Warner was convicted of three alcohol-related driving offenses over slightly more than a year's time.As a condition of his three-year sentence of probation, Warner was required to "attend Alcoholics Anonymous at the direction of [his] probation officer.

[b:594f870d59]"The sentencing judge did not offer any alternative rehabilitation programs to Warner.[/b:594f870d59]

The judge followed the recommendation of the probation department which, as a matter of policy, specifically recommends AA therapy to the court for DUI cases.A self-described atheist, Warner filed suit, claiming that mandatory participation in AA as a probationary condition violated the Establishment Clause.

Warner alleged that his forced participation in AA was unconstitutional because of AA's emphasis on God and spirituality in its program of recovery.He particularly disagreed with the use of a prayer invoking "the Lord" at the beginning of AA meetings and the encouragement he received at sessions to read The Big Book.

In Warner I, [b:594f870d59]the district court held that Warner stated a valid claim under section 1983 and denied the probation department's motion to dismiss[/b:594f870d59].

In Warner II, the district court considered the merits of Warner's section 1983 claim. The court held that the probation condition that required Warner to participate in AA violated the Establishment Clause.

In Warner III, [b:594f870d59]the Second Circuit affirmed the district court's finding in Warner II that Warner's probationary condition constituted forced participation in a religious activity.

The Second Circuit found that the program which Warner attended "placed a heavy emphasis on spirituality and prayer, in both conception and in practice.[/b:594f870d59]"Observing that participants in the program were told to "pray to God"for succor in their battle against alcoholism and that meetings began and adjourned with "group prayer,[b:594f870d59]"the Second Circuit had "no doubt" that the meetings Warner attended were "intensely religious events.[/b:594f870d59]"

The court left open the question whether the state would have violated the Establishment Clause if Warner had been [b:594f870d59]"offered a reasonable choice of therapy providers."[/b:594f870d59]

In O'Connor v. California, the United States District Court for the Central District of California held that requiring a DUI offender to attend an alcohol treatment program as a condition of probation [b:594f870d59]did not violate the Establishment Clause.[/b:594f870d59]

[b:594f870d59]Two self-help programs, AA and Rational Recovery, were pre-approved by Orange County as meeting the county's requirements for its "additional program."[/b:594f870d59]During O'Connor's probation, Rational Recovery, a secular alternative to AA,met in Orange County only five times a week; AA meetings were held much more frequently. He attended both programs, dividing his time roughly between them based on their compatibility with his schedule.

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For the Warner III and O'Connor courts,[b:594f870d59] the presence or absence of choice between secular and religiously-oriented self-help groups was decisive.[/b:594f870d59]

Therefore, a probation referral system that offered both secular and religiously-oriented rehabilitation programs to probationers might not violate the Establishment Clause if the overall system were neutral.

Many probation referral systems, however, either do not provide a secular option, or, if they do, they do not endorse it as strongly in word and deed as they support the nonsecular program (AA).

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III. ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS IN PRISON

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ughaibu
. Undemonstrable hypothetical entities "beyond ourselves" do not intercede in our drinking.
To say "I stopped drinking with the help of my belief in God" can be true, in the case of certain people with certain religious beliefs, but to say "I stopped drinking with the help of God" is not true.

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ughaibu
Upsidedownnewspaper: Drinking is a real activity, if there is something other than the drinker that can influence whether or not the drinker drinks, that something must also be real and demonstrable. Undemonstrable hypothetical entities "beyond ourselves" do not intercede in our drinking.
To say "I stopped drinking with the help of my belief in God" can be true, in the case of certain people with certain religious beliefs, but to say "I stopped drinking with the help of God" is not true.
I am not going to repeat this, it should already be clear.