But Barbara, what's wrong with that?

If you went to your family doctor and he told you the same thing would that be more effective?

It's like a chain smoker going to the doctor and being told that he needs to stop smoking because of any number of health risks associated with smoking? So the smoker says, "nah, my doctor is stupid and brainwashed by all them other doctors. There's something very subtle and cultish about how they all say the same thing."

Were just telling the truth Barbara. :(



Colter

Me:

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I was told I had to do it (the steps)or die.
Even colter, the most vocal AA advocate here, confirms this.

colter:

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But Barbara, what's wrong with that?

If you went to your family doctor and he told you the same thing would that be more effective?

It's like a chain smoker going to the doctor and being told that he needs to stop smoking...

No, it's not like going to the doctor, not at all.
You see, my doctor has studied the biological sciences, for many long years at medical school, so that he is qualified to diagnose actual diseases, and his prescriptions are based on scientific study.

My doctor, none of my doctors, has ever, or is ever likely to, tell me that I need to "make myself of most use to God" to recover from an illness.

That is the difference between medical science and religion and AA.

If my doctor ignored medical evidence and standard medical procedure and prescribed instead a regimen of prayer as a cure, I could sue him for malpractice and win.

(I'm sorry, correct me if I'm mistaken, but isn't that why the Scientologists got sued?
Because they told members not to go to the doctor, and instead told them to rely upon them for a cure?)

Barbara. I hear your frustration. Please understand you are totally not alone in your feelings. There are many people out 'there' that feel the EXACT same as you. All any one needs to do is Google "cult" and "alcoholics anonymous" and see the many hundreds of websites that pop up to understand this. All you have to do is visit one of the online support groups for those people who are recoverying from 12 step progamming to see this. There is also some good discussion on FactNet regarding AA. It might be time to consider that you are probably not going to change the mind of the powers that be on this website. This doesn't mean you are wrong. It just might mean it has become more frustrating than its worth. Of course only you can know that

spinnerofthread:

Ineresting spinning.

However, that spin doesn't explain that the overwhelming consensus regarding AA, which is that it has helped people and continues to help people.

Frankly, I find the "cult" and "brainwashing" allegations not only without any meaningful proof or substance, but in a certain sense potentially destructive regarding both the issue of cults and brainwashing.

That is, by posting misleading information about AA and other 12-step programs being "brainwashing" "cults" on the Web, people may think that if AA is being labeled falsely as a "thought reform" "cult," maybe other groups like the Unification Church or Scientology that have been called are being labeled falsely too.

Frankly, I don't even think AA rates the label "controversial," because it doesn't generate the bad press that typically meets that criteria either.

And given the size of the Web and number of Web sites (millions), a few hundred pages put up by various people not happy with AA is neither convincing or compelling.

Your statement to barabara reads like--"When people don't agree with you it's time to go."

It is too "frustrating" to not be agreed with.

Now that's a mindset.

Thanks, spinner.
I'm here because I want to help the alcoholic who still suffers in AA.
Sooner or later the world will recognize the fact that there are those who are harmed by "the program".

The end result is, you either give in or leave AA.
If you tried to work the steps and became a "believer", you are afraid you will die.

A lot of ex-members are still alive, though, and kicking, and vocal.

barabara:

And that kind of post should be balanced against the many people helped by AA.

And the families that feel AA or Al-Anon helped them too.

My work during the 1980s included years spent on staff at a social service agency. There were alcoholics that came to the agency for help and we sponsored a support group, to some extent based upon the 12-step model.

It was very successful and the community appreciated it.

My work also included working with Jewish prisoners that were drug addicts, alcoholics etc. Many were helped by 12-step programs.

There should be some balance to your posts.

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barabara:

And that kind of post should be balanced against the many people helped by AA.

There should be some balance to your posts.

If what you are saying is that I am not being fair in my assessment of AA, then [b:0f3e16f8ba]your [/b:0f3e16f8ba]posts should be more balanced as well, and you should be willing to admit that there are many people who have been harmed by AA.

But you have basically invalidated any allegations of harm from AA that anyone here has claimed.

Maybe you aren't really telling me that [b:0f3e16f8ba]I [/b:0f3e16f8ba]need to post positive things about AA as well, but that is how it reads to me.

I have been willing to see some validity to [b:0f3e16f8ba]your[/b:0f3e16f8ba] view of AA, despite the fact that I have basically been called a liar for posting [b:0f3e16f8ba]mine[/b:0f3e16f8ba].

You have certainly proved yourself worthy of your reputation.

barabara:

I have never called you a "liar."

Nor have I attempted to negate your experience.

I have simply offered another view of AA. And it is a widely accepted view, which many people that know participants at AA share.

I have known people that not only have no belief in organized religion, but are also atheists, that have benefited from AA and praised it as a turning point regarding their alcoholism.

I don't think that AA is the only answer to alcoholism and recognize that many people find other alternatives that work for them and have known some of those folks too.

I don't agree at all with your use of the word "cult" to describe AA and as someone that deals with cults daily.

IMO AA also does not use cult-like techniques of thought reform.

On these two areas we disagree.

I, and others here, have gone into a great deal of detail about exactly how we feel some AA members were harmed, (in many cases the complaints center around being coerced, often deceptively, into adopting an alien spiritual belief system).

I know I was a lot more willing to see the "good" side of AA before I was accused of misrepresentation, having a grudge, and being part of the "secular revolt", and I don't think I ever called AA a cult until I was pushed past the point of annoyance by the insults of others here.

IMO, and experience, some thought reform techniques are used sometimes, not others. AA does not fit the cult mold, but nevertheless the indoctrination is damaging to some.

There was also no one thay can turn to to resolve the issues; even outside therapists were unwilling to adress the possibility that they are telling the truth about their confusion and hurt from what thay experienced in AA.

I am accustomed to having people disagree with me; perhaps you should direct your statements more broadly, as it seems to me that I have not been the only one getting my feathers ruffled here.