Question for Alcoholics Anonymous experts.
Posted by:
barabara
()
Date: August 17, 2006 08:51PM
Quote
upsidedownnewspaperQuote
barabara
upside down:Quote
You have mentioned supreme court rulings against forced participation in AA. Why haven't these rulings been upheld, do you know?
This question contains an stated assumption that the rulings have [b:fdeba56263]not[/b:fdeba56263] been upheld.
Do you have any evedence to suport this assumption, a link to individual court cases, for instance, or media coverage of statistics related to cour-ordering people to meetings?
On the basis of your two statements below, I assumed that despite a finding that court ordered attendance of 12-step programs was in violation of the establishment clause of the 1st amendment, citizens were nonetheless still being coerced by the courts to attend AA.Quote
barabara
Court ordered referrals to 12 step programs have been found to be in violation of the establishment clause of the 1st amendment.Quote
barabara
[This thread] is a discussion about [b:fdeba56263]coercion by the court system of citizens[/b:fdeba56263] in violation of their first amendment rights.
So my question, honestly and truly, was why are the courts still able to "coerce" people into attendance of AA despite a finding...
Perhaps it was not a supreme court finding?
This was posted about 2 pages back:
[www.law.duke.edu]
Quote
For the Warner III and O'Connor courts, the presence or absence of choice between secular and religiously-oriented self-help groups was decisive.
Therefore, a probation referral system that offered both secular and religiously-oriented rehabilitation programs to probationers might not violate the Establishment Clause if the overall system were neutral.
Many probation referral systems, however, either do not provide a secular option, or, if they do, they do not endorse it as strongly in word and deed as they support the nonsecular program (AA).
The courts still offer AA, and, from what I have read, it is acceptable to do so if secular alternatives are also an option.
But, as the above passage states,
Quote
Many probation referral systems, however, either do not provide a secular option, or, if they do, they do not endorse it as strongly in word and deed as they support the nonsecular program
If this were the case, if the probationer was to sue, he would probably, but not necessarily, win.
Justice, as goes the saying, can be blind. (Even thieves and killers get off sometimes, so we can hardly expect absolute adherence to the statutes in a civil liberties case. If the probationer was not satisfied with the ruling, he would then be allowed an appeal to a superior court, probably. And so on...)
I would suggest reading the linked article in the Duke Law Journal if interested.
Question for Alcoholics Anonymous experts.
Posted by:
Colter
()
Date: August 17, 2006 09:13PM
Colters opinion:
Compulsive drinking is only a symptom of what is wrong with alcoholics. Any program which seeks to separate the alcoholic from personal responsibility for his or her behavior is doomed to fail or at best produce "dry drunks" who while technically aren't drinking exhibit all the personality traits of an active alcoholic.
What is the truth? The truth is that WE are the problem and AA's technique for addressing that reality allows the individual to come to an understanding of that very truth without the customary "preaching" and "shaming".
The other harsh reality is that while many are called to AA for the gift of freedom, few choose.
The primary problem with the alcoholic is his or her inability to have healthy relationships with other people.
Alcoholics have a "[b:f9a85c0f18]control problem[/b:f9a85c0f18]". We find in alcohol the ability to control how we feel and think without actually achieving legitimate personality growth. Alcohol does for us what we cannot ....or WILL NOT do for ourselves.
Alcoholics may have bright minds intellectually, we may be accomplished in academics or business but inwardly we are emotionally immature.
What happens to us in AA is we begin to grow up emotionally via ego deflation and taking responsibility for our past and present behavior. We stop blameing others.
It is an error to separate personality growth from social values and morality, from how we[i:f9a85c0f18] relate[/i:f9a85c0f18] to others.
From the Book Alcoholics Anonymous:
[b:f9a85c0f18]How It Works[/size:f9a85c0f18] [/b:f9a85c0f18]
[b:f9a85c0f18]RARELY HAVE[/b:f9a85c0f18] we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty. Their chances are less than average.[u:f9a85c0f18] There are those, too, who suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders, but many of them do recover if they have the capacity to be honest. [/u:f9a85c0f18]
Our stories disclose in a general way what we used to be like, what happened, and what we are like now. If you have decided you want what we have and are willing to go to any length to get it--then you are ready to take certain steps.
[u:f9a85c0f18] At some of these we balked. We thought we could find an easier, softer way. But we could not. [/u:f9a85c0f18]With all the earnestness at our command, we beg of you to be fearless and thorough from the very start. Some of us have tried to hold on to our old ideas and the result was nil until we let go absolutely.
Remember that we deal with alcohol--[u:f9a85c0f18]cunning, baf-
fling, powerful! [/u:f9a85c0f18]Without help it is too much for us. But there is One who has all power--that One is God. May you find Him now!
Half measures availed us nothing. We stood at the[b:f9a85c0f18] turning point[/b:f9a85c0f18]. we asked His protection and care with [b:f9a85c0f18]complete[/b:f9a85c0f18] abandon.
Colter
Compulsive drinking is only a symptom of what is wrong with alcoholics. Any program which seeks to separate the alcoholic from personal responsibility for his or her behavior is doomed to fail or at best produce "dry drunks" who while technically aren't drinking exhibit all the personality traits of an active alcoholic.
What is the truth? The truth is that WE are the problem and AA's technique for addressing that reality allows the individual to come to an understanding of that very truth without the customary "preaching" and "shaming".
The other harsh reality is that while many are called to AA for the gift of freedom, few choose.
The primary problem with the alcoholic is his or her inability to have healthy relationships with other people.
Alcoholics have a "[b:f9a85c0f18]control problem[/b:f9a85c0f18]". We find in alcohol the ability to control how we feel and think without actually achieving legitimate personality growth. Alcohol does for us what we cannot ....or WILL NOT do for ourselves.
Alcoholics may have bright minds intellectually, we may be accomplished in academics or business but inwardly we are emotionally immature.
What happens to us in AA is we begin to grow up emotionally via ego deflation and taking responsibility for our past and present behavior. We stop blameing others.
It is an error to separate personality growth from social values and morality, from how we[i:f9a85c0f18] relate[/i:f9a85c0f18] to others.
From the Book Alcoholics Anonymous:
[b:f9a85c0f18]How It Works[/size:f9a85c0f18] [/b:f9a85c0f18]
[b:f9a85c0f18]RARELY HAVE[/b:f9a85c0f18] we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty. Their chances are less than average.[u:f9a85c0f18] There are those, too, who suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders, but many of them do recover if they have the capacity to be honest. [/u:f9a85c0f18]
Our stories disclose in a general way what we used to be like, what happened, and what we are like now. If you have decided you want what we have and are willing to go to any length to get it--then you are ready to take certain steps.
[u:f9a85c0f18] At some of these we balked. We thought we could find an easier, softer way. But we could not. [/u:f9a85c0f18]With all the earnestness at our command, we beg of you to be fearless and thorough from the very start. Some of us have tried to hold on to our old ideas and the result was nil until we let go absolutely.
Remember that we deal with alcohol--[u:f9a85c0f18]cunning, baf-
fling, powerful! [/u:f9a85c0f18]Without help it is too much for us. But there is One who has all power--that One is God. May you find Him now!
Half measures availed us nothing. We stood at the[b:f9a85c0f18] turning point[/b:f9a85c0f18]. we asked His protection and care with [b:f9a85c0f18]complete[/b:f9a85c0f18] abandon.
Colter
Question for Alcoholics Anonymous experts.
Posted by:
barabara
()
Date: August 20, 2006 03:51AM
rrmoderator wrote, on another thread:
I took this review from the Amazon page:
Sounds like a [b:ae3789ae0e]behavioral[/b:ae3789ae0e] model is used instead.
____________________________________________________________
Below is the syllabus for a university-level course in treatment of addiction:
[b:ae3789ae0e]Could this be indicative of the way recovery is being taught in our institutions of higher learning, state and federally funded, as you will note; not a private college)?[/b:ae3789ae0e]
[www.goou.ou.edu]
[b:ae3789ae0e]A course syllabus from the University of Oklahoma:[/b:ae3789ae0e]
The questions asked in the course are identical to the questions presented by members of this forum[/color:ae3789ae0e], with the one obvious difference being that, in the course syllabus, the question of whether or not AA is a cult does not arise.[/b:ae3789ae0e]
At first reading, this course seems to address the potential problems inherent in the "disease model" of addiction. [b:ae3789ae0e]A good thing.[/b:ae3789ae0e]
But, as the astute reader will note, [b:ae3789ae0e]despite the fact that the course addresses these problems, it would appear to center entirely around analysis of programs adhering to the disease model[/b:ae3789ae0e], which would mean faith-based programs like AA and NA, to [b:ae3789ae0e]the exclusion of other methods of treatment[/b:ae3789ae0e].
I do note, and appreciate the irony of, the fact that [b:ae3789ae0e]the course uses as a primary textbook the writings of Stanton Peele[/b:ae3789ae0e], whom rrmoderator, from his responses here, does not consider to make a [b:ae3789ae0e]compelling argument for revision of present day rehabilitation models[/b:ae3789ae0e].
If this course is representative of how universities are addressing the developement of new and innovative methods of addiction rehabilitation, it is probably only [b:ae3789ae0e]a matter of time before the 12 step stranglehold on the recovery industry is loosened[/b:ae3789ae0e]
.
From what I have seen, historically, the public usually takes a little while to catch up with academia.
[b:ae3789ae0e]One can only hope, for the sake of the addicted masses, that this will be the case.[/b:ae3789ae0e]
One can also attempt to "aid the cause", if so inclined.
Quote
An interesting book to read about this would be...
Craving for Ecstasy : How Our Passions Become Addictions and What We Can Do About Them by Harvey Milkman, Stanley Sunderwirth
See [www.amazon.com]
I took this review from the Amazon page:
Doesn't sound like the "[b:ae3789ae0e]disease model[/b:ae3789ae0e]" of addiction is the focus of this book, which could be a good thing.Quote
[b:ae3789ae0e]Editorial Reviews[/b:ae3789ae0e]
It is possible to become addicted to what may seem a harmless pleasure such as sex, jogging, watching television, or eating. In this powerful book?written in easy-to-understand language?two scientific researchers, Harvey Milkman and Stanley Sunderwirth, explain the biology, chemistry, and psychology of the universal desire for pleasure and escape. For example, they reveal how the brain produces mind-altering?substances and what the skydiver has in common with the heroin addict.
Sounds like a [b:ae3789ae0e]behavioral[/b:ae3789ae0e] model is used instead.
____________________________________________________________
Below is the syllabus for a university-level course in treatment of addiction:
[b:ae3789ae0e]Could this be indicative of the way recovery is being taught in our institutions of higher learning, state and federally funded, as you will note; not a private college)?[/b:ae3789ae0e]
[www.goou.ou.edu]
[b:ae3789ae0e]A course syllabus from the University of Oklahoma:[/b:ae3789ae0e]
[b:ae3789ae0e]Note:Quote
[b:ae3789ae0e]Course Description: [/b:ae3789ae0e]
This course provides foundational knowledge for counseling chemically dependent
persons. Students will learn working definitions of substance abuse and will be introduced to intervention,
assessment, and treatment strategies. [b:ae3789ae0e]Several models of substance abuse are presented.[/b:ae3789ae0e]
[b:ae3789ae0e]Course Objectives:[/b:ae3789ae0e]
Upon completion of the course, students should:
1. understand fundamental concepts and models of chemical dependency and substance abuse;
2. identify[b:ae3789ae0e] major theories of alcoholism and other chemical dependency[/b:ae3789ae0e];
3. comprehend initial assessments of an individual experiencing chemical dependency problems;
4. develop general understanding of intervention strategies with chemical dependency;
5. recognize components of treatment of chemical dependency counseling; and
6. [b:ae3789ae0e]understand essential concepts of treatment of special populations of chemically dependent persons[/b:ae3789ae0e]
[b:ae3789ae0e]Textbook(s) and Instructional Materials:[/b:ae3789ae0e]
03 [b:ae3789ae0e]Peele, Stanton[/color:ae3789ae0e][/b:ae3789ae0e] (1999). The diseasing of America: How we allowed recovery zealots and the
treatment industry to convince us we are out of control.
04 Milkman, Harvey & Sunderwirth, Stanley (1998). [b:ae3789ae0e]Craving for ecstasy[/color:ae3789ae0e]: How our passions become addictions and what we can do about them[/b:ae3789ae0e].
05 Milam, James R. & Ketcham, Katherine (1984) Under the influence: A guide to the myths and realities of alcoholism (forward by Mel Schulstad).
[b:ae3789ae0e]Course Objectives:[/b:ae3789ae0e]
The objectives of this Companion Directed Reading Course are to:
1. enhance student knowledge of addictive disorders and introduce [b:ae3789ae0e]controversies[/color:ae3789ae0e] in theories of addictions;[/b:ae3789ae0e]
2. assist students in clarifying their own views on addictions; and
3. enhance critical thinking, writing abilities, and written expression of ideas.
[b:ae3789ae0e]Assignment: [/b:ae3789ae0e]
A directed readings paper with two sections is required, based on the readings
The second section allows students to explore and articulate their own “philosophy” or theory of addiction
1.[b:ae3789ae0e] Do you accept the disease concept of addiction:[/b:ae3789ae0e] why, why not, or to what extent? On what sources and information do you base your opinion or viewpoint?
2. What are the relative merits and limitations of the disease concept[/color:ae3789ae0e] of chemical dependency? [b:ae3789ae0e]Is the disease model effective in encouraging persons to seek treatment[/b:ae3789ae0e]?
3. [b:ae3789ae0e]Does the use of a disease model of addiction encourage irresponsibility and lead addicted persons to “blame” their behavior on an addiction[/b:ae3789ae0e]? Does the use of a disease model allow addicted persons to present themselves as helpless, weak, or as victims?
4. What are the ethical issues[/color:ae3789ae0e] involved in addiction and are these issues skirted by use of the disease model? Should addicted persons be “excused” for engaging in unethical, immoral, or illegal behavior on the basis of the fact that they were addicted? [b:ae3789ae0e]How should personal responsibility be maintained, if the disease concept is accepted[/b:ae3789ae0e]?
.
5. [b:ae3789ae0e]Is the reliance on the disease concept somewhat of a “slippery slope” [/color:ae3789ae0e]so far as personal responsibility, self-determination, and personal morality are concerned[/b:ae3789ae0e]? How can issues of [b:ae3789ae0e]personal responsibility, personal self-determination, and morality[/color:ae3789ae0e] be addressed if the disease concept[/color:ae3789ae0e] is used[/b:ae3789ae0e]?
The questions asked in the course are identical to the questions presented by members of this forum[/color:ae3789ae0e], with the one obvious difference being that, in the course syllabus, the question of whether or not AA is a cult does not arise.[/b:ae3789ae0e]
At first reading, this course seems to address the potential problems inherent in the "disease model" of addiction. [b:ae3789ae0e]A good thing.[/b:ae3789ae0e]
But, as the astute reader will note, [b:ae3789ae0e]despite the fact that the course addresses these problems, it would appear to center entirely around analysis of programs adhering to the disease model[/b:ae3789ae0e], which would mean faith-based programs like AA and NA, to [b:ae3789ae0e]the exclusion of other methods of treatment[/b:ae3789ae0e].
I do note, and appreciate the irony of, the fact that [b:ae3789ae0e]the course uses as a primary textbook the writings of Stanton Peele[/b:ae3789ae0e], whom rrmoderator, from his responses here, does not consider to make a [b:ae3789ae0e]compelling argument for revision of present day rehabilitation models[/b:ae3789ae0e].
If this course is representative of how universities are addressing the developement of new and innovative methods of addiction rehabilitation, it is probably only [b:ae3789ae0e]a matter of time before the 12 step stranglehold on the recovery industry is loosened[/b:ae3789ae0e]
.
From what I have seen, historically, the public usually takes a little while to catch up with academia.
[b:ae3789ae0e]One can only hope, for the sake of the addicted masses, that this will be the case.[/b:ae3789ae0e]
One can also attempt to "aid the cause", if so inclined.
Question for Alcoholics Anonymous experts.
Posted by:
Colter
()
Date: August 21, 2006 09:01PM
Quote
From what I have seen, historically, the public usually takes a little while to catch up with academia.
careful, a line like that could cause a person to loose their breakfast!
I noticed an odd sort of thing when I first got sober. Their was a professor of psychology in AA in my area. He had written a number of books on the mind and enjoyed high regard around the country yet.......he could not stay sober himself.
"Self knowledge avails us nothing".
Both spiritualists and scientists are to proud to get in bed with one another, they are both to dogmatic. The problem with academia and AA is that they have no means of interphasing with our spiritual approach.
As for AA and our spiritual solution we haven't seen anything worthy of risking our sobriety over coming out of the secular crowd.
I still maintain that the [i:a09e1de694]spiritual deformity[/i:a09e1de694] within the addictive person supersedes and precedes the physiological phenomenon of craving.
Colter
Question for Alcoholics Anonymous experts.
Posted by:
barabara
()
Date: August 22, 2006 12:49AM
Quote
[b:13bd5c710c]careful, a line like that could cause a person to loose their breakfast!
[/b:13bd5c710c]
I noticed an odd sort of thing when I first got sober. Their was a professor of psychology in AA in my area. He had written a number of books on the mind and enjoyed high regard around the country yet.......he could not stay sober himself.
"Self knowledge avails us nothing".
Both spiritualists and scientists are to proud to get in bed with one another, they are both to dogmatic. The problem with academia and AA is that they have no means of interphasing with our spiritual approach.
As for AA and our spiritual solution we haven't seen anything worthy of risking our sobriety over coming out of the secular crowd.
I still maintain that the spiritual deformity within the addictive person supersedes and precedes the physiological phenomenon of craving.
Colter
Yes, and there are also a heck of a lot of ignorant. illiterate and under-endowed (intellectually speaking) people who can't stay sober, either!
It has occurred to me that AA's animosity towards the institutes of higher learning may be due to the [b:13bd5c710c]alcoholic's fondness for priding himself on being "self-educated".
[/b:13bd5c710c]Unfortunately, it's often an ill-founded source of pride.
I'm tired of all this stupid banter about irrelevant details.
[b:13bd5c710c]Sending people off to some cockamamie religious organization[/b:13bd5c710c], especially[b:13bd5c710c] against their will[/b:13bd5c710c], to cure an [b:13bd5c710c]imaginary[/b:13bd5c710c] disease is[b:13bd5c710c] just plain wrong,[/b:13bd5c710c] and I think anyone who has the facts knows it.
The courts and the shrinks who do it are[b:13bd5c710c] just plain wrong.[/b:13bd5c710c]
Of course AA members disagree, they take it personal if anyone says that their chosen (AA) religion is not perfect.
But that's not the point is it?
[b:13bd5c710c]Trying to shove religion down another person's throat [/b:13bd5c710c]may net you a convert here or there, but for the most part it just makes people want to run away from you.
Or "lose their breakfast".
[b:13bd5c710c]Or fight you tooth and nail.[/b:13bd5c710c]
[b:13bd5c710c]Or foment a rebellion[/b:13bd5c710c], (think American revolution and one reason we broke from Britain, if you're missing the allusion).
[b:13bd5c710c]It's just plain wrong.[/b:13bd5c710c]
Yeah, your post did make me wish I had a barf-bag, kind of like the rest of this thread.
ps: (if you feel like arguing sny of the points here, don't bother; rrmoderator claims he is weary of repetition, and I've already provided supportin evidence, adnauseum, for each statement I made here. From now on I will refer back to previous posts, rather than add new supporting evidence)
Question for Alcoholics Anonymous experts.
Posted by:
Colter
()
Date: August 22, 2006 02:04AM
Quote
Yes, and there are also a heck of a lot of ignorant. illiterate and under-endowed (intellectually speaking) people who can't stay sober, either!
All are equal in AA and generally the intellectually self sufficient people have a more difficult time getting sober.
Quote
Sending people off to some cockamamie religious organization, especially against their will, to cure an imaginary disease is just plain wrong, and I think anyone who has the facts knows it.
I think this is intended to be provocative.
If alcoholism is not a disease then that's all the more reason the solution is not medical......that may be why AA works.
Colter
Question for Alcoholics Anonymous experts.
Posted by:
barabara
()
Date: August 22, 2006 02:55AM
ColterQuote
If alcoholism is not a disease then that's all the more reason the solution is not medical......that may be why AA works.
Whatever the cause of alcoholism, religion is the answer only for the rare few, which is one reason we have been having this discussion.
Force-fed religious indoctrination rarely works, hence the low rate of recovery, [b:932b714cf1]in[/b:932b714cf1] as without AA.
The figures do [b:932b714cf1]not[/b:932b714cf1] support the premise that AA "works".
Force-fed religion just pisses people off.
It's [b:932b714cf1]just wrong[/b:932b714cf1] to force your religion on others.
That's why some of us advocate a wider diversity of approaches to recovery;
to help the alcoholic who still suffers.
Question for Alcoholics Anonymous experts.
Posted by:
kath
()
Date: August 22, 2006 04:56AM
Quote
Colter
I still maintain that the [i:9abae92fc7]spiritual deformity[/i:9abae92fc7] within the addictive person supersedes and precedes the physiological phenomenon of craving.
Well that sounds really [i:9abae92fc7]nice.[/i:9abae92fc7]
We will just have to agree to disagree but if these are AA's best arguments I can see that a lot of people would find it destructive to be called 'spritually deformed' etc.
Love
Kath
Question for Alcoholics Anonymous experts.
Posted by:
Colter
()
Date: August 22, 2006 07:45AM
Quote
kathQuote
Colter
I still maintain that the [i:1bb308fb3d]spiritual deformity[/i:1bb308fb3d] within the addictive person supersedes and precedes the physiological phenomenon of craving.
Well that sounds really [i:1bb308fb3d]nice.[/i:1bb308fb3d]
We will just have to agree to disagree but if these are AA's best arguments I can see that a lot of people would find it destructive to be called 'spritually deformed' etc.
Love
Kath
Exactly! we call that deformity[i:1bb308fb3d] pride[/i:1bb308fb3d].
Pride is the "cheif block to true progress", from it stem all other forms of spiritual sickness.
Colter
Question for Alcoholics Anonymous experts.
Posted by:
barabara
()
Date: August 22, 2006 08:02AM
Colter,
I'm sure you're a sweetheart, and I think you mean well, but there [b:3b0ab36c14]is[/b:3b0ab36c14] room for other treatment methods.
What would you prefer?
Would you like to have AA be the sole accessible method, so that only those who can accept religious conversion can benefit from treatment?
Or do you want to help the alcoholic who stills suffers? [b:3b0ab36c14]All[/b:3b0ab36c14] of them, not just the ones who agree with your religious beliefs.
Wouldn't it be preferable that a variety of treatment programs were available, just on the off-chance that somebody who just couldn't "get with the program" in AA might have a fighting chance to receive and benefit from treatment?
Would you really like to prevent that from happening?
I'm sure you're a sweetheart, and I think you mean well, but there [b:3b0ab36c14]is[/b:3b0ab36c14] room for other treatment methods.
What would you prefer?
Would you like to have AA be the sole accessible method, so that only those who can accept religious conversion can benefit from treatment?
Or do you want to help the alcoholic who stills suffers? [b:3b0ab36c14]All[/b:3b0ab36c14] of them, not just the ones who agree with your religious beliefs.
Wouldn't it be preferable that a variety of treatment programs were available, just on the off-chance that somebody who just couldn't "get with the program" in AA might have a fighting chance to receive and benefit from treatment?
Would you really like to prevent that from happening?
Sorry, you can't reply to this topic. It has been closed.