barabra:

There is no contradiction here.

AA is not "therapy" or an LGAT, it's essentially a support group.

It is not comparable to LGATs like Landmark, Sterling or NXIVM.

There is no leader or elite group of leaders seeking to make money from controlling people.

The complaints just are not coming in to substantiate your position. That's a fact you seem to have a problem dealing with.

Sorry.

Again, the objection some seem to have over the "higher power" issue has been noted, but that's not a "cult" or "cult-like" isse. Instead, if people don't find that aspect of AA positive they can move on to another support group.

Many feel that because that power is not defined they can work around it.

I have met a few atheists that apparently worked this out and attended AA meetings.

There are some who simply can't afford a clinical therapist or specialized treatment through a hospital.

AA offers an alternative for free.

Many people seem to like AA and have friends that have benefited from it. Others don't like AA and don't wish to be involved.

There seems to be room in the world for both.

Again, if the complaints begin to flow to support your contentions I remain open to hearing them out and considering new information.

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Again, if the complaints begin to flow to support your contentions I remain open to hearing them out and considering new information.

[b:2ea5d1a5d3]Do complaints only count if they come to you accompanied by a request for your professional services?[/b:2ea5d1a5d3]

I really don't see how you can insist that you have recieved no complaints.
It seems to me that several people her have been doing so repeatedly, and in great detail.

barabra:

We have been over this before.

No complaints have come in other than posts on the message board.

rrmoderator:
Please excuse me if you don't like being questioned about this, but can you please explain some things AA, which you say is merely a support group.

[board.culteducation.com]

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One man's analysis of the deceptive indoctrination techniques used by the religious organization of AA:
(It's long, but it's vastly shorter than the original, focusing on the main points).

I posted a long quote regarding excerpts from the Big Book.
I could not find the number of this post, so I am adding a quote from it in order that you know which post, specifically, I am asking about.

[b:921465d0d3]I was told repeatedly, by AA members, that the Big Book is the program of AA.[/b:921465d0d3]

Can you resolve this apparent contradiction for me;
Is AA a program based on the Big Book, written by Bill Wilson, or is it just a support group where members sit at meetings and discuss ways to remain sober?

Does what is written in the Big Book have any relevance to recovery in AA, in your opinion?

Do you not find many of these blatantly religious quotes from the Big Book peculiar?
Don't you find it odd that the Big Book recommends disguising the religious nature of the program during 12 step work, and introducing the religious requirements later, after the newcomer has become more at ease with the fellowship?

[b:921465d0d3]I wan to emphasize, once again, that I am not accusing AA of being a cult.
I am trying to understand a viewpoint alien to my own.[/b:921465d0d3]

barabra:

We have been over this again, and again and again.

Look back over other posts.

You may not have liked the answer, but there were answers previously given repeatedly.

question retracted

I dont think there's any serious question about AA's cult status. According to the definitions linked to on page 3 of this thread, a cult is "4. a system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator". As AA define alcoholism as a disease, they are a cult on their own terms.
All cults have both supporters and detractors, so there is nothing special about AA from this angle either.
I dont think financial exploitation is necessary for a cult to be considered malign, Manson's Family is an obvious example, a cult normally gains notoriety when it has brushes with the law, but whatever the reason for these contacts with the law, be they financial, sexual or physically injurious, they are consequences of the cult nature of the organisation, they are not features that define the organisation as a cult.
Cults operate by inducing an 'us and them' mentality, in their members, in relation to society at large, this necessarily has deleterious consequences for the general socialisation of members. I find it very odd that the courts support such a system, unless they have a policy of removing alcoholics from society and isolating them in the seperate cult environment.

Most cults that are centered around the personality or leadership of an individual dissolve after that individual dies. In order for spiritual movements or religions to live on they must be pregnant with enough vital living truth to immortalize them. With Buddhism it was Gautama Siddhartha, Islam it was Mohamed and Christianity Jesus. All of these contained spiritual content adiquate to carry them forward in the fellowships that grew up after their charismatic leaders died.

The argument that AA is a cult centered around the person of Bill Wilson may have carried more weight when Bill was alive. There was great concern about what would happen with AA after it's patriarch died. What immortalized AA was first the 12 steps but then the 12 traditions are what has kept it free from the pitfalls of ecclesiastical authority (man).....at least up until this point. See also the 12 concepts of world service.

In 1955 Bill was able to take the bold step of letting AA go, giving it up to God and the holy sea of derelict drunks. :roll:


Colter

[www.alcoholics-anonymous.org]
AA at a glance says that the steps "suggest ideas and actions that can guide alcoholics toward happy and healthy lives".
[www.alcoholics-anonymous.org]

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What Does A.A. Do??1. A.A. members share their experience with anyone seeking help with a drinking problem; they give person-to-person service or "sponsorship" to the alcoholic coming to A.A. from any source.
2. The A.A. program, set forth in our Twelve Steps, offers the alcoholic a way to develop a satisfying life without alcohol.
3. This program is discussed at A.A. group meetings.

The official position of AA, taken from the AA website, is that[b:7b380d22d6] the AA program is the steps.
[/b:7b380d22d6]
Following a strict regimen for finding and pleasing God is not the same as joining a "support group" for help with a drinking problem.

AA also says that the steps are just suggestions, but if an AA member doesn't "work the steps", he hasn't really joined AA, has he?

We all know that the steps say things like "give your will and life over to god", "admit to God and another human being the exact nature of" your character defects, and "help carry this message to others".

If you attempt to do these things and become emotionally disturbed from doing so, it isn't the members of AA who have harmed you; it is the program of AA that has harmed you.

Whether or not it is possible to become confused or emotionally distressed from attempting to work the steps is a matter of opinion.
I think it is. I've seen it. (It's even discussed in the Big Book.)

If you are told what to do by a sponsor, (and AA says that sponsorship is one of the services its members offer), and suffer emotional damage from attempting to do what you are told, you have suffered at the hands of an individual, but the sponsorship has been condoned by AA, therefore AA should be required, on some level, to take responsibility for the behavior of its members.

I see AA as being much more than a mere "support group", no matter what anyone else thinks.

But I suppose [b:7b380d22d6]AA might be legitimately considered a support group [/b:7b380d22d6]dedicated to"providing relevant information, relating personal experiences, listening to others' experiences, providing sympathetic understanding and establishing social networks"[b:7b380d22d6] for the purpose of helping its members to find and please God[/b:7b380d22d6].

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Our real purpose is to fit ourselves to be of maximum service to God...

(from the Big Book)

[b:7b380d22d6]The program of AA [/b:7b380d22d6]is not really a "support group" for people who [b:7b380d22d6]just want help with a drinking problem[/b:7b380d22d6] at all.

I think that the real objection that most disgruntled members have to AA [b:7b380d22d6]is not simply that it is a "spiritual" program[/b:7b380d22d6], but that they did not appreciate being told, in essense, (by a therapist, the courts, or an organization they went to because they were falsely informed that it was a "support group to help them quit drinking"),[b:7b380d22d6] that they had a morally deficient character[/b:7b380d22d6], and would not be able to get over what they are convinced is a physical or psychological problem, [b:7b380d22d6]unless they adopt someone else's spiritual belief system, (AA's), and follow the religious practices of prayer and confession to God.
[/b:7b380d22d6]
[b:7b380d22d6]To say that they/we object to the "spiritual side" of AA is a gross oversimplification which negates then importance of freedom of thought.[/b:7b380d22d6]

(wikipedia definition of support group)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Support_groups

Scientology and the hari krishnas seem to survive just fine with dead or no leaders.