Quote
ughaibu
Colter: Intoxication and addiction are two quite different things.

Oh I agree, but when a judge is looking at a defendant that has a history of DUI's, domestic violence, disorderly conduct and such then one can appreciate that the judge suspects that (maybe) the person has an addiction problem which underlies his behavieral issues.

I know of numerous people who came to AA in such a way and sosiety is the better for it where as a stint in Jail would have only delayed a threat to society.

I'll say it again, I'm not a big advocate of court orderd AA, I thinks that it's [i:78826e6261]unnatural [/i:78826e6261]but seeds do get planted. In AA we are put is an aquard position when such an individual shows up. We would not want to turn someone away from AA because of some biass on our part. We might ruin a chance to help at a later time so we let them do as they wish.

The legalities are for the courts to decide, AA has no opinion on legal issues.

Colter

colter:

Quote

I'll say it again, I'm not a big advocate of court orderd AA, I thinks that it's unnatural but seeds do get planted.[b:96d912b509] In AA we are put is an aquard position when such an individual shows up[/b:96d912b509]. We would not want to turn someone away from AA because of some biass on our part. We might ruin a chance to help at a later time so we let them do as they wish.

My point is, and has been all along, that AA[b:96d912b509] deliberately seeks[/b:96d912b509] attendees from court referrals, in spite of [b:96d912b509]stating, in literature, on the websites, and at meetings, that a desire to quit drinking is the only requirement for membership[/b:96d912b509].

These two actions are [b:96d912b509]contradictory[/b:96d912b509] and denote a definite[b:96d912b509] hypocracy [/b:96d912b509]on the part of the organization of AA.

I'm sure that trying to explain this contradictiory behavior is [b:96d912b509]awkward[/b:96d912b509], indeed.

(Not even to mention the legalities involved.)

Quote
barabara
My point is, and has been all along, that AA[b:95e233e1f4] deliberately seeks[/b:95e233e1f4] attendees from court referrals, in spite of [b:95e233e1f4]stating, in literature, on the websites, and at meetings, that a desire to quit drinking is the only requirement for membership[/b:95e233e1f4].

These two actions are [b:95e233e1f4]contradictory[/b:95e233e1f4] and denote a definite[b:95e233e1f4] hypocracy [/b:95e233e1f4]on the part of the organization of AA.

I'm sure that trying to explain this contradictiory behavior is [b:95e233e1f4]awkward[/b:95e233e1f4], indeed.

(Not even to mention the legalities involved.)

Quote
barabara
Wouldn't promotional movies intended for distribution to the medical community and correctional institutions and "an informational media pre-
sentation introducing A.A. to same " constitute "promotion", under any definition?
This is just an example of self-serving AA double-talk, like the use of "spiritual, not religious".

I'm not sure what you have outlined in the other thread is necessarily "promotion". Might it just be "providing information"? As a means of increasing the transparency of the organisation, for example?

The flipside seems to be to not provide information to professionals and treatment facilities and render their referrals to the AA program "blind" and so even more controversial.

upsidedownnewspaper:

Quote

I'm not sure what you have outlined in the other thread is necessarily "promotion". Might it just be "providing information"? As a means of increasing the transparency of the organisation, for example?

The flipside seems to be to not provide information to professionals and treatment facilities and render their referrals to the AA program "blind" and so even more controversial.

News and Notes from the General Service Office of A.A.®
Vol. 52, No.3 June-July 2006
www.aa.org

Quote

The purpose of the
Treatment Facilities assignment is to share
experience and information with committees
that carry the A.A. message into a variety of
treatment settings.

Now, we can hash over exactly what this statement means if you like, and decide whether or not it constitutes attraction or promotion.

I like the Oxford American Dictionary definitions:

[b:0f8c775b92]attraction:[/b:0f8c775b92]
the action or power of evoking interest, pleasure, or liking for someone or something

[b:0f8c775b92]promotion:[/b:0f8c775b92]
activity that supports or provides active encouragement for the furtherance of a cause, venture, or aim.

I feel that, as AA has "[b:0f8c775b92]committees that carry the A.A. message into a variety of treatment settings"[/b:0f8c775b92], as opposed to letting treatment centers come to AA, promotion is indeed the correct word.

But the problem is not really whether or not AA attracts or promotes; the problem is the lack of information about secular alternatives to the faith-based, "spiritual", or shall we say "religious", models for recovery.

This leads to serious "risks" for those seeking recovery who are:
1. Dually diagnosed
2. Incorrectly diagnosed
3. Incapable of or unwilling to embrace "faith healing" as a "cure" for their addiction
[b:0f8c775b92]
Admonishments made to someone who is suffering from a mental or physical ailment to "work the steps" and "let go and let God" and "surrender" are probably valueless at best, and may be extremely destructive to that individual, as the examples I, (and others here and elsewhere), have given illustrate.[/b:0f8c775b92]

Quote
barabara
colter:

Quote

I'll say it again, I'm not a big advocate of court orderd AA, I thinks that it's unnatural but seeds do get planted.[b:fdabb533c5] In AA we are put is an aquard position when such an individual shows up[/b:fdabb533c5]. We would not want to turn someone away from AA because of some biass on our part. We might ruin a chance to help at a later time so we let them do as they wish.

My point is, and has been all along, that AA[b:fdabb533c5] deliberately seeks[/b:fdabb533c5] attendees from court referrals, in spite of [b:fdabb533c5]stating, in literature, on the websites, and at meetings, that a desire to quit drinking is the only requirement for membership[/b:fdabb533c5].

And you are basing this point on the misquoted and out-of-context statement:

Quote
barabara

Quote

The purpose of the
Treatment Facilities assignment is to share
experience and information with committees
that carry the A.A. message into a variety of
treatment settings.

These two actions are [b:fdabb533c5]contradictory[/b:fdabb533c5] and denote a definite[b:fdabb533c5] hypocracy [/b:fdabb533c5]on the part of the organization of AA.

I'm sure that trying to explain this contradictiory behavior is [b:fdabb533c5]awkward[/b:fdabb533c5], indeed.

(Not even to mention the legalities involved.)

Quote
barabara
Now, we can hash over exactly what this statement means if you like, and decide whether or not it constitutes attraction or promotion.

"Bridging the gap" is what you are referring to and we will need to hash over exactly what this statement means given that you are misquoting and taking out of context, either carelessly or deliberately, parts of AA literature.

"Bridging the gap" is when AA members take the AA message [b:fdabb533c5]of recovery [/b:fdabb533c5] into a facility in which there already exists alcoholics participating in AA, participation which has arisen only after initial contact has been made to AA by the facility in question.

The purpose of taking the message of recovery to the facility being to "bridge the gap" between referred AA participation by the facility and outside, voluntary participation in AA by the individual.

Here, from the AA guidelines, again, is a list of what AA does not do.

Quote

A.A. does not:

[b:fdabb533c5]1. Furnish initial motivation for alcoholics to recover

2. Solicit members[/b:fdabb533c5]

3. Engage in or sponsor research

4. Keep attendance records or case histories

5. Join “councils” of social agencies

6. Follow up or try to control its members

7. Make medical or psychological diagnoses or prognoses

8. Provide drying-out or nursing services, hospitalization, drugs, or any medical or psychiatric treatment

9. Offer religious services

10. Engage in education about alcohol

11. Provide housing, food, clothing, jobs, money, or any other welfare or social services

12. Provide domestic or vocational counseling

13. Accept any money for its services, or any contributions from non-A.A. sources

14. Provide letters of reference to parole boards, lawyers, court officials, social agencies, employers, etc.

Regarding members of AA who are referred by Court programs and Treatment facilities:

Quote

Members From Court Programs and Treatment Facilities
In recent years, A.A. groups have welcomed many new members from court programs and treatment facilities. Some have come to A.A. voluntarily; others, under a degree of pressure. In our pamphlet “How A.A. Members Cooperate,” the following appears:

We cannot discriminate against any prospective A.A. member, even if he or she comes to us under pressure from a court, an employer, or any other agency.

Although the strength of our program lies in the voluntary nature of membership in A.A., many of us first attended meetings because we were forced to, either by someone else or by inner discomfort. But continual exposure to A.A. educated us to the true nature of the illness.... Who made the referral to A.A. is not what A.A. is interested in. It is the problem drinker who is our concern.... We cannot predict who will recover, nor have we the authority to decide how recovery should be sought by any other alcoholic.

And again, what barabara wrote, incorrectly:

Quote

I feel that, as AA has "[b:fdabb533c5]committees that carry the A.A. message into a variety of treatment settings"[/b:fdabb533c5], as opposed to letting treatment centers come to AA, promotion is indeed the correct word.

But the problem is not really whether or not AA attracts or promotes; the problem is the lack of information about secular alternatives to the faith-based, "spiritual", or shall we say "religious", models for recovery.

This leads to serious "risks" for those seeking recovery who are:
1. Dually diagnosed
2. Incorrectly diagnosed
3. Incapable of or unwilling to embrace "faith healing" as a "cure" for their addiction
[b:fdabb533c5]
Admonishments made to someone who is suffering from a mental or physical ailment to "work the steps" and "let go and let God" and "surrender" are probably valueless at best, and may be extremely destructive to that individual, as the examples I, (and others here and elsewhere), have given illustrate.[/b:fdabb533c5]

rrmoderator:

I ask that you disallow further discussion re AA by barabara on the grounds that she is misquoting and taking out of context AA policy and guidelines, and has admitted to blackening the image of AA as per her frustration not at the organisation but at me and other members of your messageboard who cannot support her incorrect portrayal of the organisation.

I wonder also whether all of the AA threads could be put into a separate folder. At the moment, they exist in threads about "Clergy Abuse" and "New religious movements" and others. More appropriate would be a new category, "Non-cult groups".

This forum is also about "therapy abuse". AA define alcoholism as a disease and aim at the alcoholic achieving sobriety, thereby AA qualifies as a system of therapy.

ughaibu:

AA is and has always been a support group.

Your attempt to call it "therapy" is misleading.

Mental health professionals that provide therapy don't consider AA "therapy," but rather a support group to reinforce and sustain recovery.

Try to keep this thread on track.

upside down:

Quote

"Bridging the gap" is what you are referring to and we will need to hash over exactly what this statement means given that you are misquoting and taking out of context, either carelessly or deliberately, parts of AA literature.

"Bridging the gap" is when AA members take the AA message of recovery into a facility in which there already exists alcoholics participating in AA, participation which has arisen only after initial contact has been made to AA by the facility in question.

The purpose of taking the message of recovery to the facility being to "bridge the gap" between referred AA participation by the facility and outside, voluntary participation in AA by the individual.

I ask that you disallow further discussion re AA by barabara on the grounds that she is misquoting and taking out of context AA policy and guidelines, and has admitted to blackening the image of AA as per her frustration not at the organisation but at me and other members of your messageboard who cannot support her incorrect portrayal of the organisation.

When you lift a passage, as written, directly from the official AA website, it can hardly qualify as a "misquote".

Quote

The purpose of the
Treatment Facilities assignment is to share
experience and information with committees
that carry the A.A. message into a variety of
treatment settings.

You, however, have misquoted me, repeatedly. For instance, you said:

Quote

she...has admitted to blackening the image of AA

That is a flagrant [b:ec4642ec78]lie[/b:ec4642ec78].
I have no intention of defending myself any further against your bizarre attacks.

barabara:

Come on--it's a "lie"?

You have posted and posted and posted negative attacks about AA for some time.

It seems to be the primary focus now of your posts here.

[b:5bc622f0f7]IndieQueen [/b:5bc622f0f7]writes:

Quote

I don't currently work in recovery or social services, but I am studying to do so. I can tell you that in my recovery and addiction class, we were only presented with the 12-step model, specifically AA. We were not told of alternative programs or how they operate. This information, we had to find on our own.

on the "[b:5bc622f0f7]AA , the mental health community, and the courts[/b:5bc622f0f7]" thread.

This is the first [b:5bc622f0f7]first-hand[/b:5bc622f0f7] knowledge of how a specific model of recovery is advocated by our institutes of higher learning.

(I have not yet had the opportunity to research the view of the various recovery models taken by the therapeutic and correctional professionals in my local area, but will do so ASAP.
There does seem to be an overwhelming bias on the part of the courts and educational institutions towards promoting the faith-based models, and a surprising ignorance of other methods.
Perhaps this is due to the fact that AA "carries the message" so well, what with disseminating their films and pamphlets and so forth to all the affiliated professionals.

This bias is peculiar, (to say the least),in light of the abyssmal rate of sobriety among AA members[/b] and ex-members, as shown by various research studies.

What I find most puzzling is the[b:5bc622f0f7] animosity[/b:5bc622f0f7] shown by AA advocates towards those who feel that AA is not the answer for everyone, and those who would provide alternatives, as winessed on this thread.

Perhaps it's time for the "secular alternative" recovery programs to do a little[b:5bc622f0f7] promoting of their own[/b:5bc622f0f7]?