Question for Alcoholics Anonymous experts.
Posted by:
barabara
()
Date: August 14, 2006 01:45PM
I was asked several times here why I am involved in this discussion.
I believe whole-heartededly, in [b:d7483960f5]freedom of thought[/b:d7483960f5].
[atheism.about.com]
Except for these guys, who seem to have found a solution to the problem of spirituality, maybe....
[www.seattleaa.org]
[b:d7483960f5]But are they still AA if they don't use the steps or the Big Book?[/b:d7483960f5] I have no idea what the official position on this is.
I believe whole-heartededly, in [b:d7483960f5]freedom of thought[/b:d7483960f5].
[atheism.about.com]
The AA literature is indeed hostile to the freethinker, as are most AA groups, the ones I have gone to or heard about.Quote
Alcoholics Anonymous is an organization which is decidedly hostile towards atheists, agnostics, skeptics and freethinkers of all sorts.
Some relevant quotes from the AA literature:Quote
If you think you are an atheist, an agnostic, a skeptic,... I feel sorry for you.
To one who feels he is an atheist or agnostic such an experience seems impossible,... To be doomed to an alcoholic death or to live on a spiritual basis are not always easy alternatives to face.
...after a while we had to face the fact that we must find a spiritual basis of life - or else.But cheer up, something like half of us thought we were atheists or agnostics.
Let's look first at the case of the one who says he won't believe --...He is in a state of mind which can be described only as savage.
We atheists ... believed... that our human intelligence is the last word ... Rather vain of us, wasn't it?
Except for these guys, who seem to have found a solution to the problem of spirituality, maybe....
[www.seattleaa.org]
I can definitely see these meetings as support groups, not cults.Quote
A.A.´s BIG TENT COVERS A LOT OF GROUND
Editor´s note: this article first appeared in High and Dry, the newsletter of Seattle AA, in October 2004.
Two of the meetings use the euphemism, "alternative format," to describe themselves, though the Tuesday 5:30 p.m. meeting at the Capitol Hill Alano Club also spells it out: "Atheist/Agnostic (Alternate Format)."
At the Matt Talbot Center on Fridays at 6:30, the meeting is "The Edge-Alternative Format."
Freethinkers at the Leif Erickson Hall in Ballard Thursday at 6:15 uses no other description, leaving it to the name to make the point.
These meetings are quite unstructured[b:d7483960f5]-no reading from "How It Works," no Serenity Prayer at the end.[/b:d7483960f5]
Dick M., who was interviewed for this article, opens Freethinkers with a "Statement of Intent" which says in part: "[b:d7483960f5]This meeting is intended to provide a comfortable forum for those recovering from Addiction to alcohol and/or other drugs regardless of any spiritual or philosophical beliefs.[/b:d7483960f5]" It then cites the Third Tradition: "The only requirement for A.A. membership is a desire to stop drinking."
[b:d7483960f5]Freethinkers, where he serves as "secretary and coffee maker," limits its discussion to the First Step[/b:d7483960f5], with emphasis on the second half: "…our lives had become unmanageable." "We´re supposed to be agnostic and atheist," Dick said, "but anybody that feels they need help is welcome."
Freethinkers makes no distinction between types of addiction. Drug addicts are as welcome as booze addicts.
Sharon goes to a variety of A.A. meetings. "I usually keep a low profile, but I speak up when there´s too much focus on Christian dogma. I try to remind people that [b:d7483960f5]this is a program of inclusion, not exclusion[/b:d7483960f5]. I prefer meetings like ours where you don´t have to think about how you´re going to phrase your comments. Unfortunately, though, I´ve had to be careful what I say in some A.A.A.A. (Alcoholics Anonymous for Atheists and Agnostics) too.
"That distresses me. What works for you is your business. Don´t force your beliefs on others. Share them. You don´t have to force feed it to them."
[b:d7483960f5]But are they still AA if they don't use the steps or the Big Book?[/b:d7483960f5] I have no idea what the official position on this is.
Question for Alcoholics Anonymous experts.
Posted by:
Colter
()
Date: August 14, 2006 08:57PM
Barbara,
For what it's worth I relate to your thinking.
I once though of myself as a "free thinker" but had no idea how shackled I was.
I think that is the primary problem that you have with AA's program, it most certainly dose suggest that we surrender to God (however we define that).
In AA an un surrendered free thinker stands out like a sore thumb.
Primitive man lived a life of superstitious bondage to religious fear. Modern, civilized men dread the thought of falling under the dominance of strong religious convictions. Thinking man has always feared to be held by a religion. [b:fd1b9aab34]When a strong and moving religion threatens to dominate him, he invariably tries to rationalize, traditionalize, and institutionalize it, thereby hoping to gain control of it. By such procedure, even a revealed religion becomes man-made and man-dominated. [/b:fd1b9aab34]
Modern men and women of intelligence evade religion or spiritual movements because of their fears of what it will do to them--and with them. And all such fears are well founded. The program of AA does, indeed, dominate and transform its believers, demanding that men dedicate their lives to seeking for a knowledge of the will of the Father in heaven and requiring that the energies of living be consecrated to the unselfish service of the brotherhood of man.
It was when I was repeatedly humbled by the cruel lash of alcoholism that I became willing to consider that I did not know everything and that perhaps their is a greater wisdom in the universe besides myself. So it was true for me that alcohol became the [b:fd1b9aab34]great persuader.[/b:fd1b9aab34]
I put my full trust in (my God) and I now feel more free then I ever have been.
So that seems to be the primary obstacle that your up against on the issue of AA and [u:fd1b9aab34]YOU ARE RIGHT![/u:fd1b9aab34]
We say it at all the meetings, "we wish we could find an easier softer way but we could not".
Colter
For what it's worth I relate to your thinking.
I once though of myself as a "free thinker" but had no idea how shackled I was.
I think that is the primary problem that you have with AA's program, it most certainly dose suggest that we surrender to God (however we define that).
In AA an un surrendered free thinker stands out like a sore thumb.
Primitive man lived a life of superstitious bondage to religious fear. Modern, civilized men dread the thought of falling under the dominance of strong religious convictions. Thinking man has always feared to be held by a religion. [b:fd1b9aab34]When a strong and moving religion threatens to dominate him, he invariably tries to rationalize, traditionalize, and institutionalize it, thereby hoping to gain control of it. By such procedure, even a revealed religion becomes man-made and man-dominated. [/b:fd1b9aab34]
Modern men and women of intelligence evade religion or spiritual movements because of their fears of what it will do to them--and with them. And all such fears are well founded. The program of AA does, indeed, dominate and transform its believers, demanding that men dedicate their lives to seeking for a knowledge of the will of the Father in heaven and requiring that the energies of living be consecrated to the unselfish service of the brotherhood of man.
It was when I was repeatedly humbled by the cruel lash of alcoholism that I became willing to consider that I did not know everything and that perhaps their is a greater wisdom in the universe besides myself. So it was true for me that alcohol became the [b:fd1b9aab34]great persuader.[/b:fd1b9aab34]
I put my full trust in (my God) and I now feel more free then I ever have been.
So that seems to be the primary obstacle that your up against on the issue of AA and [u:fd1b9aab34]YOU ARE RIGHT![/u:fd1b9aab34]
We say it at all the meetings, "we wish we could find an easier softer way but we could not".
Colter
Question for Alcoholics Anonymous experts.
Posted by:
upsidedownnewspaper
()
Date: August 14, 2006 09:01PM
Quote
kathQuote
upsidedownnewspaperQuote
barabara
Posting a link to the website would be nice.
That way we could verify whether or not you used an actual quote, and see for ourselves what they have to say.
Look it up. You've got the web?
The burden is on someone making an argument to provide sources for it. It's called scholarship.
Perhaps I should have bolded the words, "As for Australia, the AA website says..."
Question for Alcoholics Anonymous experts.
Posted by:
upsidedownnewspaper
()
Date: August 14, 2006 09:36PM
Quote
Colter
Primitive man lived a life of superstitious bondage to religious fear. Modern, civilized men dread the thought of falling under the dominance of strong religious convictions. Thinking man has always feared to be held by a religion. [b:e9fd794d8b]When a strong and moving religion threatens to dominate him, he invariably tries to rationalize, traditionalize, and institutionalize it, thereby hoping to gain control of it. By such procedure, even a revealed religion becomes man-made and man-dominated. [/b:e9fd794d8b]
Colter, would AA allow a thinking person like barabara her personal freedom to consider "the greater wisdom in the universe" as you posit it, "a greater PHILOSOPHICAL wisdom" rather than a "greater RELIGIOUS wisdom..."?
That there is something other than ourselves that we can utilise to our benefit, need not be a religious belief but a philosophical one?
Question for Alcoholics Anonymous experts.
Posted by:
ughaibu
()
Date: August 14, 2006 09:50PM
Upsidedownnewspaper: You are still looking at this as a matter of language, whether the term used is "religious" or "philosophical" makes no difference to the actuality of what is being discussed.
Question for Alcoholics Anonymous experts.
Posted by:
Colter
()
Date: August 14, 2006 10:53PM
Quote
upsidedownnewspaperQuote
Colter
Primitive man lived a life of superstitious bondage to religious fear. Modern, civilized men dread the thought of falling under the dominance of strong religious convictions. Thinking man has always feared to be held by a religion. [b:5ef1df7515]When a strong and moving religion threatens to dominate him, he invariably tries to rationalize, traditionalize, and institutionalize it, thereby hoping to gain control of it. By such procedure, even a revealed religion becomes man-made and man-dominated. [/b:5ef1df7515]
Colter, would AA allow a thinking person like barabara her personal freedom to consider "the greater wisdom in the universe" as you posit it, "a greater PHILOSOPHICAL wisdom" rather than a "greater RELIGIOUS wisdom..."?
That there is something other than ourselves that we can utilise to our benefit, need not be a religious belief but a philosophical one?
Absolutely!
AA is a remarkable fellowship in that it's core is sobriety through change of the inner spirit of the individual via a sure dependence upon a power greater then ourselves as we define that power.
Because alcoholics are typically quite rebellious against authority, especially anything that smells like "religion", we have (out of great necessity) fostered and developed a program wherein the individual is respected, allowed and even encouraged to come to their own convictions quite apart from a solidified "god concept" inherent in the organization itself.
If collectively AA has a God concept it is an "evolved" concept made up of the component parts of the experiences of ALL members and their own unique striving for meaning and sobriety.
The good will of AA, the tolerance is such that while it is founded on the idea of faith as the answer to our dilemma an individual is allowed to grow or not and contribute that to the evolving body of wisdom which helps us stay sober and return us to society as healthy productive members.
So even atheist are respected, loved, tolerated, included and allowed to apply the program as best they can.
Colter
Question for Alcoholics Anonymous experts.
Posted by:
barabara
()
Date: August 15, 2006 12:03AM
Quote
In AA an un surrendered free thinker stands out like a sore thumb.
So that seems to be the primary obstacle that your up against on the issue of AA and YOU ARE RIGHT[/color:b4bc5f1fce]!
We say it at all the meetings, "we wish we could find an easier softer way but we could not".
Colter
So there it is, just like how it was in all those hundreds of meetings;
"It's OK to be an atheist, (or just someone who refuses to discuss their own spiritual belief system), you'll come around to our way of thinking sooner or later".
And[b:b4bc5f1fce] that[/b:b4bc5f1fce] statement is totally untrue.Quote
So even atheist are respected, loved, tolerated, included and allowed to apply the program as best they can.
AA uses deceptive means to recruit members, then proceeds to use thought control techniques to implant a new reality and force a different concept of God on them.
The Big Book threatens them with death from drinking if they do not conform to their way of thinking, and the other devotees often shun them when they leave the cult.
[b:b4bc5f1fce]Colter gives a most accurate representation of the program.[/b:b4bc5f1fce]
His views and expressions are un-erringly orthodox, and identical to the views of the vast majority of the old-timers I met, (who are usually older):
"We love, respect and tolerate you, because you are sick, but we are certain that [b:b4bc5f1fce]you will eventually come around to our way of thinking because we know better and if you don't you will die[/b:b4bc5f1fce]".
Quote
So it was true for me that alcohol became the great persuader.
[b:b4bc5f1fce]It isn't alcohol that's the great persuader, it is AA[/b:b4bc5f1fce].
Either you get "persuaded" in AA, or you eventually leave, bitter and damaged from your failed [b:b4bc5f1fce] indoctrination experience[/b:b4bc5f1fce], hopefully to heal and come to your senses and realize that you were just under the influence of a thought reform program and [b:b4bc5f1fce]it is not your fault[/b:b4bc5f1fce].
**********************
[board.culteducation.com]
[b:b4bc5f1fce]"concerned oz[/b:b4bc5f1fce]" says:
Quote
However, this board is about helping those who have been deceived by another person or organisation through the use of unethical psychological means to believe in "the rock", where such belief is:
1. [b:b4bc5f1fce]Against what the person would have believed prior to the precipitating coercive relationship[/b:b4bc5f1fce];
2.[b:b4bc5f1fce] Is causing either physical, emotional, psychological, spiritual, financial and relationships harm[/b:b4bc5f1fce].
Therefore, if anyone wants to evangelise their brand of religion, it is best to do it on level ground where the principles of the religion can be tested against reason without coercion to people who have not be psychologically abused. This wesite is not the appropriate environment for evangelisation.
Question for Alcoholics Anonymous experts.
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: August 15, 2006 12:13AM
barabara:
Your posts are beginning to come across like "flaming" more than anything else.
You should be used to people disagreeing with you about AA, as few people actually share your opinion of that organization.
This seems to have become something like a mantra for you, as you repeat it again and again.
However, repetition doesn't make it so.
And your claims of death threats and deception are very hard to believe.
My daily work for almost 25 years has been cults and the thought reform techniques that cults use to control and manipulate people.
I see no compelling evidence that AA is either a "cult" or that it employs "thought control techniques."
Sorry, but that's the way I see it.
Please don't fill this thread with flames.
Your posts are beginning to come across like "flaming" more than anything else.
Quote
that statement is total horse crap.
You should be used to people disagreeing with you about AA, as few people actually share your opinion of that organization.
Quote
AA is a cult, just like every other cult I've ever encountered.
AA used deceptive means to recruit myself and my family members, then proceeded to use thought control techniques to implant a new reality and force a different concept of God on us.
AA threatened us with death if we did not conform to their way of thinking, and the other devotees shunned us when we left the cult.
This seems to have become something like a mantra for you, as you repeat it again and again.
However, repetition doesn't make it so.
And your claims of death threats and deception are very hard to believe.
My daily work for almost 25 years has been cults and the thought reform techniques that cults use to control and manipulate people.
I see no compelling evidence that AA is either a "cult" or that it employs "thought control techniques."
Sorry, but that's the way I see it.
Please don't fill this thread with flames.
Question for Alcoholics Anonymous experts.
Posted by:
barabara
()
Date: August 15, 2006 12:20AM
I have seen hundreds of opinions, by ex-members and experts in the field of psychology.
I have no intention of changing my interpretation of my experience based upon pressure from others who were not there.
The[b:7f81f9c8b4] "death threats"[/b:7f81f9c8b4] I am referring to are the statements in [b:7f81f9c8b4]the Big Book[/b:7f81f9c8b4] that bthose who do not work the steps will die. I have posted those quotes before.
The[b:7f81f9c8b4] "deception"[/b:7f81f9c8b4] to which I refer is from the [b:7f81f9c8b4]big book[/b:7f81f9c8b4] as well; the 12 stepper is told not to stress the spiritual aspect of AA to the alcoholic, but [b:7f81f9c8b4]save it for later[/b:7f81f9c8b4], and he will "come to believe".
AA, in their own words, in the Big Book, says they "feel sorry for the athiest", and that the atheist "[b:7f81f9c8b4]must change his mind or die[/b:7f81f9c8b4]".
In my experience, (and on this thread), AA tolerates the atheist only because AA is convinced that they can change the belief system of the atheist.
I have no intention of changing my interpretation of my experience based upon pressure from others who were not there.
Quote
And your claims of death threats and deception are very hard to believe.
The[b:7f81f9c8b4] "death threats"[/b:7f81f9c8b4] I am referring to are the statements in [b:7f81f9c8b4]the Big Book[/b:7f81f9c8b4] that bthose who do not work the steps will die. I have posted those quotes before.
The[b:7f81f9c8b4] "deception"[/b:7f81f9c8b4] to which I refer is from the [b:7f81f9c8b4]big book[/b:7f81f9c8b4] as well; the 12 stepper is told not to stress the spiritual aspect of AA to the alcoholic, but [b:7f81f9c8b4]save it for later[/b:7f81f9c8b4], and he will "come to believe".
AA, in their own words, in the Big Book, says they "feel sorry for the athiest", and that the atheist "[b:7f81f9c8b4]must change his mind or die[/b:7f81f9c8b4]".
In my experience, (and on this thread), AA tolerates the atheist only because AA is convinced that they can change the belief system of the atheist.
Question for Alcoholics Anonymous experts.
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: August 15, 2006 12:27AM
barabara:
I think you are mature enough to know the difference between stating an opinion and flaming.
It seems when people don't agree with you the insults begin and you become quite shrill.
I suggest you calm down and consider your posts more carefully.
The "hundreds of opinions" you claim are far outweighed by the thousands and thousands of expert opinions that don't see AA as you do.
You should be used to that by now.
If AA is as bad as you say the facts will come out eventually and sway expert and other opinion otherwise.
That hasn't happened yet.
I think you are mature enough to know the difference between stating an opinion and flaming.
It seems when people don't agree with you the insults begin and you become quite shrill.
I suggest you calm down and consider your posts more carefully.
The "hundreds of opinions" you claim are far outweighed by the thousands and thousands of expert opinions that don't see AA as you do.
You should be used to that by now.
If AA is as bad as you say the facts will come out eventually and sway expert and other opinion otherwise.
That hasn't happened yet.
Sorry, you can't reply to this topic. It has been closed.