They are not diversions, we're just trying to tell you that you have an inaccurate view of the current nature of this group. We don't discredit or belittle the fact that this is what went on decades ago or that it's good reason to be pissed off and want justice, but it's not something that members are currently struggling with. All of us have sort of been asking ourselves, "sexual abuse? what the hell is she talking about? you mean the 1981 thing?" It's not something we see, hear about, or were ever subjected to our entire lives...

Nevertheless, I'll give you this much, to this day I haven't heard a rational explanation for staying loyal to this man after the 1981 incident. In fact, I've heard prideful stories from parents, saying they weren't sure why they trusted "abba" with their children, they just did, and they're so happy they did.

PS - One of the most unnerving concepts in my falling away from this group... If they're right, if there is a god, if he chose a homosexual pastor to molest children and raise the new kingdom of Israelites after they survive in the woods while the world is destroyed, well then $%@# the whole of the universe, because "god's plan" is so sick, twisted, prideful and intellectually unsatisfying that all of existence will have been in vain.

How people don't see the absurdity of the future they yearn for, I have no idea. It's shameful that they substantiate their lives through faith in the apocalypse and the fall of humankind, through their promised position in the new kingdom. The real future will be a very humbling experience for them, should they ever see the error of their ways.

Two Worlds- I've been thinking about what you wrote, and you're right- without announcing it, gary has taken over the position. I guess I see him a little differently in that I always wondered if JH was full of it, or believed what he was saying. Gary has a different air about him- I believe he is sincere, and maybe disillusioned in the same way the youth are - being taught for years and years they are something different and special, with the world's fate basically on their shoulders. That's something I just thought of when reading your post. We are constantly told that what we do essentially decides the world's course- the whole negative energy bounces back, and causes things, like the tsunami. That somehow we cause these things because we have a biger responsibility than "normal" people. So yes, I do see the cult behavior here. I don't even see some of the things taught as being negative on their own- a lot of it is actually positive, but it's the context that surrounds it.
Another difference I see between Gary and JH is the motivation. Not sure what it is now except trying to hold together something he believes in wholeheartedly. He still collects tithe, yes, but I also know that only about 50% of people are paying it at this point. As far as a compound like living arrangement- the only one I know of is The V family, and it's pretty much just their family.
Maybe it's the subtlety of things that makes me question what we really are. It's easy to look at Waco, Jonestown, FLDS, etc, and see clear-cut destructive groups. It's not so easy to see when I look around and see people who come accross quite successful, well-adjusted, warm and relaxed- people who seem to interact just as well with the "outside" world as with eachother. It is subtle.
I was among those coming home from retreats flying high- with a new sense of purpose to my life. It has slowly eroded through the years. But I don't see my life as purposeless. I try not to let the group dictate my life, and I can only make sure my own children are raised with a less delusional self-image. It's tricky to strike that balance. My family is still 100% devoted. Again, it's tricky. I appear to be a part of things. I don't question- in order to not stir the pot with my own family. I've never felt that we aren't allowed to question things, and it has actually been encouraged by the leadership, but most won't question because of fear that their own family will disapprove, and that can be a powerful thing.

Wow. Not sure who will post anything here in the future! Too bad. I was rereading all of the posts back to the beginning and I found one from mennodoc on Aug. 4, 2008. Mennodoc previously shared that he left the community in 1983. In the Aug 4 post, he says that after leaving he began to read the novels of Solzhenitsyn which deal with THE LOSS OF MEANING AND ITS RECOVERY. This is what I am hearing from some of the posters. This is what I experienced but with me the loss was the loss of my identity as a Lutheran growing up in St. Johns. Perhaps it is pathetic but I am still carving out a new identity. For some of the young members of the community, the loss of identiity is realizing that their parents or even grandparents followed a delusion and that delusion has affected their lives in many subtle and blatant ways. How do they recover? and where do they go from here? I knew Dennis Walsh but I bet many of today's young members have no idea who he was. Maybe some of them have never seen the Newsday article. I was never privy to the really weird stuff so it was easy not to hate my family and friends. The more I find out the more I want to confront them but it is not easy. I guess I turned to this forum for strength and understanding. I am pretty good at beating myself but, go ahead sallie, let me have it! I accept the fact that you feel your truth is the only truth.

I must say that I have never heard of "fish people". Can anyone elaborate?

To whom it may concern:

Posting personal attacks is against the rules.

Disagree, but don't attack people personally.

Posts that attack people personally will not be approved. If a member persists posting personal attacks he or she will be banned from the board.

To whom it may concern:

The history of a group is important.

For example, if abuses did occur and the current leadership refuses to acknowledge this and/or covers up, it demonstrates persistent problems with accountability.

See [www.culteducation.com]

Ten warning signs of a potentially unsafe group/leader.

1. Absolute authoritarianism without meaningful accountability.

2. No tolerance for questions or critical inquiry.

3. No meaningful financial disclosure regarding budget, expenses such as an independently audited financial statement.

4. Unreasonable fear about the outside world, such as impending catastrophe, evil conspiracies and persecutions.

5. There is no legitimate reason to leave, former followers are always wrong in leaving, negative or even evil.

6. Former members often relate the same stories of abuse and reflect a similar pattern of grievances.

7. There are records, books, news articles, or television programs that document the abuses of the group/leader.

8. Followers feel they can never be "good enough".

9. The group/leader is always right.

10. The group/leader is the exclusive means of knowing "truth" or receiving validation, no other process of discovery is really acceptable or credible.

Ten warning signs regarding people involved in/with a potentially unsafe group/leader.

1. Extreme obsessiveness regarding the group/leader resulting in the exclusion of almost every practical consideration.

2. Individual identity, the group, the leader and/or God as distinct and separate categories of existence become increasingly blurred. Instead, in the follower's mind these identities become substantially and increasingly fused--as that person's involvement with the group/leader continues and deepens.

3. Whenever the group/leader is criticized or questioned it is characterized as "persecution".

4. Uncharacteristically stilted and seemingly programmed conversation and mannerisms, cloning of the group/leader in personal behavior.

5. Dependency upon the group/leader for problem solving, solutions, and definitions without meaningful reflective thought. A seeming inability to think independently or analyze situations without group/leader involvement.

6. Hyperactivity centered on the group/leader agenda, which seems to supercede any personal goals or individual interests.

7. A dramatic loss of spontaneity and sense of humor.

8. Increasing isolation from family and old friends unless they demonstrate an interest in the group/leader.

9. Anything the group/leader does can be justified no matter how harsh or harmful.

10. Former followers are at best-considered negative or worse evil and under bad influences. They can not be trusted and personal contact is avoided.

Ten signs of a safe group/leader.

1. A safe group/leader will answer your questions without becoming judgmental and punitive.

2. A safe group/leader will disclose information such as finances and often offer an independently audited financial statement regarding budget and expenses. Safe groups and leaders will tell you more than you want to know.

3. A safe group/leader is often democratic, sharing decision making and encouraging accountability and oversight.

4. A safe group/leader may have disgruntled former followers, but will not vilify, excommunicate and forbid others from associating with them.

5. A safe group/leader will not have a paper trail of overwhelmingly negative records, books, articles and statements about them.

6. A safe group/leader will encourage family communication, community interaction and existing friendships and not feel threatened.

7. A safe group/leader will recognize reasonable boundaries and limitations when dealing with others.

8. A safe group/leader will encourage critical thinking, individual autonomy and feelings of self-esteem.

9. A safe group/leader will admit failings and mistakes and accept constructive criticism and advice.

10. A safe group/leader will not be the only source of knowledge and learning excluding everyone else, but value dialogue and the free exchange of ideas.

Thanks, moderator, for that list.
Here is where some of the confusion, and subltey lies, though. And this is obviously my own opinion, with my own observations at the core:

10 signs of a potentially unsafe group/leader

3,4,5 and 7 seem to apply

10 warning signs regarding people involved w/

1 applies- mainly to the older generation, 5 to some people- I've heard of constant phone calls to abba/gary regarding relatively mundane problems, and 9 definately applies to the older generation.
I have heard that JH publicly ate cheeseburgers and lobster while teaching rabbinic Kashrut, and it was excused. Also, the whole"passing of the seed". I personally heard gary invite questions regarding this or anything read on the internet- as recently as last January. Does anyone know if he was ever asked, and if so, what his answer was?

10 signs of a safe group leader

1,4, 6,7,8,9 and 10 apply- at least in my experience.

So, I do have some confusion. It begs the question- where does personal responsibility come in? Is it possible that different families within the "Family" take things to different extremes, therefore affecting members differently? Could it be relatively harmless to some, while devastating to others based on the parents' interpretations and practices?

But it does still seem to come back to accountability. And Like Fallen49er- I have yet to see a coherent or logical answer/excuse for the past behavior of JH. Not that an excuse would change anything- it's just that noone has even attempted to come up with something, while still defending him- disturbing, if you ask me.

I have asked my own parents why they stayed- and will share the answer, but must get back to work at the moment.

daddylonglegs:

Does the group have a democratically elected board, which is elected by the general membership to fixed terms? And if so can this board discipline and if necessary remove people from leadership?

Was Jack Hickman accountable to such a democratically elected board?

Is the current leadership accountable to such a board?

How is the group financially transparent regarding any monies received through contributions/tithes?

Is there an annually published budget that discloses in detail all expenses, salaries and any compensation paid out from such funds?

Has there ever been an independently audited financial report?

Quote
rrmoderator
daddylonglegs:

Does the group have a democratically elected board, which is elected by the general membership to fixed terms? And if so can this board discipline and if necessary remove people from leadership?

They have a board of "elders" that are on there until they die or Gary takes them off.

Quote
rrmoderator
Was Jack Hickman accountable to such a democratically elected board?

Never. Any board elected was accountable only to him until he died.

Quote
rrmoderator
Is the current leadership accountable to such a board?

No.

Quote
rrmoderator
How is the group financially transparent regarding any monies received through contributions/tithes?

They arent. The only people that know where the money goes are the ones in charge of it. The rest of us are told that we are not allowed to know where it goes. We are told that we should not question where it goes.

Quote
rrmoderator
Is there an annually published budget that discloses in detail all expenses, salaries and any compensation paid out from such funds?

I have heard that there is a report of where the money goes. I have never seen it. I asked to see it once. I was told that only "priests" could see.

Quote
rrmoderator
Has there ever been an independently audited financial report?

Never.

Thanks Moderator for that list:

Here are the ones that I feel apply to this group, **** especially apply, regardless that this leader is no longer alive:

Ten warning signs of a potentially unsafe group/leader.
1. Absolute authoritarianism without meaningful accountability.
3. No meaningful financial disclosure regarding budget, expenses such as an independently audited financial statement.
4. Unreasonable fear about the outside world, such as impending catastrophe, evil conspiracies and persecutions. (Watchers)
*****5. There is no legitimate reason to leave, former followers are always wrong in leaving, negative or even evil.
6. Former members often relate the same stories of abuse and reflect a similar pattern of grievances.
7. There are records, books, news articles, or television programs that document the abuses of the group/leader.
9. The group/leader is always right.
****10. The group/leader is the exclusive means of knowing "truth" or receiving validation, no other process of discovery is really acceptable or credible.

Ten warning signs regarding people involved in/with a potentially unsafe group/leader.

****1. Extreme obsessiveness regarding the group/leader resulting in the exclusion of almost every practical consideration.
****2. Individual identity, the group, the leader and/or God as distinct and separate categories of existence become increasingly blurred. Instead, in the follower's mind these identities become substantially and increasingly fused--as that person's involvement wth the group/leader continues and deepens.
3. Whenever the group/leader is criticized or questioned it is characterized as "persecution".
5. Dependency upon the group/leader for problem solving, solutions, and definitions without meaningful reflective thought. A seeming inability to think independently or analyze situations without group/leader involvement.
****6. Hyperactivity centered on the group/leader agenda, which seems to supercede any personal goals or individual interests.
9. Anything the group/leader does can be justified no matter how harsh or harmful.
10. Former followers are at best-considered negative or worse evil and under bad influences. They can not be trusted and personal contact is avoided.
As you know this thread has been existence for many many years. Past sexual abuse did occur in this group. It is no longer going on and is transparent with the current leader. This religious cult was formed by a man, JH. The entire belief system is related to his bizarre teachings. People were taught that he was a prophet, he himself taught that he went up to heaven and chose all the souls for group members. This is only the tip of the iceberg related to what he taught. Anyone can read back through this post over the years and see the damaging teachings that held people to him. Some teachings are not even on here. The group was not focused on the authority of God but the ultimate last word and opinion of JH. Although as daddylonlegs states the younger people have come to realize the falsehood of these teachings they were raised to believe they were the worlds chosen. As I said, JH himself taught that he went up to heaven and chose their souls. As preteens and teens they believed this. To come down to reality after being taught these things is a psychological nightmare that will take a lifetime to overcome, and is absolutely cult abuse due to an a psychological spiritual abuse and brainwashing. I did read two books on Cult recovery which were not helpful to me or my family because cult studies and research do not address the insidious ongoing nature of this type of abuse. People who, for various reasons are caught in a tangled web such as this for 30 years perhaps even for a lifetime, are not the study of cult researchers. I was personally “put on the left” a few years ago, which means that I was not allowed to be spoken to by active members. My friends did adhere to this. Although I was not kept from seeing my children, the fact that they were repeatedly told I was “on the left” was extremely destructive. The status I had continued after the death of JH. There were some things I had to do to be put back “on the right”. I did it for my children. If this is not cult abuse I don’t know what is. Perhaps it is because it is so insidious that the damage that is ongoing is almost too complex to describe unless you have lived through it. This is the experience of some people on this thread. I was ripped to pieces by a personal response from a poster on here. I chose not to respond. This poster feels that current psychological abuse is not significant, that only his/her story is significant and is unable to understand the pain of present day members. This poster has called serious, serious names to a person by his full name. Yesterday this person has attacked and attacked with repeated angry dismissive postings, the people on this post who are on here for help from today’s problems and struggles. I hope that as a moderator your comments were not made to negate present day cult abuse victims or to imply in any way that this type of abuse is not real or based on an abusive and controlling cult. I would be horrified and abandoned with my suffering if this were true. It seems so far today that everyone has effectively been silenced.