Re: Jack Hickman
Posted by:
Fallen 49r
()
Date: October 29, 2009 05:57AM
Quote
rrmoderator
How is the group financially transparent regarding any monies received through contributions/tithes?
Is there an annually published budget that discloses in detail all expenses, salaries and any compensation paid out from such funds?
Has there ever been an independently audited financial report?
There are some democratic processes, but they are as genuine and transparent as Ahmadinejad's presidential win, in that positions are decided, or withdrawn, often at the will of an already exclusive cabinet, chosen by the leadership.
The tithe agreement is a "mandatory" stipulation in the covenant they believe they hold with god, through "abba". It is a holy gift to god, whose spending is entrusted to the leadership. When asked specifically how the tithe is spent, the leadership scoffs and claims that what happens to these funds is "no longer your concern" once handed over to god, (...and they wonder why so few people pay tithe these days).
Re: Jack Hickman
Posted by:
Two Worlds
()
Date: October 29, 2009 06:46AM
Quote
daddylonglegs
Two Worlds- I've been thinking about what you wrote, and you're right- without announcing it, gary has taken over the position. I guess I see him a little differently in that I always wondered if JH was full of it, or believed what he was saying. Gary has a different air about him- I believe he is sincere, and maybe disillusioned in the same way the youth are - being taught for years and years they are something different and special, with the world's fate basically on their shoulders. That's something I just thought of when reading your post. We are constantly told that what we do essentially decides the world's course- the whole negative energy bounces back, and causes things, like the tsunami. That somehow we cause these things because we have a biger responsibility than "normal" people. So yes, I do see the cult behavior here. I don't even see some of the things taught as being negative on their own- a lot of it is actually positive, but it's the context that surrounds it.
Another difference I see between Gary and JH is the motivation. Not sure what it is now except trying to hold together something he believes in wholeheartedly. He still collects tithe, yes, but I also know that only about 50% of people are paying it at this point. As far as a compound like living arrangement- the only one I know of is The V family, and it's pretty much just their family.
Maybe it's the subtlety of things that makes me question what we really are. It's easy to look at Waco, Jonestown, FLDS, etc, and see clear-cut destructive groups. It's not so easy to see when I look around and see people who come accross quite successful, well-adjusted, warm and relaxed- people who seem to interact just as well with the "outside" world as with eachother. It is subtle.
I was among those coming home from retreats flying high- with a new sense of purpose to my life. It has slowly eroded through the years. But I don't see my life as purposeless. I try not to let the group dictate my life, and I can only make sure my own children are raised with a less delusional self-image. It's tricky to strike that balance. My family is still 100% devoted. Again, it's tricky. I appear to be a part of things. I don't question- in order to not stir the pot with my own family. I've never felt that we aren't allowed to question things, and it has actually been encouraged by the leadership, but most won't question because of fear that their own family will disapprove, and that can be a powerful thing.
I agree with you. Gary is not a manipulator but he does have an extreme reverence for JH. All his teachings reflect this, and he constantly states Abba said this or taught that. I believe he is trying to hold things together for a variety of reasons, I am not totally sure either. I don’t think the teachings were all bad either. I still gain spiritual strength from some teachings. That is one of the things that enable people to slowly overcome the ridiculous teachings, when some teachings are founded on strong spiritually. However I don’t feel it is very minimal or subtle. It may be hard to recognize but it has caused severe confusion, split or loss of identities, loss of meaning and purpose, pain, fear, disillusionment and a feeling of not belonging anywhere, due to constant severe psycholgical, emotional and spiritual manipulation. It doesn't seem as if this is the case for you and that is good. I know my children will not tell their children these delusional things. That I am sure of. There are very phanatical young people as well. Visit CO if you want to see compound like. This is a residual cult with tons of collateral damage. I see things waning. However they have waned and apparently disappeared before, only to rise again. It doesn't really matter. The cult was a clear, clear cult formed by JH and has caused irreparable damage to many people that will last a lifetime. I am glad you feel free of that and feel it was just a passing stage of your life and if you just go get a career and family outside the group all is well. Others do not feel that way. There are reasons my family members and many others do not feel as free. The fear of telling others is primarily the most debilitating reason. I don't know how you feel it would affect you if you told anyone, but I know from personal experience that it is bad. I know of grown children who have been ostracized for this as well. Most young or older people don't want to risk this, lack of belief or not.
Re: Jack Hickman
Posted by:
Two Worlds
()
Date: October 29, 2009 06:55AM
This group has elders and clan heads, mispahas, 49ers, miriams, priests ands other titles. The leader is not responsible to any of those, although others are.
Re: Jack Hickman
Posted by:
incarnate soul
()
Date: October 29, 2009 08:16AM
Jack was not the only one who taught of this. I have come across the concept in many writtings and many books even on my shelf today. I bearly remember Jack's teaching on it but I do remember thinking how abstract it was. Well today after a 30 year journey I still come across the concept from many, many other sources. Barbara Hand Clow has spoken of it in many of her books written in the early to late 90's ...... as have so many others. I am not saying I agree or disagree ...... my point is I don't think it is right for you to completly attrubite it to Jack, or attack Jack for it. The physical actions being reviewed here, well that is a valid point and I personally was close to a person involved in one that has been brought up. Teachings that are what some may consider "strange" others consider acceptable, so to attack a person or a group of people for these is not right. As far as the community now ............ I have not been involved for over 30 years but some of the closest people in my life are and their path after 30 years of seperation has evolved the same as mine and they are closer to G-d than most I know. To condem a whole for actions of a part is very short sighted.
Re: Jack Hickman
Posted by:
brainwashed
()
Date: October 29, 2009 08:19AM
Sallie -
Whatever your experiences may have been, you have repeatedly stated them. We get it.
This forum is not yours, and your repeated posts are bothering myself and other users. (I think) We are all adults here trying to share our experiences, learn from one another, and move on the best way we can. No one here (in my opinion) is still an "active member" of JH's group. You do not need to convince us that what JH did was wrong - whatever that may or may not have been. We are all here because we in some way have been affected by this group most of which... in a negative way. If there are active members on this forum - they are only here because they want to know who has "defected"
It is my opinion that you should never ask for personal email addresses, or make statements (on a forum that is designed to hide peoples identity) "why dont we just email each other" I have seen a user kicked off this forum for doing so.
If you are trying to have an adult conversation, or tone down a possibly heated discussion - dont use the word "battle"
That is not what we are here for.
Whatever your experiences may have been, you have repeatedly stated them. We get it.
This forum is not yours, and your repeated posts are bothering myself and other users. (I think) We are all adults here trying to share our experiences, learn from one another, and move on the best way we can. No one here (in my opinion) is still an "active member" of JH's group. You do not need to convince us that what JH did was wrong - whatever that may or may not have been. We are all here because we in some way have been affected by this group most of which... in a negative way. If there are active members on this forum - they are only here because they want to know who has "defected"
It is my opinion that you should never ask for personal email addresses, or make statements (on a forum that is designed to hide peoples identity) "why dont we just email each other" I have seen a user kicked off this forum for doing so.
If you are trying to have an adult conversation, or tone down a possibly heated discussion - dont use the word "battle"
That is not what we are here for.
Re: Jack Hickman
Posted by:
Sallie
()
Date: October 29, 2009 10:31AM
brainwashed
Date Added: 04/26/2009
Posts: 2 Re: Jack HickmanSallie -
Whatever your experiences may have been, you have repeatedly stated them. We get it.
This forum is not yours, and your repeated posts are bothering myself and other users. (I think) We are all adults here trying to share our experiences, learn from one another, and move on the best way we can. No one here (in my opinion) is still an "active member" of JH's group. You do not need to convince us that what JH did was wrong - whatever that may or may not have been. We are all here because we in some way have been affected by this group most of which... in a negative way. If there are active members on this forum - they are only here because they want to know who has "defected"
It is my opinion that you should never ask for personal email addresses, or make statements (on a forum that is designed to hide peoples identity) "why dont we just email each other" I have seen a user kicked off this forum for doing so.
If you are trying to have an adult conversation, or tone down a possibly heated discussion - dont use the word "battle"
That is not what we are here for.
========================================================================
All right.
I'm not too tired.
Let's talk.
1)You say ''we'' are no longer members of the JH group? How is it then that you all keep speaking for one another and agreeing and saying the same thing?
2)How is it that one minute you are all a collective representation of the ''those with concerned for lost loved ones'' and then you collectively morph into a like minded group of ''trapped youth''' and then after another miraculous change you morph into a collective group of ''those who want to heal''?????
It's as tiring as watching young children constantly change costumes while they try to figure out which game to play.
You know I can't continue to post.
Eventually I have to stop responding because I have a life.
I need some assurance that...this time...when I leave off posting for a while....the collective group will not morph into the players of another ''we hate Sallie'' play.
Stop.
Really.
Just stop.
Even if it is a burning desire to spew out one more poodle like....''ha ha we hate you'' bark...just don't.
Really.
Just stop.
I have to stop responding so stop trying to dis credit me.
Date Added: 04/26/2009
Posts: 2 Re: Jack HickmanSallie -
Whatever your experiences may have been, you have repeatedly stated them. We get it.
This forum is not yours, and your repeated posts are bothering myself and other users. (I think) We are all adults here trying to share our experiences, learn from one another, and move on the best way we can. No one here (in my opinion) is still an "active member" of JH's group. You do not need to convince us that what JH did was wrong - whatever that may or may not have been. We are all here because we in some way have been affected by this group most of which... in a negative way. If there are active members on this forum - they are only here because they want to know who has "defected"
It is my opinion that you should never ask for personal email addresses, or make statements (on a forum that is designed to hide peoples identity) "why dont we just email each other" I have seen a user kicked off this forum for doing so.
If you are trying to have an adult conversation, or tone down a possibly heated discussion - dont use the word "battle"
That is not what we are here for.
========================================================================
All right.
I'm not too tired.
Let's talk.
1)You say ''we'' are no longer members of the JH group? How is it then that you all keep speaking for one another and agreeing and saying the same thing?
2)How is it that one minute you are all a collective representation of the ''those with concerned for lost loved ones'' and then you collectively morph into a like minded group of ''trapped youth''' and then after another miraculous change you morph into a collective group of ''those who want to heal''?????
It's as tiring as watching young children constantly change costumes while they try to figure out which game to play.
You know I can't continue to post.
Eventually I have to stop responding because I have a life.
I need some assurance that...this time...when I leave off posting for a while....the collective group will not morph into the players of another ''we hate Sallie'' play.
Stop.
Really.
Just stop.
Even if it is a burning desire to spew out one more poodle like....''ha ha we hate you'' bark...just don't.
Really.
Just stop.
I have to stop responding so stop trying to dis credit me.
Re: Jack Hickman
Posted by:
daddylonglegs
()
Date: October 29, 2009 11:13AM
I never meant to imply that I feel free- far from it- only that I don't see my life as meaningless. But I also still have the family relationships. That could change in an instant if my feelings were known by those close to me. I am still considered "active", as it seems a few others on here are, and no, I have no interest in who has "defected" beyond that it is extremely helpful to know that others feel the same way. Seriously, there are times I've wondered if there was something wrong with me for questioning things when everyone around me seems so secure in what is going on. I've often wondered if it's just me- if I'm missing something spiritual in myself because I didn't feel things falling into place.
Even if some of us knew eachother's identity, what would it matter? We would still be continuing on the way we have been, "hiding", because we DO have so much to lose.
I have friendships outside of the group, but it's a double-edged sword. No matter how close I become to someone, there is a limit because I know I can't be completely open or honest. I wouldn't dream of telling anyone about what I or my family is involved in because one- i try to respect other's wishes to remain secret, and I would just appear crazy anyway. So, I can't become to close to anyone "outside", and I cannot become too close to anyone on the "inside". That in itself is extremely isolating, and depressing at times.
As I read posts on here from people who have been/are involved, things start to really hit home. Maybe I haven't completely come to terms with how my own life has been affected, and I am beginning to. As beliefs began eroding, I have handled it by feeling detached- not allowing the emotional aspect of it touch me because I have nowhere to put it. I do not have the ability to let go of whatever superficial relationship I do have with my family- at least right now. So, Two Worlds, I think it would affect me greatly to speak out, and I don't plan on it any time in the near future.
Even if some of us knew eachother's identity, what would it matter? We would still be continuing on the way we have been, "hiding", because we DO have so much to lose.
I have friendships outside of the group, but it's a double-edged sword. No matter how close I become to someone, there is a limit because I know I can't be completely open or honest. I wouldn't dream of telling anyone about what I or my family is involved in because one- i try to respect other's wishes to remain secret, and I would just appear crazy anyway. So, I can't become to close to anyone "outside", and I cannot become too close to anyone on the "inside". That in itself is extremely isolating, and depressing at times.
As I read posts on here from people who have been/are involved, things start to really hit home. Maybe I haven't completely come to terms with how my own life has been affected, and I am beginning to. As beliefs began eroding, I have handled it by feeling detached- not allowing the emotional aspect of it touch me because I have nowhere to put it. I do not have the ability to let go of whatever superficial relationship I do have with my family- at least right now. So, Two Worlds, I think it would affect me greatly to speak out, and I don't plan on it any time in the near future.
Re: Jack Hickman
Posted by:
Sallie
()
Date: October 29, 2009 11:23AM
Brainwashed,
In response to your assertion that ''this forum is not yours''
I would ask ''whose is it?''
In response to your statement that : ''It is my opinion that you should never ask for personal email addresses, or make statements (on a forum that is designed to hide peoples identity) "why dont we just email each other" I have seen a user kicked off this forum for doing so. ''
I would ask ''since you know I never asked for an email address why would you type that?''
In response to your statementIf ... you are trying to have an adult conversation, or tone down a possibly heated discussion - dont use the word "battle"
I would ask ''how do you have the authority to tell me which word I can and cannot use?''
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/29/2009 11:24AM by Sallie.
In response to your assertion that ''this forum is not yours''
I would ask ''whose is it?''
In response to your statement that : ''It is my opinion that you should never ask for personal email addresses, or make statements (on a forum that is designed to hide peoples identity) "why dont we just email each other" I have seen a user kicked off this forum for doing so. ''
I would ask ''since you know I never asked for an email address why would you type that?''
In response to your statementIf ... you are trying to have an adult conversation, or tone down a possibly heated discussion - dont use the word "battle"
I would ask ''how do you have the authority to tell me which word I can and cannot use?''
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/29/2009 11:24AM by Sallie.
Re: Jack Hickman
Posted by:
Sallie
()
Date: October 29, 2009 11:34AM
One of the greatest and yet most difficult triumphs in my recovery from the cult which was originated under the leadership of Jack Hickman is that I became fearless while telling the truth. It was and is still liberating. During my years in the cult I was always being lied to, lied about but worse...I was taught that I should lie.
Perhaps being taught that I should lie were the worst psychological assaults.
It was as if...at times...when I would tell the truth about anything...whether it was my past or my present day emotions...I would become fearful.
Imagine?
While others were being taught to fear if they told a lie, I was made to fear if I told the truth.
In the back of my mind there was always the threat of some form of punishment.
Finally it happened.
I was tossed out of my home at one point and at another point cut off from my family.
Then it was over.
And I felt relieved.
It's a belief that I have that God was watching over me the whole time.
It seems that while I was having worldly possessions and relationshiops torn from me...that God was quietly waiting in the wings to replace everything. That's what I believe happened.
I don't lie and I have very little tolerance for lies. I just call people to the carpet becasue in my mind....forcing people to be truthful....is an act of love.
Perhaps being taught that I should lie were the worst psychological assaults.
It was as if...at times...when I would tell the truth about anything...whether it was my past or my present day emotions...I would become fearful.
Imagine?
While others were being taught to fear if they told a lie, I was made to fear if I told the truth.
In the back of my mind there was always the threat of some form of punishment.
Finally it happened.
I was tossed out of my home at one point and at another point cut off from my family.
Then it was over.
And I felt relieved.
It's a belief that I have that God was watching over me the whole time.
It seems that while I was having worldly possessions and relationshiops torn from me...that God was quietly waiting in the wings to replace everything. That's what I believe happened.
I don't lie and I have very little tolerance for lies. I just call people to the carpet becasue in my mind....forcing people to be truthful....is an act of love.
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