Fallen wrote..

Sallie, we're here now discussing the nature of this group as it stands today. We weren't around in the 70s. We're facing different problems, and it frustrates us for people to focus around what "members" did decades ago, when many of the "MEMBERS" YOU SPEAK OF WHERE MERELY TWISTED TEENS and are long gone. The majority of us have not been affected by such events (we were unaware they had taken place), and they most certainly are not the norm.

In the closer circles, we were abused on a psychological level, with strict yet bizarre rules, absurd beliefs that were very divisive. It has torn families apart, in broad day light and many members now facing suicidal thoughts at the implications of it all; what have lent themselves to, what have they done to their children, what does this say about their life, etc. The sexual abuse no longer exists, (nor has it ever within my lifetime, to my knowledge), but this reality is still a waking hell that
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The article I sent you was about a young man in his 20s. It was about GANG RAPE and I told you he and his brother made a prior attempt toward an ''insider'' who was told to shut up.
He was NOT a teen
He WAS a member of the inner circle Your haughty dismisal of a vile act of sexual assault is INDICATIVE OF THE CULT MENTALITY
your claim that the group has changed is impossible.
Your response to the article which I sent you about gang rape...gang rape...GANG RAPE.... as ''merely twisted teens, (when they were 20 something year old men) is TYPICAL.....
This was the attitude 30 years ago and apparently it is ALSO the attitude today.
You say it wasn't the norm?
You mean it wasn't the norm t towards outsiders...
Your whining because of the psychological abuse of strict kosher of vegetarian type rules??????????????? You say that is the only sort of abuse????? Ridiculous. Every culture has strict laws to adhere to and no one jumps off a bridge because of it....
s ''psychological abuse'' is telling a victim of sexual assault to shut up and it is
it is a ''strict yet bizzarre rule '' that one should ''shut up'' about an assault because . .
1-no one saw it
2- these things don't really happen a lot
3- The assailant is an important person
4-the assailant is not important
5-Letting go is part of forgiveness, love and recovery
6-You are part of us
7- You are not a part of us
8- You are attacking the group
9- You should fear the group
10- No one will believe you and you will get hurt and we will not help you when you are cast out
11- Everyone will believe you and we will be destroyed and you will be lost without us
12- We're a small and harmless group that you might hurt
13- We're a large and threatening group that you should fear



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/28/2009 05:34AM by Sallie.

Fallen 49r wrote.....
it frustrates us for people to focus around what "members" did decades ago, when many of the "members" you speak of where merely twisted teens and are long gone.
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Fallen you are referring to the article I sent into your box(as per your request). The article was about a member who was accused by an ''outsider'' of gang rape and my commentary to you was that this same member and his twin attempted that type of assault on an ''insider'' one year prior and that the ''insider'' was told to shut up.
Thank you.
Thank you very much for your interpretation of the event.
My point has been made.....
Now please, let me have my last word for now so I can stop being drawn into this ..............
Then you can spend a few weeks with your friends chatting and recreating the image of what this group is....
Let it die for now...
Really....

Sallie,

We just don't know what to say to you, especially when your posts are so defensive towards us. We're try to say "that's not where it really stands today though" and you ostracize us. We never raped anyone, nor did we ever let someone else be raped, so stop attacking us and trying to say "SEE, THESE PEOPLE THINK RAPE IS ACCEPTABLE, THEY THINK I SHOULD SHUT UP. LOOK HOW CULT-LIKE THESE PEOPLE ARE!!11" We're not saying anything of that sort, we don't know what you want us to say. The police have handled those situations, and to my knowledge, it's a thing of the past. If you want retribution, contact the members involved. Call Gary yourself, or whoever you feel is responsible. Because... we get it... you're really pissed off and want an explanation. We can't offer you one.

My Good Name, daddylonglegs, Two Worlds, etc are all addressing the more broad aspect of the cult and where it stands today, which is mental abuse, and the consequences thereof. We're watching this thing fall apart, and it's taking entire families with it. Some of have tremendous fears about how these events will play out.

Sallie,

Here it is... plain and simple. You cannot claim to know how the children of a 40-year-old cult think and act, based only on the isolated events carried out by the generation you knew. We are in a different situation and the problem has evolved. We are still victims, but of a different crime, and it's more subtle than rape.

To claim that people must be getting raped and molested rampantly throughout the group to this day, and claiming that change in people is impossible, is a sign of how little you know about what kind of people make up this group today. When you stand from the outside and suggest that you know for a fact that Gary has raped us, that he knocked up Lynn with a TURKEY BASTER, or that we look the other way when people are assaulted on a regular basis, it makes our eyes roll.

And to be clear, I'm not belittling the damage sustained by those assaulted in the past, I'm simply saying... It's a different state of affairs. Again, if you want retribution, call those responsible, we're not in group because we think it's acceptable, we're here because we were born into it, and we're struggling with what do to do about it...

OK good let's talk. How could this family have escaped the ''cycle of abuse'' that is typical of all families.
Let's not call it sexual abuse. Let's call it alcoholism.
OK
If my ancestors were heavy drinkers and I wasn't then I would have a believable explanation. I would be able to explain how the cycle ended. I might say that I am a tee totler or I joined AA or that I don't live near them....there would be an explanation for the difference...
Does that make sense?
For a three year period in my life I witnessed more cases of sexual assault against young girls then I ever saw for the next 30 years that followed.
It was during my time in this group.
All of the perpetrators and all of the victims stayed in the group when it came time to re-build.
Two of the perpetrators ended up in trouble with the law when they assaulted ''outsiders''.

Do the math.
I'm serious.
The numbers.
Numbers don't lie.
Disregard my memories and let's look at the fact that two ..... just two... of the group's re-builders encountered trouble with the law for sex assault. OK? Let's just focus on that.
Now let's just add Jack and that's three.
OK
Just three.....
Never mind the untold stories that I babble on about.
Let's just add up the numbers.
OK
Three.
So only 3 members we can say for a fact ever did any sex assaults that got them into trouble with outsiders.
These 3 men hung in there after the article in 1981 bout JH. In fact one of the men was JH>
OK.
So only 3 of the men who stayed to rebuild the church after the devasting Newsday article were ever investigated by outsiders for sexual assault.
Fine.
Let's do some math.
How many adult men were there who stayed to help rebuild?
If it's 100 men than 3 percent of the men who stayed to re build the group after it's fall were investigated by outsiders for sexual assault. Let's be generous and say that as many as 300 adult men stayed to rebuild. Ok...that would still be 1 per cent. That's a lot.
Now I'm saying that I know every one of those ''re builders'' and there was more going on. Let's give me that. Let's say that I am telling the truth.
What changed?
What attitudes about sexual relationships changed among the re-builders?

Fallen,
Also ... not to be rude but... don't be rollin your eyes at me girlfriend....I mean it....

Also, I want to apologize for the turkey baster comment. I was trying to provoke some real raw emotion in order to make the conversation a little more real. I think it worked.

More math....
Factor this into our 1-3 percent equation....
!) The fact that the group remains seperate should have MINIMIZED the NUMBER of encounters with outsiders,
2) The fact that this was ''decades ago'' means we are referring to a time period where sex crimes were LESS
likely to be investigated.

I understand that groups, families, organizations change. So how has yours changed?

Fallen,
Now really let's end this battle. I told my story. Let it go. If you continue to try to discredit my views I will continue my ''defensive'' posture toward what I say is true. If you continue to create what I know are diversions then I will continue to ''attack'' what I believe are lies.
It won't help.
Let it go and leave me be. I said my peace. Let it rest. You have plenty of time to tell a different story because I can't spend the rest of my life posting on this board.
But please, tell your story without dis crediting mine.
Can we agree to that?

Sallie,
Every time someone tries to tell their story, you attack them. The only person I have seen try to discredit another person on here is you. Over and over. What's with the repeated post over and over earlier? Seems to me like an attempt to intimidate another person to keep them from telling their perspective because it doesn't agree with yours. [...]

[Moderator note: Please don't post personal attacks, which against the rules]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/28/2009 09:50PM by rrmoderator.