Fallen,
Homosexuality is not illegal. I don't think there was ever a complaint made against Jack because he was attracted to men.

Co orcing young adults into sexual acts is illegal. I actually do see this group as a sexual assault club. Not a 'homo'sexual assault club...but a club where the sexual boundaries of young people are crossed. I am sure many peoplee don't. But I do. There may be others from my generation who are ''out'', and who feel the same. My four closest female friends remained. So did many aquaintances of mine, females.....children....
But I suspect there may be some men from my generation who are out and who can corroborate my feelings.....
The 15 yr old boy that I spoke of. He's no longer in the group....
Maybe there are more like him.....

Two Worlds
Date Added: 09/25/2009
Posts: 10 Re: Jack HickmanYes, we have met and your rant supports what I said.

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OMG. All of a sudden I am not 14 and I am not the least bit intimidated. I'm grieved in my spirit....
I almost have the feeling that I should be apologizing to an aging friend .......I feel so re-connected on a completely different level. Why?
This is truly inexplicable.
If someone gave me one milllion dollars to trust a person who I knew when I was involved in Jack Hickman's group...I couldn't. Friendship is built on trust. It stands to reason that I had no real friends during that time. In addition, I have learned to trust many other people since then and have many real friends who I genuinely trust. Yet for some strange reason that post leaves me with this inexplicable feeling that you were a non intimidating person who I should trust. How is this possible?

I too was "born into" this group, and have remained involved over the years, thouh off and on for the most part. My family is mostly still involved. I have been reading this thread for a couple years now, as has other "involved" people that I know. I have several issues with this group, and appreciate the forum to talk about them, and experiences. However, I know for a fact a couple people who have held back from sharing precisely because of the type of personal attack from "Sallie" on "two Worlds" above. You may disagree based on **your** long- past experiences with this group, but others experiences may not be the same- as mine is not.
I have many mixed feeling about the beliefs and such, and would love the chance to share and get feedback- as I have appreciated what others- especially those more recently involved, have shared.

Despite my issues with the group as a whole, I have to agree with Fallen49er- I have never seen or heard any innapropriate behavior by Gary or anyone else for that matter, like what "Sallie" has been implying. I can't speak for the early years- as I didn't care then, being young, but I can speak for what I know.

I'm trying to understand why ''involved'' members who want to ''share'' don't just email one another. This is a thread entitled Abusive and Controlling relationships which began with a post by a woman who claimed her nephews had been abused and we are on a forum entitled Cult Education.
You think that by posting about past experiences of abuse on a thread called ''abusive and controlling relationships'', and by calling a group a ''cult'' on a forum entitled Cult Education....I have done something wrong?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/27/2009 05:45AM by Sallie.

People don't refrain from joining the Nazi party because Hitler wrote Mein Kemp.
In the end what matters is that Hitler was a mass murderer. By following the Nazi party a person is approving of Hitler, not what he thought....what he did.....
It matters what people do....
And if no one cares about the 30 year history of Shorsh Yashi then why travel to Spain and have extensive teachings about what happened a milenium ago?

This is my experience. Over the course of thirty plus years I have been a part of this group. After the break-up we stayed. Even at that time I did not accept the claims JH made about himself. Over the years that JH was in hiding, we were also very involved. I won’t even explain how. I no longer believe in lineage teachings, that I need to store food on a mountain top, that anyone knows when the world will end, or that my closest family members are princes. Yet over the years my identity has been built around this larger family or group or cult. I would not even begin to be able to say, “I am leaving this group and I no longer believe the founding teachings. ” The reason is that despite knowing that these things are not true, I have been thoroughly formed or perhaps indoctrinated by all of this. That is the nature of a cult. The manipulation and brainwashing defies logic. I would not even know who I was, if totally cut off from this group. I have my identity intertwined with it all. I know it has caused a very severe and profound disillusionment in my children, yet still only a tiny part of me is able to face the huge nature of all this.
In 1999 a friend of mine who left, sent me a long description of the traits and characteristics of a cult leader. A fear and dread spread through me. I could not tell my closest loved ones of this new understanding but gradually they did come to recognize this as well. I would describe the state of affairs these days as don’t ask, don’t tell. Many people who no longer believe the original teachings of this group are still involved. We are also Jewish. The practice of Judaism is a completely separate issue from how we came to Judaism. This causes some of the contorted confusion for many people. This part of what was taught, is what we do believe to this day.
Beyond all of this, I care about these people as family members. I care deeply about Gary as if he were in fact a family member. I listen to his teachings and know of the depths of his spirituality. And yet even as I say that, I know that JH taught my children severely damaging teachings that brought them to an almost delusional level . The devastation it has caused us is beyond words. That is the nature of an abusive and controlling cult, for me and those I am close to. Even writing these words causes me to cry.

HI Two Worlds,
I am really done with the thread because of time restraints. I've already spent too much.
So.
I feel much better.
You are saying that this is a cult and you are defining cult as ''a group of close knit persons with different beliefs''
You are saying there is abuse but you describe it as ''making people feel pessimistic about the future''.
OK
Well chat away
I won't bother you with my one ideas and memories of cultish abuse
You guys talk and share as you've been doing since the inception of this thread
I'm sorry to hear that you sometimes have meloncholy days and that it bumbed out memberes that the world hasn't ended yet or that they're not ruling the world as princes....
That sounds awful.....
And honestly...this is my last post.....

Hi Sallie, I don't want to see you leave the post. I am not saying my struggle is the only struggle. I am not in anyway minimizing your suffering. This group has far reaching devastating effects, some subtle, and diffiuclt for others to recognize as mine, and some balatently obvious as yours. I hope you will continue to share. Perhaps we can offer hope to each other or others on the post. That is my hope: healing, understanding of all involved. I hope you won't minimize my story to simply feeling a pesimistic. It is soul crushing. Two Worlds

Quote
Sallie
HI Two Worlds,
I am really done with the thread because of time restraints. I've already spent too much.
So.
I feel much better.
You are saying that this is a cult and you are defining cult as ''a group of close knit persons with different beliefs''
You are saying there is abuse but you describe it as ''making people feel pessimistic about the future''.
OK
Well chat away
I won't bother you with my one ideas and memories of cultish abuse
You guys talk and share as you've been doing since the inception of this thread
I'm sorry to hear that you sometimes have meloncholy days and that it bumbed out memberes that the world hasn't ended yet or that they're not ruling the world as princes....
That sounds awful.....
And honestly...this is my last post.....

Sallie, I hope you don't leave the conversation. I am not saying my struggle is more, or better or worse than yours. I hope you do not continue to interpret it that way. Some mind control is difficult to see as is some inner trauma. I recognize your pain and suffering. I am not trying to minimize it.
I hope you can recognize mine.

Quote
Sallie
I'm sorry to hear that you sometimes have meloncholy days and that it bumbed out memberes that the world hasn't ended yet or that they're not ruling the world as princes....
That sounds awful.....
And honestly...this is my last post.....

Sallie, we're here now discussing the nature of this group as it stands today. We weren't around in the 70s. We're facing different problems, and it frustrates us for people to focus around what "members" did decades ago, when many of the "members" you speak of where merely twisted teens and are long gone. The majority of us have not been affected by such events (we were unaware they had taken place), and they most certainly are not the norm.

In the closer circles, we were abused on a psychological level, with strict yet bizarre rules, absurd beliefs that were very divisive. It has torn families apart, in broad day light and many members now facing suicidal thoughts at the implications of it all; what have lent themselves to, what have they done to their children, what does this say about their life, etc. The sexual abuse no longer exists, (nor has it ever within my lifetime, to my knowledge), but this reality is still a waking hell that continues to strain relationships and incite anger.