For a long time, I had a problem with the label of "cult" on this group. Looking back now, I absolutely see Hickman as a cult leader. He had a gift for reading people- he knew how to take advantage of peoples insecurities, and he was charismatic. As someone mentioned earlier he would bring something to the table, and let people take it where they wanted. So the direction it took was often based on the personalities of the members. What made him a cult leader was the followers. People would do whatever JH said, or what they thought he said- as he was very clever in never actually "telling" anyone what to do. I believe most people are very sincere in wanting a relationship with God, and JH was teaching the "truth". I was a beleiver. I did question things to myself- but one thing I kept being drawn back to is that JH himself never actually claimed to be a prophet, or the Messiah, as many cult leaders do. He claimed to be a descendant of Jesus, but claimed there were many out there. That changed when I heard he claimed to be the reincarnation of Jacob several years back. That was just a little bit too much to swallow. But, as Two Worlds has said, my entire identity was entwined with this group- my whole family is a part of it. While the beliefs are easy to walk away from, the relationships aren't.

I see the present circumstances a bit differently. Things have changed and evolved from one generation to another. First, there's no more JH. While there are a handfull of the "youth" who were loyal to him, they seem like the minority. Most of the kids, who are getting married and having families of their own, seem to have a different mindset. The older generation- mainly the 50+ crowd, still have that "cult" mentality. JH is gone, and there is noone in his place. Some see Gary as the leader, but it's a position he has never claimed to have, nor does he act in the same manner as JH, in my opinion. I think it's the older generation who have replaced JH with him in their own minds because they need that "leader" or they are just lost.
For the most part, the younger generation share the relationships, but not so much the beliefs. Maybe I am wrong, but its what I see. Labeling it a "cult" at this point seems innacurate, at least as far as I understand the definition of Cults. For one, it is lacking a leader. Two- there's no real oranization of any kind. there are many little clusters of people in areas, but there is no compound of people living and working together like there was in say, Waco, or the FLDS group. Almost all the children go to public schools. Almost all go to college. Everyone has their own house, have regular jobs, live their own lives. Even beliefs differ. Some (most of the 50+ers) are vegetarian. Some are not. Some follow rabbinic Judaism. Some don't. Some are liberal democrats, some are conservative republicans. The "youth" are in many different directions. Some marry from within, as they have had lifelong rlationships. Some marry from outside- college sweethearts, coowrkers, whatever. Ther are some in the armed forces, some in law enforcement, many varied professions. And From what I see, most people are very successful in whatever direction they chose. While there are the extremests, I don't see most people holing up waiting for the world to end.

Maybe I have ben more sheltered than some. I think some kids might have issues as they've been taught they are somehow different than others, or more special, or knowing a truth that most don't. I think some have been affected by having to hide beliefs because of possible persecution. is definately an "us vs them" mentality. It's a lot to grapple with, though I think the level of difficulty kids have depends on their family, and its level of functioning.

I have never ever seen any kind of sexual behavior whatsoever- or any kind of physical abuse in my lifetime. That's not to deny what others say they may have experienced- I just don't see that at all. I also don't believe there is a soul who would stand by and allow any of there children to be abused or violated in any way. I certainly wouldn't.

Two Worlds, what do you mean by disillusionment in your children? I am curious as to what you mean- are you talking about the fear of the future, or the self-identity they were taught- as far as being special?

Two Worlds,
omg how sweet. No it's just that I have one of those obsessive personalities and sometimes I have to turn off the computer so I don't spend all day typing.....of course I still want to read what everyone has to say but I can't engage in chat....
I'll just say this,
When I first left the group so many decades ago I saw it as you describe........a little controlling, a little harsh, some positive aspects.....
It wasn't until after I spent decades inter acting with others and completely free of the mind control that I was able to look back with that 20/20 hind sight. Now I re think events and I'm like... ''o m g''.....that was really twisted and I never even knew it......!!!!!!!!!!''
Your slight discomfort is reflective of the same ''slight discomfort'' that I felt 30 years ago.
You have not minimized my feelings and I hope I have not minimized yours. You use the same soft and vague language that I once used... My harshness towards the vaguely accepting sounding words used by those still involved reflect my own inner workings. What I mean is that , I was only able to ''wake from the dream'' of this cult influence after sort of...symbolically giving my memories a cold splash of water......
30 years ago as a ''present tense player'', I used the cult language to assess and discern behavior. Now as a ''past tense player'' or, as one who has ''awakened from the dream'', I want to splash water and shout ''wake up''.....everytime I hear or read the old cult style language....soft, vague.
I believe this is at the core of the tension that the ''two types'' of posters feel.
But everyone has the right to grow and change at their own pace.

Does that make sensse?
I only meant to explain why I was going to stop posting because I didn't want to appear as if I've been chased off.
I should have said ''I'm going to take a break for a while'' and I should have used less sarcasm.
I will certainly join in the chat again. Your insight and perspective are incredibly valuable and please forgive my expressions of frustration.

Fallen 49r wrote.....
it frustrates us for people to focus around what "members" did decades ago, when many of the "members" you speak of where merely twisted teens and are long gone.
====================================================================
Fallen you are referring to the article I sent into your box(as per your request). The article was about a member who was accused by an ''outsider'' of gang rape and my commentary to you was that this same member and his twin attempted that type of assault on an ''insider'' one year prior and that the ''insider'' was told to shut up.
Thank you.
Thank you very much for your interpretation of the event.
My point has been made.....
Thank you.......

Fallen 49r wrote.....
it frustrates us for people to focus around what "members" did decades ago, when many of the "members" you speak of where merely twisted teens and are long gone.
====================================================================
Fallen you are referring to the article I sent into your box(as per your request). The article was about a member who was in his 20s and accused by an ''outsider'' of gang rape and my commentary to you was that this same member and his twin attempted that type of assault on an ''insider'' one year prior and that the ''insider'' was told to shut up.
Thank you.
Thank you very much for your interpretation of the event.
My point has been made.....
Thank you.......
The article refered to a member in his 20s
It was gang rape...
You say it was just some ''twisted teen''......thing.......



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/28/2009 04:03AM by Sallie.

Fallen 49r wrote.....
it frustrates us for people to focus around what "members" did decades ago, when many of the "members" you speak of where merely twisted teens and are long gone.
====================================================================
Fallen you are referring to the article I sent into your box(as per your request). The article was about a member who was in his 20s and accused by an ''outsider'' of gang rape and my commentary to you was that this same member and his twin attempted that type of assault on an ''insider'' one year prior and that the ''insider'' was told to shut up
Are you tired of this post?
Should I ''shut up''??????????????

Fallen 49r wrote.....
it frustrates us for people to focus around what "members" did decades ago, when many of the "members" you speak of where merely twisted teens and are long gone.
====================================================================
Fallen you are referring to the article I sent into your box(as per your request). The article was about a member who was in his 20s and accused by an ''outsider'' of gang rape and my commentary to you was that this same member and his twin attempted that type of assault on an ''insider'' one year prior and that the ''insider'' was told to shut up.
Thank you.
Thank you very much for your interpretation of the event.
My point has been made.....
Thank you.......
The article refered to a member in his 20s
It was gang rape...
You are ALL frustrated to hear me talk about it? I would want to get a gang of membets ''frustrated''??????
It would almost scare me to ''frustrate'' all of you.
I guess I won't mention it again.....

Quote
daddylonglegs
I kept being drawn back to is that JH himself never actually claimed to be a prophet, or the Messiah, as many cult leaders do. He claimed to be a descendant of Jesus, but claimed there were many out there.

He did actually. I was there when one of his "prophecies" was read by Gary and he claimed to be the reincarnation of Jacob and Abraham Abulafia.

Quote
daddylonglegs
That changed when I heard he claimed to be the reincarnation of Jacob several years back. That was just a little bit too much to swallow.

Im sorry, I missed this part.

I agree with you daddylonglegs. At this point in time I would call this group, a waning cult due to the loss of it's master manipulator. I do feel Gary has, without words taken over leadership of the group. He has done it in a JH style, without saying it. He teaches at all locations and meets with everyone when he travels to each location. People definitely do live in two main locations, one of which is “compound like”, with a couple of other locations. Gary visits all locations regularly. He receives and accepts the tithe. He is the "high priest" and the first born son and heir. That title alone says it all, without having to make an announcement. In his teachings he frequently refers to JH in order to keep the group founder and his teachings alive in the mind of all who hear the teachings. He frequently states things along the lines of, the man who had such special knowledge and passed it along to us, etc. I don't know if he does that part totally consciously, but it keeps things alive to followers. Besides all that he teaches very well, with great spiritual depth. There are also ongoing studies that are studies of the different teachings JH has given over the course of his life. One of the definitions of a cult is that the teachings of the group are built around the teachings of a single man who is held in an exalted position. Dead or alive this occurs.
There are many young people who marry and have careers outside but who have been severely emotionally hurt, damaged, brainwashed and have identity issues, whether they say they have left or whether they don't. When I say my children have been disillusioned it is because they were at a vulnerable age when JH began teaching again after years in hiding. They were, as you said taught to believe they were special, they are a royal priesthood, that they were princes in this priesthood, that their souls were specially chosen by JH when he ascended into heaven and met with Yeshua. He told them many, many more things along this line. They came home from one of these retreats flying high, like they were on drugs. To come to the slow realization over the years that this is the manipulation and control of a cult leader is devastating and leaves you asking who am I really and is like crashing out of the sky and hitting the ground at full force.
It may be true that the older people are more likely to cling to the old beliefs but the younger people are equally or more harmed and disillusioned with identity issues because of these things, because of what they believed and what they are no longer are able to believe. I also never saw any physical or sexual abuse. This is group is held together by grandiose teachings and almost delusional ideas, not sexual or physical abuse or punishment. Abuse of that type was not taught and would not be condoned.

You are right, Sallie, my words are soft and vague. They are the words of someone who has made a conscious decision not to claim a new identity. There is no purpose for anger under those conditions. However, it is not a "slight discomfort' that I feel. It is a thorough complete despair and sorrow over which I feel powerless, helpless and hopeless, not for so much for myself but because of the effects of this on my loved ones.