'skepticabout',

Thank your wife for being upfront about 'not loving you for the last 3 years'. She sounds to me like she admitted responsibility, and I would acknowledge her for that rather than blame her.

The Landmark Forum only deals with transformation at the individual level. E.g. you find out insights about yourself, your own persistent complaints about others, what has been 'bugging you' in life, etc, and you work through those issues - because it was your interpretation of reality that drove you to those conclusions.

I personally took the Forum about 2 years ago, and delayed my advanced course for as long as I could, before I was able to sort out through my own b.s. toward my wife of 7 years. I admitted to her all the ways I was being inauthentic toward her, and basically an asshole to her. She couldn't believe what she was hearing coming out of my big mouth, and broke in tears after I acknowledged myself as being responsible for all the offensive stuff I have told and done to her, and was able to forgive me.

What made it available for me to relate to my wife as someone whom I love, and someone who is independent of me, in her choices and her thoughts, emotions, direction in life, etc was actually the "Advanced Course", which enabled me to relate to others at a level of the group. Eversince the Advanced Course, I've been able to improve my work productivity 10 fold, stay focused on tasks, instead of b.s.-ing and complaining about my circumstances at work or in life, my wife has almost completely stopped complaining about how I am because she noticed that I now accept and love her FAR MORE than ever before, and she is now open and exited about us having children, whereas before she was a bit reserved on the topic .... I've been married for 7 years and am committed to my marriage lasting until death do us part and I love my wife more than I love myself.

I definitely think you should _openly communicate_ with your wife, without sounding accusatory toward her, and try to get into her world and understand her reality before you even say anything to her that you might possibly regret. Having gone through the Forum, you know by now that complaining isn't going to get you anywhere, but accepting others for who they are, regardless of the choices they make and how they "impact" us, is the true path to living powerfully and responsibly. Tell your wife you LOVE her, and acknowledge her for being true to her feelings with you. My suggestion is - sign up for the advanced course, and I guarantee you will see your wife in a whole new way that you may not have been able to before.

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skepticabout
Hello all.
Nettie; truly apprecite you sharing your experience in LE.

I am a little out of sorts lately..My wife has taken LE on and is truly deeply involved.
she will be commencing her ILP within the next couple of weeks.
Our relationship is in trouble and has been for the last 6 months when she surprised me by saying that I have caused her a lot of distress during our marriage and that she has not loved me for the last 3 years. (we have 2 kids 9 and 8) and for them I am committed to live a crappy life if need be.
I am concerned over the fact that I do believe she has changed and is not the person I know,.her actions seem different and inauthentic (kinda fake). She uses all of the LE jargon all of the time.
I have taken the forum and did not proceed further (no current intentions to do so).
my inquiry is whether or not anyone has any good advise on if I should meddle into her direction. or is there a good way to ask her to review her direction without "WRONGING" her.
or is it just better for me to stay out of the way and let her figure it out.

Nettie, I took the Landmark Forum as well as the Advanced course, and I heard no one say to me that I should "hate" my old self.

I did however hear that I should be informed by the past, rather than allow myself be affected by it - and the past 'self', if you so choose to call it, is still present for me. I'm still a bit of an asshole, but at least I recognize it fast enough before it bites me in the ass with my boss, friends, family, etc. In other words, my words are chosen now, rather than spewed, whereas before I was just spewing them, instead of choosing them wisely before I open my mouth and say something.

The way you relate to your old self is by accepting that it is there, and by making an intellectual effort to not recreate it as you move forward in life. E.g. if your "old self" was dismissive of your boss because he "did X Y or Z to you to make you unhappy at work", you should recognize that, and your "new self" should go to your boss and say, "Look, I may have said X Y or Z in the past that pissed you off, and I want you to know that I am sorry, I ask for your forgiveness and my old way of acting around here stops today".

That's one way of relating to your old self, is by cleaning up the messes your old self left behind. And making sure your old self isn't talking the same type of language through your new self. That's the whole point of the landmark curriculum for living... To leave you out there in life with a new 'self', meaning, new language that leaves others impressed and inspired by who you are, rather than walking away...

I cleaned up with my boss some of the crap I said to him a while back, and the man is now more responsive to me than EVER before. I've been working in this company for 2 years, and am now on my way to project management.... the forum + the advanced course gave me some insights about myself that I am now putting to use daily, everywhere in life....

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nettie
I read in Maurice's thread Landmark Forum revisited (inspired by me :-) ) that one of the things that makes it hard for people to get out of Landmark's clutches is that you are taught during the Forum to "hate" your old self. That is very much to the point. How do you relate to your old self when you know it is full of sh-t? It becomes a big dilemma even if you know what you learned during the forum is bull - they have indoctrinated you to believe that your old self is nothing but a machine running its winning formula/racket.

So when leaving Landmark you have an identity that is split in two; your pre self and your landmark self. You're going to have to sort through this dilemma to get back your sense of an integrated self.

pragmatist:

You and Landmark Education are no substitute for professional and credible help.

Please spare us the Landmark verbiage, e.g. "authentic," "inauthentic," "responsibility" etc.

You sound like a seminar tape and the seminars you are reciting have no success that can be measured objectively.

A credible source for help regarding personal relationships would be consulting with a professional counselor that is board certified, licensed and accountable.

Other meaningful resources would be to discuss personal concerns with trusted family members and close friends.

The Forum didn't seem to do Werner Erhard much good with his own family relationships, two failed marriages and estrangements from his children exhibited in a very public meltdown.

And Erhard's gibberish pop philosophy, borrowed from Scientology and Heidegger, is no substitute for good, solid, meaningful help.

You also seem to be doing a good deal of "victim bashing."

That is, blame the victim and never the program that may have caused the injury.

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pragmatist
Nettie, I took the Landmark Forum as well as the Advanced course, and I heard no one say to me that I should "hate" my old self.

er....actually...let's see what you think of your pre-landmark self:

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pragmatist
the past 'self', if you so choose to call it, is still present for me. I'm still a bit of an asshole

and:

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pragmatist
my words are chosen now, rather than spewed, whereas before I was just spewing them

and

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pragmatist
The way you relate to your old self is by accepting that it is there, and by making an intellectual effort to not recreate it....by cleaning up the messes your old self left behind.....And making sure your old self isn't talking

are you sure they didn't make you hate your old self?

:roll: [/quote]

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pragmatist
I cleaned up with my boss some of the crap I said to him a while back, and the man is now more responsive to me than EVER before. I've been working in this company for 2 years, and am now on my way to project management.... the forum + the advanced course gave me some insights about myself that I am now putting to use daily, everywhere in life....

Hi , we know these courses and what you mean, but you could have learnt that in a much less dramatic way and with no income for Landmark Education.

For example, by talking to a good friend who reminds you of your responsibility and that you are talking or thinking badly about your boss.
For some bosses it might even have occured very strange what you have said (the cleaning up nonsense conversation). BTW. it is nerve racking to be at the receiving end of those strange Landmark conversations which are only good for yourself and that you are looking good in your Landmark group.

In the very end it is all for Landmark to meet their statistics of new recruits ... well, you can't see that yet, you are still brain-washed

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pragmatist
Nettie, I took the Landmark Forum as well as the Advanced course, and I heard no one say to me that I should "hate" my old self.

I did however hear that I should be informed by the past, rather than allow myself be affected by it - and the past 'self', if you so choose to call it, is still present for me. I'm still a bit of an asshole, but at least I recognize it fast enough before it bites me in the ass with my boss, friends, family, etc. In other words, my words are chosen now, rather than spewed, whereas before I was just spewing them, instead of choosing them wisely before I open my mouth and say something.

The way you relate to your old self is by accepting that it is there, and by making an intellectual effort to not recreate it as you move forward in life.

Pragmatist: all this sounds very nice and helpful. Of course no one tells you to hate your old self during the courses. Hate would be a racket and a no-no :twisted:

Your way of presenting it sounds like someone who has thought about this within the framework of Landmark thinking. I am thinking with a different framework. Did you get that I have done most of the courses and was an introduction leader for 2 years? Please read the whole thread - I would be glad to see your comments after that. Thank you for your effort though 8)

I got that. What's your reason for being here then?

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nettie
Pragmatist: all this sounds very nice and helpful. Of course no one tells you to hate your old self during the courses. Hate would be a racket and a no-no :twisted:

Your way of presenting it sounds like someone who has thought about this within the framework of Landmark thinking. I am thinking with a different framework. Did you get that I have done most of the courses and was an introduction leader for 2 years? Please read the whole thread - I would be glad to see your comments after that. Thank you for your effort though 8)

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pragmatist
I got that. What's your reason for being here then?

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nettie
Pragmatist: all this sounds very nice and helpful. Of course no one tells you to hate your old self during the courses. Hate would be a racket and a no-no :twisted:

Your way of presenting it sounds like someone who has thought about this within the framework of Landmark thinking. I am thinking with a different framework. Did you get that I have done most of the courses and was an introduction leader for 2 years? Please read the whole thread - I would be glad to see your comments after that. Thank you for your effort though 8)

My reason to be here is to find a way out of the landmark thinking and get my old self back. That would mean to get my self back since I don't think there exists 2 selves. To live with the landmark induced 2 selves-split is pretty awful and has created so much stress.

The stress gets created by thinking in the way you are thinking. Of course it would be very nice to think that I can leave my old self behind. But what happens the day you see that it was a big lie and you cannot blame it on your old self. When your new self has put you in the psychiatric ward?

Is still commend you for trying. But I don't think I've heard the "I got that"
in a while. That's a real funny way of telling someone that you have heard what they have said (RECREATION).

What have you got? What I have written in the thread? Have you gotten anything I've written? If so - what have you got.

My reason for being here is that this forum exists and I find i helpful and interesting. I also hope to save some souls from the LGAT monster - Landmark in particular.

nettie

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nettie
The stress gets created by thinking in the way you are thinking.

So true. The lgat version of self-improvement is the opposite! It's the antithesis of mental health. When I read or hear strategies for mental health I'm struck by how lgats teach the [i:bcbdd3335d]opposite[/i:bcbdd3335d]. I thought of an example yesterday but don't remember it now.

Cognitive approaches discuss all-or-nothing thinking, distorted and magical thinking as things to correct for better mental health. Lgats teach b&w thinking, thought distortion and magical thinking. Another aspect of mental health is cutting back on self-criticism. Lgats teach participants to pick themselves apart, in the name of "self-improvement". Part of self-acceptance is the healthy acknowledgement of feelings. Lgats teach that some feelings are taboo (which is more self-rejection). Empathy is another component of mental health and lgats teach sociopathic disconnection.

Wish I could remember the example I thought about yesterday. Oh well.

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nettie
Is still commend you for trying. But I don't think I've heard the "I got that"
in a while. That's a real funny way of telling someone that you have heard what they have said (RECREATION).

What have you got? What I have written in the thread? Have you gotten anything I've written? If so - what have you got.

My reason for being here is that this forum exists and I find i helpful and interesting. I also hope to save some souls from the LGAT monster - Landmark in particular.

nettie

Hi Nettie -

what I got is your thread. You requested I read your earlier posts - and I did. So here's what I really got - is that you think you somehow was a cause in the choice of your 10th enrollee to commit suicide (the guy with the 2 kids).

It seems to me is what causes you the most trouble is the unanswered question you posted in the thread - "Who/what caused his depression?"

I posit, based on what I've read from you so far, and this is strictly my opinion, that you are bothered by the lack of answer to this question. You are, as they say in psychology/communication schools of thought, in a self-induced state of 'cognitive dissonance' (I don't like this term, but I need some words to describe where you are at).

The way you get out of "it" (whatever "it" is that may be bothering you) is to make a choice - an internal choice - accept the blame for causing the suicide of your friend and move on with life. Or reject the blame, and move on with life.

If you choose to remain "stuck" with the question of who caused it - then that too is a valid choice, but that choice lead you to here, a place where you can 'vent' against Landmark Education - which is fine as well, I doubt anyone from LE cares, however you seem to be the one most affected by your predicament....

So how do you intend on resolving it?

I am not _faking_ anything here - and I do UNDERSTAND how you must feel. But are we going to dwell on that forever or ... what?

Peace out.