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pragmatist


Hi Nettie -

what I got is your thread. You requested I read your earlier posts - and I did. So here's what I really got - is that you think you somehow was a cause in the choice of your 10th enrollee to commit suicide (the guy with the 2 kids).

It seems to me is what causes you the most trouble is the unanswered question you posted in the thread - "Who/what caused his depression?"

I posit, based on what I've read from you so far, and this is strictly my opinion, that you are bothered by the lack of answer to this question. You are, as they say in psychology/communication schools of thought, in a self-induced state of 'cognitive dissonance' (I don't like this term, but I need some words to describe where you are at).

The way you get out of "it" (whatever "it" is that may be bothering you) is to make a choice - an internal choice - accept the blame for causing the suicide of your friend and move on with life. Or reject the blame, and move on with life.

If you choose to remain "stuck" with the question of who caused it - then that too is a valid choice, but that choice lead you to here, a place where you can 'vent' against Landmark Education - which is fine as well, I doubt anyone from LE cares, however you seem to be the one most affected by your predicament....

So how do you intend on resolving it?

I am not _faking_ anything here - and I do UNDERSTAND how you must feel. But are we going to dwell on that forever or ... what?

Peace out.

...Thanks for the typically disgusting Landmark take on the situation. You've revealed both it and yourself, (for accepting, believing, and regurgitating it), in all its simple-minded, pathetic, and arrogant stupidity.

My sympathies to anyone who has the misfortune of crossing your path.


Ellen

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pragmatist
I posit, based on what I've read from you so far, and this is strictly my opinion, that you are bothered by the lack of answer to this question. You are, as they say in psychology/communication schools of thought, in a self-induced state of 'cognitive dissonance' (I don't like this term, but I need some words to describe where you are at).

The way you get out of "it" (whatever "it" is that may be bothering you) is to make a choice - an internal choice - accept the blame for causing the suicide of your friend and move on with life. Or reject the blame, and move on with life.

How can you say that? How could you just say that? you are evil. I can't belive this. Denial is one thing, but this....you make me sick.

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pragmatist
you can 'vent' against Landmark Education - which is fine as well, I doubt anyone from LE cares, however you seem to be the one most affected by your predicament....

No one from LE cares about the people they hurt. REALLY???? :shock: I would never have guessed that!!!

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pragmatist
I am not _faking_ anything here - and I do UNDERSTAND how you must feel. But are we going to dwell on that forever or ... what?

Peace out.

Of course you understand how she must feel. You just don't care.

pragmatist:

You are not qualified to comment on the mental state of anyone.

Like Landmark leaders, you lack the credentials and/or professional licensed status to do so.

Your heartless remarks, other than reminding people what's wrong with Landmrk training, are not helpful here.

And the sing-song repetitive nature of your remarks redundantly chanting Landmark mantras are boring to say the least.

Nettie:

I expect you have completely disregarded pragmatists ignorant and/or stupid posts.

Other than demonstrating the mindlessness that can drive people over the edge within Landmark and/or rip relationships apart outside of the group, they have little if any objective relevance to much of anything.

At best pragmatist is just another Landmark clone.

And Landmark devotees like pragmatist posting here don't negate either your experience or the many other complaints about the destructive effects of Landmark training.

Since my break-up with landmark I have received very little feedback from landmarkian drones. Actually this is one of two attacks on me. So in a sence it is interesting to get this attention for my matter - even though the response is as expected; a landmarker thinking within the framework of a landmarker which means very little is added to the CONVERSATION that we are (according to landmarkians).

I'm fine - this is an expected response to a delicate matter. I would blame Landmark for his suicide. As I wrote before, he became increasingly violent after the forum. They knew about previous suicide attempts but didn't care. I was only an assistant at the time. His participation was decided by the center manager.

A lot of years have since passed and it is now history. Part of HIS STORY eh ? I will always know that I had part in his way of parting with his life and family and that hurts. And it should hurt. It's not a matter of deciding this or that.

I was a landmark drone at the time and not thinking straight unfortunately. They pushed for me to get up the ladder and I thought it was good for me at the time. They (the actual persons) were the leader of the ILP, center manager and enrollment manager. Those persons were pressured from above of course but they know about the history of landmark - suicides and all. But in landmark thinking noone is excempt from the YOU CREATE YOUR OWN REALITY stupidity. So the only respons from a landmarker becomes some wernerism.

nettie

Rick - I am not pretending to offer help, merely commenting on the discussion. Thanks for allowing me to participate. I am a software engineer by virtue, and I never pretended to offer help. Merely words.

Nettie, what's interesting is that you seem to think that Landmark's teachings are very much different than what you experience in life. Does Landmark push personal responsibility (including 'creating your own experience/reality') to the max? Yes. They do. If they were not doing that, then they'd be depriving you of the value they provide - which is making people aware of the impact of their words and actions.

In Landmark terms, or any terms whatsoever, "NO" means NO. If you had chosen to stop your participation when you felt pressured, then why did you not?

If you want to hold Landmark Education responsible for the person who committed suicide, there are proper venues in the USA or the UK to address you complaint - I am sure you are familiar with all of them. Landmark gives everyone an opportunity to recognize something in themselves that may not have helped us in our relationships to other in life or at work - with me, it was my own arrogance and ego which had me readily fail at relationships with numerous women as well as other people (at work or in life). I chose to listen to their message, and put it to use in my own personal life. These few essential changes in my own behavior enabled me to mend and re-establish relationships with people I've pissed off before, because I dropped my own stupid act, apologized, etc.

As far as my mental health, I never had any issues with it - the only issues I had was with the way I acted around other people and just not being privy to it.... LE enables you to see your own act via the exercises we partake in as part of the Forum and the AC....

Did it make me feel nervous afterwards? Yes. Did it make me doubt myself? Yes. Did I think for a while my life was empty and meaningless? Yes... But that's the whole point of the Forum+AC - to get you to THINK about these things. Life does not stop after the Forum - it carries on. You get to choose whether you will ignore the tools you got or not.

I don't know how you want to handle your issue with whom is to blame for the guy's suicide - but telling everyone here about it, isn't going to make it go away. You know this better than I do, especially if you've been through the forum. If you choose to remain in a world of hurt, then I'm sorry. I am bereft of words to share because it seems everyone who has done the Forum, in your opinion, is a 'drone'....

Good luck.

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nettie
I'm fine - this is an expected response to a delicate matter. I would blame Landmark for his suicide. As I wrote before, he became increasingly violent after the forum. They knew about previous suicide attempts but didn't care. I was only an assistant at the time. His participation was decided by the center manager.

A lot of years have since passed and it is now history. Part of HIS STORY eh ? I will always know that I had part in his way of parting with his life and family and that hurts. And it should hurt. It's not a matter of deciding this or that.

I was a landmark drone at the time and not thinking straight unfortunately. They pushed for me to get up the ladder and I thought it was good for me at the time. They (the actual persons) were the leader of the ILP, center manager and enrollment manager. Those persons were pressured from above of course but they know about the history of landmark - suicides and all. But in landmark thinking noone is excempt from the YOU CREATE YOUR OWN REALITY stupidity. So the only respons from a landmarker becomes some wernerism.

nettie

pragmatist,

I am wondering if you understand why your previous post was perceived as heartless and uncaring.

Did Landmark teach you anything about empathy?

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Nettie, what's interesting is that you seem to think that Landmark's teachings are very much different than what you experience in life. Does Landmark push personal responsibility (including 'creating your own experience/reality') to the max? Yes. They do. If they were not doing that, then they'd be depriving you of the value they provide - which is making people aware of the impact of their words and actions.

In Landmark terms, or any terms whatsoever, "NO" means NO. If you had chosen to stop your participation when you felt pressured, then why did you not?

Pragmatist,

Yes landmark 'doctrines' do teach personal responsibility to the max but only when they're accusing their victims..never when landmark itself should be accepting responsibility for its actions, words, rackets, destruction etc....or perhaps landmark is not a personal enough entity to take responsibility.

'No' means 'no' to landmark only when its denying accountability, for anyone else the word 'no' simply means resistance to brainwashing and the lekkie version of 'inauthenticity'.

Why would someone [i:73a0bc9a53]NOT[/i:73a0bc9a53] choose to stop participation?? People don't stop participation when they feel pressured due to that thing you read about so much on this message board, its called coercion and brainwashing.

Do you have any idea how many different ways landmark has caused you to diminish value of your humanity? Your 'coaching' of nettie reeks of stagnant landmarkian thought and is void of emotion common to most human beings. I would be so angry at you for your crap if I didn't pity your present handicap.

Landmark is destroying you in large pieces, how dare you allow that to happen to you, your family or those who were once your friends.

pragmatist:

Like so many LGAT devotees you fail address the core issue.

Is there something wrong with LGATs?

What is it within the dynamics of LGATs systemically, which has repeatedly produced so many casualities, complaints, injuries, lawsuits and bad press?

Blaming those that have been injured isn't a meaningful or practical response.

See [www.culteducation.com]

Landmark is a virtual "poster child" of the problems LGATs so frequently present.

Also see [www.culteducation.com]

This link is to a research paper done by a clinical psychologist. He identifies succinctly what is wrong with "mass marathon training" such as Landmark.

Question Lady, RR and ON 2 LF, have all of you done the Landmark Forum or not? Nettie actually knows that Landmark is about people making a difference in their own and other people's lives, because she's been through it. If you did it - why is it that you came away with these interpretations?

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rrmoderator
pragmatist:

Like so many LGAT devotees you fail address the core issue.

Is there something wrong with LGATs?

What is it within the dynamics of LGATs systemically, which has repeatedly produced so many casualities, complaints, injuries, lawsuits and bad press?

Blaming those that have been injured isn't a meaningful or practical response.

See [www.culteducation.com]

Landmark is a virtual "poster child" of the problems LGATs so frequently present.

Also see [www.culteducation.com]

This link is to a research paper done by a clinical psychologist. He identifies succinctly what is wrong with "mass marathon training" such as Landmark.