Elena,

i think you have a valid point, some of the subjects in the forum are helpful but these are the things you can get else where. Its the language changes and more hidden stuff that is the dangerous stuff. Once they can get one little hook into you, then they can start stuffing more and more of the language and the "technology" into you.

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One thing that the forum leader made sure everyone understood was that
"you cannot win an argument with me".

This is very often adopted by forum graduates - they become "know-it-alls" with whom it is quite impossible to argue with.

This is so true. It used to drive so many of my friends mad when I was a self righteous know it all. Many of the leaders even outside of the courses treat people like they are the know it alls. I lost so much respect while on staff for course leaders over the way they were unwilling to compromise or discuss differences of opinion.

NETTIE!
I am only on the second page of this thread, so I don't know yet how it continuous. But I just HAVE to say: you are writing [i:5ce43948cf]my [/i:5ce43948cf]story! And you write it so brilliantly!!! You put in words [b:5ce43948cf]exactly [/b:5ce43948cf]how it was. Thank you!
(and now back to page 2 and read more!)

I finished reading your postings Nettie, and I still think of them as awesome. I don't know if I could ever explain so clearly what assisting is all about as you did.
I've started a new subject on this forum for myself, but I'll be sure to keep an eye on this thread. Would love to hear more from you in the future.

Rereading part of this thread I remember something, Nettie wrote that the forum leader singles out the participants likely to cause trouble, and that the say you might miss something while going to the bathroom.
One of the statistics kept during the course was who had or had not shared yet... (that is: take the microphone and speak in front of the group). I think there was also a record of someone leaving the room. During breaks these statistics were being discussed with the forum leader. People not sharing were being watched a little more closely since they could interupt the process... OMG.

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One of the statistics kept during the course was who had or had not shared yet... (that is: take the microphone and speak in front of the group). I think there was also a record of someone leaving the room. During breaks these statistics were being discussed with the forum leader. People not sharing were being watched a little more closely since they could interupt the process

This actually is not quite true, there is not a formal keeping of statistics of who has shared, apart from in the advanced course where everyone is expected to share on two occasions. they mark your name off once you have done it.

They do keep an eye on everyone and generally we knew who had "shared" and who hadn't. And notes were passed by staff and course supervisors to the course leader about anyone who we had concerns about.

The only true statistics kepts were in regards to who turned up, who pulled out of the course and who registered into the next programme.

You say "except for the Advanced Course" - there are more exceptions to be made. Sometimes things change over time, which may explain why we have different experiences.

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Europe-girl
You say "except for the Advanced Course" - there are more exceptions to be made. Sometimes things change over time, which may explain why we have different experiences.

At Landmark, they use this "fact" as leverage. They do tinker with the program(ming) and do trim and make adjustments, (something they call "rearranging the furniture" in the cult biz), but at its core, it's the same thing they were offering when Werner Erhard concocted the thing. They still rely on explaining away criticism by pointing out that everyone's ~experience~ is unique (and that most people consider it a "good" one). They imply that if you have a bad experience it's your fault. That's the kicker they picked up from L. Ron Hubbard -- "You ~created~ it," in other words.



Ellen

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sonnie_dee


This is so true. It used to drive so many of my friends mad when I was a self righteous know it all. Many of the leaders even outside of the courses treat people like they are the know it alls. I lost so much respect while on staff for course leaders over the way they were unwilling to compromise or discuss differences of opinion.

I am always heartened to hear things like this. It's an indication that, no matter how effective or how inclusive the brainwashing is, there is still a "parallel" intelligence that recognizes and records the truth -- and it's a universal or general truth, not just a subjective one. There must a be threshold where people just can't tolerate the hypocrisy any more. What a great moment. Remember this bit of cult wisdom?

"If you really want to enslave people, tell them that you're going to give them total freedom." -- L. Ron Hubbard


Ellen

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elena

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sonnie_dee


This is so true. It used to drive so many of my friends mad when I was a self righteous know it all. Many of the leaders even outside of the courses treat people like they are the know it alls. I lost so much respect while on staff for course leaders over the way they were unwilling to compromise or discuss differences of opinion.

I am always heartened to hear things like this. It's an indication that, no matter how effective or how inclusive the brainwashing is, there is still a "parallel" intelligence that recognizes and records the truth -- and it's a universal or general truth, not just a subjective one. There must a be threshold where people just can't tolerate the hypocrisy any more. What a great moment. Remember this bit of cult wisdom?

"If you really want to enslave people, tell them that you're going to give them total freedom." -- L. Ron Hubbard


Ellen

Interesting point, Ellen, re "parallel" intelligence that recognizes and records the truth - a universal or general truth. Like sonnie_dee, I too noticed and was bothered by the hypocrisy of the leaders ("do as I say, not as I do").

We "students" were instructed in the ways of "wisdom": question old beliefs, open to new ones. We were examining our context, our filters. It sounded so good. Until I realized that it was a one-way street.

I noticed there was no forum for discussion or questioning the new beliefs we were being given. It was a red flag for me, because the leaders were not practicing what they preached. Why weren't *their* beliefs (the ones they were inculcating in us) fair game for the same process of examination we were doing with ours?. I certainly had some questions about the new beliefs I was buying into. The price to be part of the group and to get the "rewards" was to go along and not question!

Yes, a parallel intelligence was pointing me to the flaws in the "teachings". Why did I stay? I think the appeal to my psychological/emotional self was stronger than the shortcomings that my cognitive self saw. There is definite trickery involved. Also, some of the "teachings" were designed to give me ways to talk myself out of questioning the BS. Mindgames, mindgames, and more mindgames. That is one thing that lgats teach.

Disgusting scammy lies.

skeptic

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skeptic


Yes, a parallel intelligence was pointing me to the flaws in the "teachings". Why did I stay? I think the appeal to my psychological/emotional self was stronger than the shortcomings that my cognitive self saw. There is definite trickery involved. Also, some of the "teachings" were designed to give me ways to talk myself out of questioning the BS. Mindgames, mindgames, and more mindgames. That is one thing that lgats teach.

Disgusting scammy lies.

skeptic

There is a part of everyone's mind that is the bedrock or foundation. Some call it the subconscious but it's more primal than that. It is formed in the very earliest years of life, mostly the pre-verbal years before age two, when our very most fundamental beliefs about the world and the way things work begin to coalesce. You can imagine a baby with a bad mother will form a very different set of beliefs about the world from the one a baby with a good mother will form. Most of us are lucky enough to have had a good or a pretty good mother, but it's a mixed bag. Even a good mother can be too good and do damage in different ways. As adults, we are mostly operating from these early inchoate impressions, even as we imagine ourselves to be mature, rational, and considerate. Because this part of the mind is formed before language skills mature, it's almost unreachable exept through things like the very deep, regressive, and manipulative suggestive "processes" they do at Landmark. They "rearrange things" at the deepest level of people's minds and personalities. It's shocking that they are able to call what they do "education." At one time they called it "entertainment" (participatory theater). They talk about "putting the past in the past" but they continuously dig around in people's troubled pasts for material to use against them, all in the guise of ~completing~ it. Hah!

There's a chapter in Willa Appel's book about double-binds and the way cults use them to drive people crazy in the same way a bad mother who imagines herself to be a good mother will drive a child crazy. It's the same hypocrisy or paradoxical reality an adult may be able to tolerate but is very difficult for a child to sort out. Because cults are regressive, they utilize the same mechanism for destabilizing their followers and making them increasingly dependent. It's an excellent book, if you haven't read it.


Ellen