Mankind project
Posted by:
ginah
()
Date: May 12, 2006 12:54AM
Thank you what2do for finding this. I had found it and printed a copy and was trying to find it again but have researched and looked at so many places I could not remember where I had found that one.
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what2do
CB, I found a copy of a Form 990 Return of Organization Exempt from Income Tax for the year 2003 of the San Diego organzation. This has been posted on a blog for quite a while. Under the year 2003 there is a statement that says "Open to Public Inspection". I can only assume this means anyone can look at this document.
The total revenue brought in by this one group for 2003 was $2,219,864.00. Total expenses were $2,053,700.00. There was a net assets or fund balances at end of year of $856,386.00. Sounds pretty profitable to me. I am not an accountant, so do not totally understand everything on here. What puzzled me was page 4 of this tax return. It had men's names from all over the country, and Australia where it had paid monies to these men.
If I am correct, and this is the tax form for just one group, I cannot imagine how much monies are generated nationwide.
Google "A Day in the life of an alcoholic". This is a blog. Look for a particular blog titled "nonprofit bullshit". Click on the title of this article and it will take you to this tax return.
Go to my next post, it has the address.
Mankind project
Posted by:
what2do
()
Date: May 12, 2006 02:26AM
CB, I also think their are millions of dollars. Do the math. Many websites state 30,000 men have gone thru training in the US. Multiply that by $550 (it is usually $600, but that gives some leeway). That alone is over 16 million. That does not take into account other countries. It also does not take into account I-group, and all the extended training they urge a person to do.
The husband of a friend of mine has been in MKP for several years. We do not discuss much because she knows how I feel. Until my husband went and I started complaining, I never knew her husband had gone. Last week we were speaking a little about MKP, and she mentioned it was time for them to decide their "contribution" for the year. I asked her if this was a yearly sum, and she said yes, but they are always willing to give as much as they can. Our conversation was interrupted, and I have not been able to get back with her on this, but I will.
We only saw that one tax report. What if each separate organization paid these same directors the same amount of money. Can you imagine what they would be making. I am not saying they do, but I do not believe this is all the money these men are making.
What about the founders of MKP? Do you think they make no monies from this organization. I highly doubt that. Yet, their names were not mentioned in this report. The founders of other LGAT's appear to be very wealthy. Why would the founders of MKP not make any monies off their endeavor? At the end of my husband's weekend, they all had a pep talk on how to recruit other men. All of the emails he receives weekly encourage him to bring men into MKP. That is SO typical of LGAT's. The more recruits, the more money.
You do appear to value integrity. Good for you. It is just some of the stuff is opposite of what they say. For example. My husband was told he HAD to carpool, because their was not enought parking. So MKP arranged for 2 other men to ride with him. His place was on at least 10 acres in the middle of approx. 100 acre tract of land (the 10 acres was DONATED by another MKP person). There was huge areas to park. They wanted to make it very hard for men to leave, so they told a LIE. The entire weekend was started with a lie. True integrity cannot be had within lies.
On the yahoo group I read, the man that started that group has stated he is basically shunned by the men he spent 3 years with. When he left the group, these men were no longer his friends. If they were his friend while he was in the group, what changed. I do not think he started this yahoo group until later, and he has never completely identified himself, so that could not be the reason.
My husband really bonded with his group on his training. He never attended Igroup. He has never received even one phone call from any man saying they missed him, why did he not come, nothing.
I have to cut this short because I need to do some work. Will continue later.
The husband of a friend of mine has been in MKP for several years. We do not discuss much because she knows how I feel. Until my husband went and I started complaining, I never knew her husband had gone. Last week we were speaking a little about MKP, and she mentioned it was time for them to decide their "contribution" for the year. I asked her if this was a yearly sum, and she said yes, but they are always willing to give as much as they can. Our conversation was interrupted, and I have not been able to get back with her on this, but I will.
We only saw that one tax report. What if each separate organization paid these same directors the same amount of money. Can you imagine what they would be making. I am not saying they do, but I do not believe this is all the money these men are making.
What about the founders of MKP? Do you think they make no monies from this organization. I highly doubt that. Yet, their names were not mentioned in this report. The founders of other LGAT's appear to be very wealthy. Why would the founders of MKP not make any monies off their endeavor? At the end of my husband's weekend, they all had a pep talk on how to recruit other men. All of the emails he receives weekly encourage him to bring men into MKP. That is SO typical of LGAT's. The more recruits, the more money.
You do appear to value integrity. Good for you. It is just some of the stuff is opposite of what they say. For example. My husband was told he HAD to carpool, because their was not enought parking. So MKP arranged for 2 other men to ride with him. His place was on at least 10 acres in the middle of approx. 100 acre tract of land (the 10 acres was DONATED by another MKP person). There was huge areas to park. They wanted to make it very hard for men to leave, so they told a LIE. The entire weekend was started with a lie. True integrity cannot be had within lies.
On the yahoo group I read, the man that started that group has stated he is basically shunned by the men he spent 3 years with. When he left the group, these men were no longer his friends. If they were his friend while he was in the group, what changed. I do not think he started this yahoo group until later, and he has never completely identified himself, so that could not be the reason.
My husband really bonded with his group on his training. He never attended Igroup. He has never received even one phone call from any man saying they missed him, why did he not come, nothing.
I have to cut this short because I need to do some work. Will continue later.
Mankind project
Posted by:
ginah
()
Date: May 12, 2006 03:27AM
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Last week we were speaking a little about MKP, and she mentioned it was time for them to decide their "contribution" for the year.
This is what I was talking about earlier, my husband was given a form and asked for us to give a monthly contribution. He said that it was talked about with the group for quite some time and how they did not "make" enough money to pay for their facilities and for the men to "donate" as much money's as they felt they could and as much as they felt they had "gained" from the weekend.
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We only saw that one tax report. What if each separate organization paid these same directors the same amount of money. Can you imagine what they would be making. I am not saying they do, but I do not believe this is all the money these men are making.
Are you aware that these men, the "brothers" who do these weekends also pay? But not the "Elders" that go? The "Elders" get paid. So when you talked about how much they make from new "initiates", add on to that the same amount for the "grunts" as I call them that pay to "train" the "new brothers". I am told by my husband that they have as many "brothers" as "initiates" (and sometimes more) at these weekend "retreats". So, according to my husband, 30 "initiates" X 600 plus 30 "brothers" X 600. What is that, 36000. for one weekend of training? And in my state the IRS forms state they did five of these last year? What, just in my state somewhere around $180,000.00 JUST for the weekends. Not the monthly donation's, not the I groups, not the other trainings they try to talk you into taking....
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At the end of my husband's weekend, they all had a pep talk on how to recruit other men. All of the emails he receives weekly encourage him to bring men into MKP. That is SO typical of LGAT's. The more recruits, the more money.
My husband talked to me about "woman within", a woman's form of "MKP" and how he felt it might be good for me. Then he talked to my nephew about the group and how he felt it might be good for him. As soon as I heard my husband talking to my nephew about this I jumped in and told my nephew that I felt this was a cult and "yelled" at my husband for trying to "recruit" my nephew after his promise to me to not "recruit" people.
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My husband was told he HAD to carpool, because their was not enought parking.
Same with my husband, he had to drive another man down that he had never met before. And these guys are constantly told during the weekend they are welcome to leave at any time?? How, if they feel they have an obligation to another person they drove? Or how would you leave if you rode down with someone? Is MKP going to pay for a Taxi to drive you 350 miles home??
Mankind project
Posted by:
what2do
()
Date: May 12, 2006 03:49AM
The area we live in has a monthly iniation with an average of 35-40 men. Imagine how much money that is. I have read several email where they would make a list of needed items - office supplies, fax machines, chairs, tables, etc. and ask for donations of these items. This goes on non-stop.
Any and all work needed on the facility from tree trimming, painting, wood repairs, literally everything is donated at the least by labor, and possibly by materials. Yet, the money keeps on coming in. I would just like to know where the money goes.
At the graduation, I spoke for a while to the man who recruited my husband. I think he could tell I was not totally comfortable, but I was very polite to him. This man is a former CFO of a very major company. I asked him about where the money went. His response was, "I don't know, I guess I have never really thought about it". He has been in almost 10 years, and with his background he has never wondered about the money raised. I did not just fall off the turnip truck. He did say the organization gave two scholarships per year. He hoped they would be able to do more. 40 men times 12 is 480 times $600 is $288,000.00 for new initiates alone. And they can only give 2 scholarships a year. Give me a break.
Any and all work needed on the facility from tree trimming, painting, wood repairs, literally everything is donated at the least by labor, and possibly by materials. Yet, the money keeps on coming in. I would just like to know where the money goes.
At the graduation, I spoke for a while to the man who recruited my husband. I think he could tell I was not totally comfortable, but I was very polite to him. This man is a former CFO of a very major company. I asked him about where the money went. His response was, "I don't know, I guess I have never really thought about it". He has been in almost 10 years, and with his background he has never wondered about the money raised. I did not just fall off the turnip truck. He did say the organization gave two scholarships per year. He hoped they would be able to do more. 40 men times 12 is 480 times $600 is $288,000.00 for new initiates alone. And they can only give 2 scholarships a year. Give me a break.
Mankind project
Posted by:
cb1000rider
()
Date: May 12, 2006 09:34AM
Ginah, First - a thanks.. I think we're getting somewhere and reaching common ground.. At least I'm learning something.
This sounds like an excuse to me. The agreement didn't detail that "some" things were to be non-disclosed. It detailed that nothing was to be disclosed. No exceptions, no exclusions. It's unreasonable to think otherwise... If it states A, it doesn't mean B.
Do you have a degree in counseling, psychology, or a mental health related field? I *studied* psycholgy in college, but I don't consider myself professional. I'm not trying to insult you, but if you have a degree or make a living in psyc, I think that's different.
I'm missing it then. He didn't promise to not keep any secrets? What are you calling him out on then?
I think you're upset - correct me here - that you think he violated your agreement by talking about his relationship with you. What does this have to do with you being upset that he won't tell you want went on that weekend? He may or may not have talked about you - most of the work that I saw done was *not* about the spouse.. With some exceptions of course... But he's not out of integrity with you just because he won't disclose the weekend procedure, especially if he never promised such non-disclosure.
A promise to keep your issues between you, correct?
And it probably didn't impact your ability to buy the children clothes?
I checked guidestar. Obviously you're just repeating what someone else told you, as if you had [b:2bd4c25cc9]CHECKED[/b:2bd4c25cc9], like you're suggesting, you'd know that guildestar charges $300 to look at the detailed information. All guidestar shows a non-paying user is that they have records on MKP.
I did find tax information elsewhere.
The income was impressive... However, the payments to MKP members were very unimpressive. Tax records aren't everything however.
Some of it is hard to read, but if they've got 2M in income, that's impressive. It doesn't mean that it's going into the pockets of men and all I ask is that you're specific and FACTUAL about what you're saying in regard to where the money is going. People say that people at the top of MKP are getting rich, but no one seems to be able to prove it. MKP says that the payments (to the few that are paid) are not very substantial. The tax records I've seen support the MKP statements.
I agree with you. MKP could raise doubts and fear in spouses and obviously does, judging by your and other spouse reactions. The overall tone in this forum (and others) does nothing to help those fears.
I think they may be selfish with the lives of men in regard to not disclosing the process, but I don't think think they are out of integrity.
Your husband asked you not to disclose your (your relationship with your husband) business to 3rd parties. You're asking your husband to disclose a process over the weekend. Maybe I've got it wrong: Are you mad because you ASSUME that he talked about his relationship with you over the weekend?
Maybe you are right. I guess I haven't considered it too terribly damaging because I think I went through it and survived without any lasting scars. What is true for me is not true for everyone. Obviously some people feel that the deprivation is significant, where as I didn't consider it particuarly noteworthy or overly stressful.
You're more forgiving than me. And you hold men less accountable for their actions that I would. Perhaps the difference is that I don't believe in the overall effect of LGAT as much as you do? I don't think it hit me that hard.
You're posting what "he thought" - which I'm not a fan of, but I guess I can accept.
Again, there was nothing in the disclosure that would have lead a reasonable person to the conclusion that your propose your husband "thought". I don't think it's a valid excuse.
Let me ask you this. I go to buy a car.
I *think* that I'm buying it for $20,000.
The contract says that I'm buying it for $25,000. And does not include any language for any other exceptions of exemptions.
Is it reasonable to assume that I'm getting anything other than what the contract says? Should I be mad when the dealership expects $25,000?
Let me be blunt. He either made his choice or it was a result of the depression. Don't confuse the two. You're posting excuses for a set of actions. "Depression" and "he thought it meant X" - both of them sure look like ways to take the accountability and integrity away from his actions.
I'll agree with you that taking things away from men might be part of a process of breaking them down. It also might have a by-product of freeing them from distraction. As I'm not privvy to the "why" - It's my conjecture.
Q: You state that under the right circumstances that "trained professions" could provide benefits to people. Is it possible that people can become professional and experience without traditional education?
I think you're right on and couldn't agree with you more.
I simply have *great* distaste for those spouses (or men) who visit one site or especially that yahoo forum (where support of MKP has all but been supressed via moderation/removal), gather an opinion based on those "facts" and then that's all that they will accept.
Right on!
YES! I can see the potential for negative impact with some people. I can see that it might be dangerous if the leadership isn't experienced enough to handle the things that go on. I certainly see that some spouses [b:2bd4c25cc9]demand[/b:2bd4c25cc9] to know the details about the weekend... Wasn't there one that was going to "refuse to be intimate" with her husband after the weekend... Sorry, I diagress away from your point... I do agree that it's not risk free!
After experiencing it, I'm suggesting that reading the manual doesn't even give you a basic understanding of what it's like for the people involved. The men have no knowledge of what will be next, it's a different sort of experience.
In regard to it being a cult, I strongly disagree with that characterization personally. LGAT, yes. In regard to your states Regulatory Agency listing them as "watched" - I don't buy much credibility in that.. Remember, this is a country that imprisoned Asian Americans during WWII and prosecuted "suspected" communists in the 60s... Our government does a lot of dumb things.
I don't see how integrity and secrecy are related, unless there was a promise to be forthcoming.
I agree that they are not be transaparent, certainly.
Ask your husband this for me:
"Did you understand from our previous agreement that we agreed to disclose ANYTHING that might have an impact on our relationship? Did you know that when you signed on with MKP?"
Without going into my specific experiences, I can tell you that taking some "things" away from men is a legitimate safety concern for the entire group.
I do agree that there is no reason to take "other" things away and it's likely a part of their "process". IE - certainly partial bullshit.
At my weekend there were men who had gone through years of leading this sort of process. My understanding (now) is that training is involved, altough not the sort that you're taught in a graduate program. I'm not saying that this makes it safe or ok.
I'm attempting to disspell your "two day training" - some men might have two day training, but the guys who were running the show had been through this *a lot* before.
You agree that you would not have signed the contract. You husband could read the contract. What he "thought" is either ignorant or not relevant, sorry... I don't see why you offer up excuses for him here.
MKP isn't out of integrity with that contract, unless it stipulates one thing and then asks men to promise another. It stipulates complete confidentiality. MKP expects it.
Did you edit the part where I provided the fact that you're asked to sign that contract BEFORE the LGAT?
I totally agree that MKP doesn't detail what the weekend is like!
I either trust the man who brought me to MKP, trust MKP, or I do NOT sign the contract. What I "thought" & my level of depression are not excuses.
Your husband signed something that indicates total confidentiality without exception. It's not rational to say that he thought he was signing something else. Hey, I thought the speed limit was 60, but I still get a ticket.. He should have some accountability and I think you should stop making excuses..
I don't think your husband is out of integrity for feeling concern toward you. I think that *you* should be more understanding of what he went though.. maybe... and not press him to disclose what he agreed not to disclose, perhaps? (Yes, regardless of what he *thought* he signed)
You have a valid eithical point (at least from my perspective). I don't know if they should continue if they do good for some, but damage others. Even if I assume that they do a great deal of good (based on what I've been told first hand) and do some level of harm to others (based on what I've read here) - I'm not willing to make that moral call. I just don't know.
I don't think that clergy and therapist referrals make it 100% OK either.
I'd suggest that it's not anti-Christian (not that you claimed it was) and has some individual level support in various churches.
Therapists.. well, they're like programmers - there are good ones and bad ones!
I'm torn on the "research" issue. MKP has the most impact (based on my experience) if you don't know what the process is. If there was a way to expose more of what goes on without detailing the process, I'd be for that disclosure. Otherwise, you're taking away the potential to do *good* at the same time you're exposing the "secrets".
Your post shows that you've got an open mind, which is unusual on these types of forums from my experience. Most people have made up their mind. You might try posting on the Yahoo group, unless X finds that you find something postive in MKP. If you the criticism of MKP is bad here, you'll really be shocked there!
You view him as a man of integrity, so why not ask him - or tell him that you expect him to keep your confidences still and see what the reaction is.
I suppose that MKP could break *some* people, but I think most of those people allow themselves to be broken. I'd *guess* that very few (if any) are broken and "brainwashed" in the common sense of the terms... It's just not that bad.
Yes, I certainly do.
I don't know what to tell you. You either trust that your husband can make good choices in regard to those he does disclose to - or you trust him not to say anything... Again, he's got free will. He can make the choice. If he's a man of integrity, he will do what he tells you he's going to do.
There are submissive men that may remember what their spouse told them to do.. Perhaps those men are less likely to be "vunerable".
I *think* I have free will. I choose not to continue with MKP. No one is leaning on me to make a decision one way or the other. I don't feel very vunerable. I suppose the reality could be different.
Sorry. This is bullshit. He's responsible for signing it. If he didn't read or didn't understand, he's responsible for that also. He gets no break from me, although I understand the position that he's in now.
I completely disagree. Then again, I may be a brain dead zombie.
Read the yahoo group. You'll find that it's a mortal sin, as proposed by the moderator of that group.
My point is that there are *extreme* opinons on MKP and I encourage you to find a balance as best you can, even though you can't go through it yourself.
Homosexuality is a big issue for a LOT of men in many ways. Many are openly afraid of the issue. Again, my point is that there are anti-MKP forums that play on the fears of men and fears of society so that MKP looks bad, even though the basis for those statements are not exactly grounded in fact.
I agree!
But let's solve the problem: How do we get around the claim that something is lost from the "process" without keeping the procedure secret? I believe that something is lost if they fully disclose.
I think that the ceremonies may have a basis in ancient cultures.
If you simulate a rain dance, one might claim that you're engaging in a pagan ritual.. As such, you risk your soul.
Personally, I find that *silly* - there is nothing inherently wrong about doing such a dance. I understand how some conservative Christians might be offended by this, especially if they are spurred by the postings of other men who fear the process.
My only way to answer your question is with a questions:
How can MKP (or any other group) be INCLUSIONARY - that is, not be specific to one specific brand of religion or without offending another.
If MKP used Christian ritual, they might potentially offend Muslims or Hindus.. The way it is today, they're going to offend everyone if you take parts of the process LITERALLY. Course, if you do that, you're likely to be offended by homosexuals! It ain't a place for the ultra-conservative and close minded.
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ginah
As I stated, we "thought" he was signing an agreement to not disclose any information he might gain about other people, and we both agreed that was a good thing.
This sounds like an excuse to me. The agreement didn't detail that "some" things were to be non-disclosed. It detailed that nothing was to be disclosed. No exceptions, no exclusions. It's unreasonable to think otherwise... If it states A, it doesn't mean B.
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ginah
I do have a background in mental health.. I have studied pshychology.... I do agree that in "the correct and trained" setting that LGAT techniques can be beneficial "when used with trained professionals" not with men who have taken a one or two day workshop in it......
Do you have a degree in counseling, psychology, or a mental health related field? I *studied* psycholgy in college, but I don't consider myself professional. I'm not trying to insult you, but if you have a degree or make a living in psyc, I think that's different.
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ginah
Actually, I have felt for a long time that I had a fairly good relationship with my husband, I have felt that HE was my best friend.........
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ginah
The promise was not necessarily *any* secrets. I know people keep things to themselves and I see nothing wrong with that in general. HE came to me upset that I had said something to a girlfriend, we talked, and he requested that "our issues be kept between us" I have kept that promise. And as I stated before, that the agreement we "thought" he was signing was to keep what other men told them about themselves to himself. I guess I feel that we were not given "valid" information "upfront"... And you are correct, that *pisses me off*
I'm missing it then. He didn't promise to not keep any secrets? What are you calling him out on then?
I think you're upset - correct me here - that you think he violated your agreement by talking about his relationship with you. What does this have to do with you being upset that he won't tell you want went on that weekend? He may or may not have talked about you - most of the work that I saw done was *not* about the spouse.. With some exceptions of course... But he's not out of integrity with you just because he won't disclose the weekend procedure, especially if he never promised such non-disclosure.
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ginah
No, I was not speaking of just our marriage vows, but a promise we made to each other about five years ago.....
A promise to keep your issues between you, correct?
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ginah
We "thought" this was something that would help him with his grief over his dad's death and following depression. We felt that something positive for him was worth the money......
And it probably didn't impact your ability to buy the children clothes?
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ginah
www.guidestar.org have fun, these are public records, I was able to sign in and find what I was looking for, but it is hard as they use different names for different areas. Luckily, in some places, they use aka mankind project.
I checked guidestar. Obviously you're just repeating what someone else told you, as if you had [b:2bd4c25cc9]CHECKED[/b:2bd4c25cc9], like you're suggesting, you'd know that guildestar charges $300 to look at the detailed information. All guidestar shows a non-paying user is that they have records on MKP.
I did find tax information elsewhere.
The income was impressive... However, the payments to MKP members were very unimpressive. Tax records aren't everything however.
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ginah
As I said before, some of this is confusing to me and I am still having a hard time following what I am finding......on their forms they are not stating what they are making as "income" but as "compensation"...
Some of it is hard to read, but if they've got 2M in income, that's impressive. It doesn't mean that it's going into the pockets of men and all I ask is that you're specific and FACTUAL about what you're saying in regard to where the money is going. People say that people at the top of MKP are getting rich, but no one seems to be able to prove it. MKP says that the payments (to the few that are paid) are not very substantial. The tax records I've seen support the MKP statements.
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ginah
I agree with that, men and women process information differently. That does not mean that a group that claims to be beneficial to men and their families cannot have "some" form of information that they give to the spouse, I feel that the way they are handling this is out of "integrity".
I agree with you. MKP could raise doubts and fear in spouses and obviously does, judging by your and other spouse reactions. The overall tone in this forum (and others) does nothing to help those fears.
I think they may be selfish with the lives of men in regard to not disclosing the process, but I don't think think they are out of integrity.
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ginah
Sorry, I have to disagree, some marriages are that way, some marriages the couple pretty much live separate lives and don't really care much about what their spouse has going on in their lives. I believe that what my husband asked of me many years ago preceeds this MKP "oath". I also feel that the way he questions me about what I do at times, is the same way I questioned him, I always answer as truthfully as possible and desire the same from him.
Your husband asked you not to disclose your (your relationship with your husband) business to 3rd parties. You're asking your husband to disclose a process over the weekend. Maybe I've got it wrong: Are you mad because you ASSUME that he talked about his relationship with you over the weekend?
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ginah
RE: LGAT
Maybe you should do some more research into LGAT and what it can do to a person's psyche
Maybe you are right. I guess I haven't considered it too terribly damaging because I think I went through it and survived without any lasting scars. What is true for me is not true for everyone. Obviously some people feel that the deprivation is significant, where as I didn't consider it particuarly noteworthy or overly stressful.
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ginah
RE: Cheating OK after a weekend of LGAT
I guess I don't get that comment, as far as I am concerned I trust him in this area. Though, if I "assume" you meant that under LGAT techniques he "did" cheat, then most likely I would forgive him as I know that these techniques can "screw" with people's minds.
You're more forgiving than me. And you hold men less accountable for their actions that I would. Perhaps the difference is that I don't believe in the overall effect of LGAT as much as you do? I don't think it hit me that hard.
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ginah
hhmm, not sure what to say here again, other than to state "again", that we thought he was agreeing to not disclose anything other men might tell him. Which I thought was reasonable.
You're posting what "he thought" - which I'm not a fan of, but I guess I can accept.
Again, there was nothing in the disclosure that would have lead a reasonable person to the conclusion that your propose your husband "thought". I don't think it's a valid excuse.
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ginah
No, I do not feel he was out of "integrity", because, again, we THOUGHT he was agreeing to keep what he might find out about other men to himself, which, again, I was in agreement with!!!!!!!!!!
Let me ask you this. I go to buy a car.
I *think* that I'm buying it for $20,000.
The contract says that I'm buying it for $25,000. And does not include any language for any other exceptions of exemptions.
Is it reasonable to assume that I'm getting anything other than what the contract says? Should I be mad when the dealership expects $25,000?
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ginah
Yes, he made this choice, though, I feel as depressed as he was, he definitely would not have made the same choice before the depression set in...... Dealing with the grief of a loved one dying, and then the hope of "a light at the end of the tunnel", well, free choice........
Let me be blunt. He either made his choice or it was a result of the depression. Don't confuse the two. You're posting excuses for a set of actions. "Depression" and "he thought it meant X" - both of them sure look like ways to take the accountability and integrity away from his actions.
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ginah
RE: Opion in regard to taking things away from men
You are correct on this one, it is my opinion, but, an opinion of research and knowledge as to why something like this might be done. I also agree that under the "right" circumstances with "trained professionals" this could be beneficial for a person...
I'll agree with you that taking things away from men might be part of a process of breaking them down. It also might have a by-product of freeing them from distraction. As I'm not privvy to the "why" - It's my conjecture.
Q: You state that under the right circumstances that "trained professions" could provide benefits to people. Is it possible that people can become professional and experience without traditional education?
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ginah
Yes, I am talking to those who "hate" it, and to those who "love" it. How else do you come up with an opinion that has any "truth"?
I think you're right on and couldn't agree with you more.
I simply have *great* distaste for those spouses (or men) who visit one site or especially that yahoo forum (where support of MKP has all but been supressed via moderation/removal), gather an opinion based on those "facts" and then that's all that they will accept.
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ginah
I figure somewhere in the middle of everything I will find "some" truth.
Right on!
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ginah
Can you agree that for some that this group is detrimental to (most importantly) themselves, and secondly their relationships????
YES! I can see the potential for negative impact with some people. I can see that it might be dangerous if the leadership isn't experienced enough to handle the things that go on. I certainly see that some spouses [b:2bd4c25cc9]demand[/b:2bd4c25cc9] to know the details about the weekend... Wasn't there one that was going to "refuse to be intimate" with her husband after the weekend... Sorry, I diagress away from your point... I do agree that it's not risk free!
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ginah
No, I did not attend the weekend, but I read the manual and understand the procedures that they followed.... Also, their is a reason that MKP has a forum in regards to this group being a "cult, lgat". Go to International Cultic Studies Association www.culticstudies.org their site is kind of hard to follow, but you will eventually find Mankind Project listed under "cult" under "lgat". Also, in my state, The Department of Regulatory Agency's warned me away from this group..........
After experiencing it, I'm suggesting that reading the manual doesn't even give you a basic understanding of what it's like for the people involved. The men have no knowledge of what will be next, it's a different sort of experience.
In regard to it being a cult, I strongly disagree with that characterization personally. LGAT, yes. In regard to your states Regulatory Agency listing them as "watched" - I don't buy much credibility in that.. Remember, this is a country that imprisoned Asian Americans during WWII and prosecuted "suspected" communists in the 60s... Our government does a lot of dumb things.
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ginah
I am not sure about this, I will have to think on it, I know I do not agree that they are keeping their "integrity" by keeping information "hidden", "secret", "whatever".
I don't see how integrity and secrecy are related, unless there was a promise to be forthcoming.
I agree that they are not be transaparent, certainly.
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ginah
RE: Promise your husband made
I believe I answered this above but will add further clarification to my previous statement, what goes on in our relationship, stays in our relationship, whatever we do/say that will have impact on our relationship, and on our relationship with others, we will disclose to each other. We are/will work towards, being our best friends.
Ask your husband this for me:
"Did you understand from our previous agreement that we agreed to disclose ANYTHING that might have an impact on our relationship? Did you know that when you signed on with MKP?"
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ginah
Sorry for being "whiney", my opinion on this was, we are being told these things are taken away for "safety", when IN MY OPINION, that is a bullshit answer.
Without going into my specific experiences, I can tell you that taking some "things" away from men is a legitimate safety concern for the entire group.
I do agree that there is no reason to take "other" things away and it's likely a part of their "process". IE - certainly partial bullshit.
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ginah
RE:Deprivation
Again, WITH THE RIGHT TRAINED PROFESSIONALS, YES, THIS COULD CREATE AN ENVIRONMENT OF INTROSPECTION, BUT NOT WITH A GROUP OF MEN WHO [b:2bd4c25cc9]MIGHT[/b:2bd4c25cc9] HAVE GONE TO A TWO DAY TRAINING IN THE PROCESS.
At my weekend there were men who had gone through years of leading this sort of process. My understanding (now) is that training is involved, altough not the sort that you're taught in a graduate program. I'm not saying that this makes it safe or ok.
I'm attempting to disspell your "two day training" - some men might have two day training, but the guys who were running the show had been through this *a lot* before.
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ginah
RE: contract
I would [u:2bd4c25cc9][i:2bd4c25cc9][b:2bd4c25cc9]not [/b:2bd4c25cc9][/i:2bd4c25cc9][/u:2bd4c25cc9]sign the contract, and again I believe I have stated what we "THOUGHT" my husband was signing.... This is where this group "again" does not follow through on their "integrity".
You agree that you would not have signed the contract. You husband could read the contract. What he "thought" is either ignorant or not relevant, sorry... I don't see why you offer up excuses for him here.
MKP isn't out of integrity with that contract, unless it stipulates one thing and then asks men to promise another. It stipulates complete confidentiality. MKP expects it.
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ginah
I understand LGAT, I understand that after you would very willingly choose to sign anything "under your own free will".
Did you edit the part where I provided the fact that you're asked to sign that contract BEFORE the LGAT?
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ginah
You say the same thing, we were not given full disclosure of what my husband was signing..........
I totally agree that MKP doesn't detail what the weekend is like!
I either trust the man who brought me to MKP, trust MKP, or I do NOT sign the contract. What I "thought" & my level of depression are not excuses.
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ginah
Again, I do not think either one of us realized "what he was allowed" to discuss and we both thought it had to do with what other men might tell him about themselves. NO, he [u:2bd4c25cc9]did not [/u:2bd4c25cc9]understand that he would not be telling me about the weekend. I do not see my husband as being "out of integrity" when he shows concern and understanding of my feelings and feels more of a responsibility of honesty "not quite the word I am looking for but close enough" towards me than to MKP......
Your husband signed something that indicates total confidentiality without exception. It's not rational to say that he thought he was signing something else. Hey, I thought the speed limit was 60, but I still get a ticket.. He should have some accountability and I think you should stop making excuses..
I don't think your husband is out of integrity for feeling concern toward you. I think that *you* should be more understanding of what he went though.. maybe... and not press him to disclose what he agreed not to disclose, perhaps? (Yes, regardless of what he *thought* he signed)
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ginah
I am not trained in Jungian Psychology, but have training at university in psychology, and have done much reading in the last few weeks.
1. Yes, I can see where MKP could possibly be helpful to some men, my worry is THEY DON'T HAVE CORRECT TRAINING. THEY COULD CAUSE MORE HARM THAN GOOD.... So, let's say they help many people, but harm many others, should they continue? Or try to change how they do things a bit?
You have a valid eithical point (at least from my perspective). I don't know if they should continue if they do good for some, but damage others. Even if I assume that they do a great deal of good (based on what I've been told first hand) and do some level of harm to others (based on what I've read here) - I'm not willing to make that moral call. I just don't know.
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ginah
RE: Clergy and therapist referrals
2. I do not know how to answer that question, maybe they have not enough information. Maybe they think that the person they are sending would be benefited by this group. H*ll, maybe they are brainwashed, I don't know...... Why is it that I have known members of the clergy to preach what not to do, and then I find them doing it??? This just shows, research and get to know, before you leap...
I don't think that clergy and therapist referrals make it 100% OK either.
I'd suggest that it's not anti-Christian (not that you claimed it was) and has some individual level support in various churches.
Therapists.. well, they're like programmers - there are good ones and bad ones!
I'm torn on the "research" issue. MKP has the most impact (based on my experience) if you don't know what the process is. If there was a way to expose more of what goes on without detailing the process, I'd be for that disclosure. Otherwise, you're taking away the potential to do *good* at the same time you're exposing the "secrets".
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ginah
3. Of course, I never said it could not be beneficial. If you read one of my previous post you will see where I state many positives that I have seen in my husband. Do you agree that with the techniques this goup uses, they may cause more harm than good for many men???
Your post shows that you've got an open mind, which is unusual on these types of forums from my experience. Most people have made up their mind. You might try posting on the Yahoo group, unless X finds that you find something postive in MKP. If you the criticism of MKP is bad here, you'll really be shocked there!
Ginah, I completely understand why you might feel hurt.Quote
ginah
No, I do not "expect" him to disclose, actually I trust him with that, it is the fact that now, I have to continually think about what I say to him, when for years I have not.... And to be completely honest, that hurts me... It is the fact, that I know if a person is in a state of distress, they "might" accidently say something they should not without meaning to....
You view him as a man of integrity, so why not ask him - or tell him that you expect him to keep your confidences still and see what the reaction is.
I suppose that MKP could break *some* people, but I think most of those people allow themselves to be broken. I'd *guess* that very few (if any) are broken and "brainwashed" in the common sense of the terms... It's just not that bad.
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ginah
This is something we have discussed, again, it is an issue of, now I have to watch what I say to my love...... and think, well, is this something I need to ask him not to disclose? Would it bother me? If so, why? Is it really an issue? etc. etc. etc. Do you see where that can be painful to someone who her best friend, is now someone she has to watch what she talks about with?
Yes, I certainly do.
I don't know what to tell you. You either trust that your husband can make good choices in regard to those he does disclose to - or you trust him not to say anything... Again, he's got free will. He can make the choice. If he's a man of integrity, he will do what he tells you he's going to do.
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ginah
Yes, usually free will of men who are vulnerable. And the "upfront" part I have answered enough times.
There are submissive men that may remember what their spouse told them to do.. Perhaps those men are less likely to be "vunerable".
I *think* I have free will. I choose not to continue with MKP. No one is leaning on me to make a decision one way or the other. I don't feel very vunerable. I suppose the reality could be different.
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ginah
Sure, make him someone "out of integrity" because we misunderstood what he signed and the fact that he was depressed.
Sorry. This is bullshit. He's responsible for signing it. If he didn't read or didn't understand, he's responsible for that also. He gets no break from me, although I understand the position that he's in now.
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ginah
[b:2bd4c25cc9]Do you believe that MKP is a cult?[/b:2bd4c25cc9]
Yes
I completely disagree. Then again, I may be a brain dead zombie.
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ginah
I do not believe the weekend and what they do to be a "mortal sin", I believe the secrecy, the techniques they use with untrained professionals, is the "sin".... What is right for me may be wrong for you, what is right for you may be wrong for me, neither way is "wrong" in and of itself, it is how it effects the person.
Read the yahoo group. You'll find that it's a mortal sin, as proposed by the moderator of that group.
My point is that there are *extreme* opinons on MKP and I encourage you to find a balance as best you can, even though you can't go through it yourself.
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ginah
MKP supports homosexuality
That is not an issue for me. As I stated, my way may not be yours, and your way may not be mine. Neither way is wrong. Everyone has their own path they "need" to follow in this world.....
Homosexuality is a big issue for a LOT of men in many ways. Many are openly afraid of the issue. Again, my point is that there are anti-MKP forums that play on the fears of men and fears of society so that MKP looks bad, even though the basis for those statements are not exactly grounded in fact.
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ginah
MKP would cause themselves less problems if they were upfront about what they do, and how they do it.
I agree!
But let's solve the problem: How do we get around the claim that something is lost from the "process" without keeping the procedure secret? I believe that something is lost if they fully disclose.
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ginah
If a Christian man (or any religion) is not aware of the fact that this group uses "pagan" ceramonies, how is that holding to "integrity" and how is that beneficial to his mental state? Again, here is where I feel "a lie of admission" is in play.
I think that the ceremonies may have a basis in ancient cultures.
If you simulate a rain dance, one might claim that you're engaging in a pagan ritual.. As such, you risk your soul.
Personally, I find that *silly* - there is nothing inherently wrong about doing such a dance. I understand how some conservative Christians might be offended by this, especially if they are spurred by the postings of other men who fear the process.
My only way to answer your question is with a questions:
How can MKP (or any other group) be INCLUSIONARY - that is, not be specific to one specific brand of religion or without offending another.
If MKP used Christian ritual, they might potentially offend Muslims or Hindus.. The way it is today, they're going to offend everyone if you take parts of the process LITERALLY. Course, if you do that, you're likely to be offended by homosexuals! It ain't a place for the ultra-conservative and close minded.
Mankind project
Posted by:
what2do
()
Date: May 12, 2006 12:07PM
CB, you speak so much about integrity. How about the lie MKP tells men about why they need to carpool. Where is the integrity in that. You may think that is a small lie, no big deal. You speak so highly about integrity, and Gina's husband integrity. Explain why they can go out of integrity for their own selfish reasons. Is one lie to the men any more or less than a husband signing an agreement to not speak about it, then telling his wife. Why is he out of integrity, when MKP is not if they tell a lie.
Quite frankly, I cannot see the validity of most of your reasoning. To me the bottom line is no man/woman, or organization should ask or require a married person to keep secrets, or take an oath of secrecy from their spouse. There is nothing, IMO, more powerful than the relationship between two married people. I personally feel MKP lose s integrity by even suggesting, much less requiring, a man to do this.
Most people go to mkp at the recruiting of someone else. My husband was coerced by his 12 step sponsor into going. When it came up he was to carpool because there was insufficient parking, he asked his sponsor about this. This was a man he admired, respected, and trusted. This man who has been to the weekend, knew this was an untrue statement, yet he just said parking is limited. This man has been in MKP for many years. He also lied. He never said there was not enough parking, just limited. At best, it was a lie of omission.
As you stated, you trusted whoever recruited, so it was not a problem signing a paper, in the dark, so to speak. My husband also signed, in the dark, based on the recommendation of a man he trusted. That trusted man lied. IMO, the lie that was given to him, completely wipes out any need he may have had about honoring his secrecy. If MKP wants integrity, they need to give it also.
If my husband had known of the nudity, crazy Indian dancing, holding a dildo, and being a part of cock talk, I am sure he would not have gone. IMO, having people sign a paper of secrecy, then subjecting them to behaviors, or witnessing behaviors that are completely out of the norm of our society is a complete lack of integrity.
My husband told me very little. I spent the entire weekend he was gone investigating. I knew a lot by Sunday evening. I asked him did this happen, did that happen. He just agreed it did.
The only thing he told me I had no idea about was the sexual implications he experienced Sunday in the sweat lodge. At the end, the leader said "You may now reach over and grab your Brother's dick. If any man does not want that he may remove the hand". Of course, all the men were nude. My husband said he just froze. He could not believe what he had just heard. He never saw anyone do it, but the room being very dark, it could have occurred. He just knows no one around him did that.
And you really believe after an experience like that, he broke integrity by telling me of this incident. I personally consider this a form of sexual impropriety. These were men he had spent an entire weekend learning to trust, and this behavior was encouraged. IMO, their is no integrity in MKP.
I know, you will say this never happened on my weekend. So what. It happened on his.
If you are so impressed by the integrity and caliber of men at MKP, I am curious, why have you quit going. I would think an organization who does so much good, helps so many men, would be an organization you would be proud to be a part of.
I do not think they are a cult in the true sense of the word. They do exhibit many cultish behaviors. They do practice hypnotism, mind manipulation, or whatever they call it. They do life regression on these men. This can be a very dangerous thing to do for some people. I always thought this was pretty much left to psychiatrists. I do not know of any therapist who practices this, because of the dangerous effects it could have on some people. Go to google, and type in coercive persuasion. Read some of the literature from very knowledgeable people. You will see this was done on you. You will see how many people have used this in the past. Particularly the North Koreans on our POW's during the Korean War.
Yes, they had longer, and took it to more extremes. However, the practice is the same.
Men are told how powerful this weekend will be. How much good it will do them. They are then subjected to a weekend of coercive persuasion. Of course, they will leave feeling this weekend was powerful, and helped them tremendously. How could most men feel any other way. The power of suggestion, in the right atmosphere, is very persuasive.
MKP is just another LGAT. In time, like most others programs, they will wither away, and something else will take their place. And I promise you, whatever takes their place will cost a lot of money. Personally, I suggest if anyone feels they need such a weekend, go buy a good self help book about whatever one may think they have issues with, and read it, then practice it. A lot cheaper and less stressful.
Quite frankly, I cannot see the validity of most of your reasoning. To me the bottom line is no man/woman, or organization should ask or require a married person to keep secrets, or take an oath of secrecy from their spouse. There is nothing, IMO, more powerful than the relationship between two married people. I personally feel MKP lose s integrity by even suggesting, much less requiring, a man to do this.
Most people go to mkp at the recruiting of someone else. My husband was coerced by his 12 step sponsor into going. When it came up he was to carpool because there was insufficient parking, he asked his sponsor about this. This was a man he admired, respected, and trusted. This man who has been to the weekend, knew this was an untrue statement, yet he just said parking is limited. This man has been in MKP for many years. He also lied. He never said there was not enough parking, just limited. At best, it was a lie of omission.
As you stated, you trusted whoever recruited, so it was not a problem signing a paper, in the dark, so to speak. My husband also signed, in the dark, based on the recommendation of a man he trusted. That trusted man lied. IMO, the lie that was given to him, completely wipes out any need he may have had about honoring his secrecy. If MKP wants integrity, they need to give it also.
If my husband had known of the nudity, crazy Indian dancing, holding a dildo, and being a part of cock talk, I am sure he would not have gone. IMO, having people sign a paper of secrecy, then subjecting them to behaviors, or witnessing behaviors that are completely out of the norm of our society is a complete lack of integrity.
My husband told me very little. I spent the entire weekend he was gone investigating. I knew a lot by Sunday evening. I asked him did this happen, did that happen. He just agreed it did.
The only thing he told me I had no idea about was the sexual implications he experienced Sunday in the sweat lodge. At the end, the leader said "You may now reach over and grab your Brother's dick. If any man does not want that he may remove the hand". Of course, all the men were nude. My husband said he just froze. He could not believe what he had just heard. He never saw anyone do it, but the room being very dark, it could have occurred. He just knows no one around him did that.
And you really believe after an experience like that, he broke integrity by telling me of this incident. I personally consider this a form of sexual impropriety. These were men he had spent an entire weekend learning to trust, and this behavior was encouraged. IMO, their is no integrity in MKP.
I know, you will say this never happened on my weekend. So what. It happened on his.
If you are so impressed by the integrity and caliber of men at MKP, I am curious, why have you quit going. I would think an organization who does so much good, helps so many men, would be an organization you would be proud to be a part of.
I do not think they are a cult in the true sense of the word. They do exhibit many cultish behaviors. They do practice hypnotism, mind manipulation, or whatever they call it. They do life regression on these men. This can be a very dangerous thing to do for some people. I always thought this was pretty much left to psychiatrists. I do not know of any therapist who practices this, because of the dangerous effects it could have on some people. Go to google, and type in coercive persuasion. Read some of the literature from very knowledgeable people. You will see this was done on you. You will see how many people have used this in the past. Particularly the North Koreans on our POW's during the Korean War.
Yes, they had longer, and took it to more extremes. However, the practice is the same.
Men are told how powerful this weekend will be. How much good it will do them. They are then subjected to a weekend of coercive persuasion. Of course, they will leave feeling this weekend was powerful, and helped them tremendously. How could most men feel any other way. The power of suggestion, in the right atmosphere, is very persuasive.
MKP is just another LGAT. In time, like most others programs, they will wither away, and something else will take their place. And I promise you, whatever takes their place will cost a lot of money. Personally, I suggest if anyone feels they need such a weekend, go buy a good self help book about whatever one may think they have issues with, and read it, then practice it. A lot cheaper and less stressful.
Mankind project
Posted by:
what2do
()
Date: May 12, 2006 01:17PM
CB, I thought about something else. I have a copy of some suggested Igroup activities. This was copies directly off the website of a group in a large city. I will list some of the suggested activities.
Writing a story of things you wish your father had said to you. Then letting some man hold you and read this story to you.
Giving each other body massages (it did not state nudity, I am assuming it would because it would be hard to massage thru clothing)
Shaving each other with razors
Washing each others feet
Undressing and putting on another man's clothes
I consider this to be very intimate behavior. And this should not be discussed with spouse because it breaks integrity.
I do not know about you, but I do not expect my husband to be intimate with anyone except me. Intimacy does not have to be sexual, but is damn suggestive. I can assure you, the wives of these men would be shocked to learn their husbands were doing this.
Here is an anaogy that might could compare. This is FICTION.
I work with a woman who appears to have a wonderful marriage. So happy and content. I ask her how she does this. What is her secret. She shares with me her and her husband went to a wonderful retreat and have learned the joy of a long lasting marriage. She says she will get me the info. The literature sounds great. We are told there will be some work that might make us uncomfortable, but the rewards are worth it. We agree to go.
There is paperwork to be filled out, and a confidentiality agreement that we can never reveal what happens.
We go thru some intimidating stuff. Not much food, not much sleep, we do not see each other very often. Lots of drum beating. Very different experiences. A lot of looking at ourselves and how we got to where we are in life. Come Saturday night. It is late, we are tired. We are told to undress. The bottom line is this is a "swingers" group.
Keep in mind, they do nothing illegal. Many people practice this lifestyle, and believe it makes their marriage better. They have thrown off the shackles of their repressed sexuality. Believe they have a better marriage.
Now me and my husband are in shock, and leave. Are we expected to keep integrity and never speak of this to anyone? We did sign a paper up front stating we would. This group is not doing anything illegal. These are all consenting adults. If someone else we know is considering going on this weekend, do we keep integrity because of a paper we signed and not reveal what the weekend is really about?
Do you not understand that us wives on this site feel betrayed by the men who encouraged our husbands to go into thing, completely blind. IMO, the committment of marriage supercedes any paper signed at MKP, or any such organization, even a church. When secrets creep into a marriage, they usually continue to grow. When nudity and intimacy (not sex) with another person is allowed, and the wife is kept in the dark, a division is put between spouses. That is not what a marriage is about. Show me a marriage where these kind of secrets are kept, and I will show you a failing marriage. It may not culminate in divorce, but the marriage is wounded.
Writing a story of things you wish your father had said to you. Then letting some man hold you and read this story to you.
Giving each other body massages (it did not state nudity, I am assuming it would because it would be hard to massage thru clothing)
Shaving each other with razors
Washing each others feet
Undressing and putting on another man's clothes
I consider this to be very intimate behavior. And this should not be discussed with spouse because it breaks integrity.
I do not know about you, but I do not expect my husband to be intimate with anyone except me. Intimacy does not have to be sexual, but is damn suggestive. I can assure you, the wives of these men would be shocked to learn their husbands were doing this.
Here is an anaogy that might could compare. This is FICTION.
I work with a woman who appears to have a wonderful marriage. So happy and content. I ask her how she does this. What is her secret. She shares with me her and her husband went to a wonderful retreat and have learned the joy of a long lasting marriage. She says she will get me the info. The literature sounds great. We are told there will be some work that might make us uncomfortable, but the rewards are worth it. We agree to go.
There is paperwork to be filled out, and a confidentiality agreement that we can never reveal what happens.
We go thru some intimidating stuff. Not much food, not much sleep, we do not see each other very often. Lots of drum beating. Very different experiences. A lot of looking at ourselves and how we got to where we are in life. Come Saturday night. It is late, we are tired. We are told to undress. The bottom line is this is a "swingers" group.
Keep in mind, they do nothing illegal. Many people practice this lifestyle, and believe it makes their marriage better. They have thrown off the shackles of their repressed sexuality. Believe they have a better marriage.
Now me and my husband are in shock, and leave. Are we expected to keep integrity and never speak of this to anyone? We did sign a paper up front stating we would. This group is not doing anything illegal. These are all consenting adults. If someone else we know is considering going on this weekend, do we keep integrity because of a paper we signed and not reveal what the weekend is really about?
Do you not understand that us wives on this site feel betrayed by the men who encouraged our husbands to go into thing, completely blind. IMO, the committment of marriage supercedes any paper signed at MKP, or any such organization, even a church. When secrets creep into a marriage, they usually continue to grow. When nudity and intimacy (not sex) with another person is allowed, and the wife is kept in the dark, a division is put between spouses. That is not what a marriage is about. Show me a marriage where these kind of secrets are kept, and I will show you a failing marriage. It may not culminate in divorce, but the marriage is wounded.
Mankind project
Posted by:
cb1000rider
()
Date: May 12, 2006 11:52PM
Quote
what2do
CB, you speak so much about integrity. How about the lie MKP tells men about why they need to carpool. Where is the integrity in that. You may think that is a small lie, no big deal.
MKP's definition of integrity is that you do what you say you are going to do. The more widely held definition of integrity is adherence to an ethical code of some type. I agree with you that MKP does not disclose the truth of why men "need" to carpool. It's a form of manipulation, at least to me.
A lie is a lie, period. I am not attempting to downplay what it is from my perspective.
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what2do
You speak so highly about integrity, and Gina's husband integrity. Explain why they can go out of integrity for their own selfish reasons. Is one lie to the men any more or less than a husband signing an agreement to not speak about it, then telling his wife. Why is he out of integrity, when MKP is not if they tell a lie.
I think that you are speaking about the lie you've listed above.
I can't explain away that issue. If you expect me to, you're talking to the wrong person.
To me, a wrong done by MKP does not authorize me - or anyone else - to violate my own integrity or violate my own personal agreements. It doesn't matter if that agreement is with my wife or with a 3rd party. If I agreed to it, I should do what I said I was going to do.
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what2do
Quite frankly, I cannot see the validity of most of your reasoning. To me the bottom line is no man/woman, or organization should ask or require a married person to keep secrets, or take an oath of secrecy from their spouse.
Is the reason you can't see the validity in my points because you feel that one lie excuses another? If that was true, we'd all blame all of our personal choices and personal behavior on someone else. There are quite a few people in society that do this currently.
My point is quite simple: If you don't like what a man, woman, or organization is requiring you to do, you don't do it. You don't sign that you will do it. Signing up front and then claiming in hindsight that you didn't thought the agreement was "different" is completely invalid. Such an excuse wouldn't be valid in a civil contract and it's certainly not valid if we claim to have integrity.
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what2do
There is nothing, IMO, more powerful than the relationship between two married people. I personally feel MKP lose s integrity by even suggesting, much less requiring, a man to do this.
I think that the marriage relationship is both powerful and sacred also, if it's a good relationship.
Where is the balance? I don't know. Is it ethical to cause harm to some to help others? I don't know where to draw that ethical line either, I think for every circumstance it could be different.
Again, I don't disagree that MKP could potentially be putting a barrier in that relationship by asking that men keep the process secret. I simply want you - and the other people that read this to identify that the weekend *could* possibly help the relationship also via helping one of the partners. The could be viewed as selfish from the point of view of a spouse. It's about the MAN. Not the partner. Not the relationship.
The man can discuss his feelings. He can discuss what he learned about himself. He can discuss the relationship. He cannot disclose the process... That's it.
If you fear a weekend simply because you don't know what went on - or if you choose to punish your partner through removing intimacy (as suggested on this forum) because he chooses not to disclose something that he agreed not to disclose, then you are choosing to damage the relationship on top of MKP. That's your choice, but I'd ask, what do you gain by doing so?
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what2do
Most people go to mkp at the recruiting of someone else. My husband was coerced by his 12 step sponsor into going. When it came up he was to carpool because there was insufficient parking, he asked his sponsor about this. This was a man he admired, respected, and trusted. This man who has been to the weekend, knew this was an untrue statement, yet he just said parking is limited. This man has been in MKP for many years. He also lied. He never said there was not enough parking, just limited. At best, it was a lie of omission.
I think that MKP has to recruit. They're too vague about the process for anyone to sign up other than at the recommendation of another person.
MKP does not "advertise" in the traditional sense.
How as your husband "coerced"? Coercion implies threats or intimidation. Both are wrong and way out of line for any sort of sponsor relationship.
Known anywhere that parking is unlimited? Perhaps that's the play on words. You're right, it's omission in the best case. It could be called misinformation. At worst, it's a lie. I don't justify it and I don't call it by any other name.
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what2do
As you stated, you trusted whoever recruited, so it was not a problem signing a paper, in the dark, so to speak.
It was a difficult choice for me. I knew what I was signing. There's no *way* I would have signed without trusting my friend.
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what2do
My husband also signed, in the dark, based on the recommendation of a man he trusted. That trusted man lied.
Lied about what? Parking? Come on.
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what2do
IMO, the lie that was given to him, completely wipes out any need he may have had about honoring his secrecy. If MKP wants integrity, they need to give it also.
I can't dictate your opinion to you, but lies, omissions, misinformation regarding parking do not excuse me from my responsibility of keeping MY word. In the event that my employer lies about parking - or does something worse - like violate the terms of my employment, I'm not free to violate my non-disclosure agreement.
Are you really saying that a lie about the parking issue excuses everyone from their non-disclosure agreement?
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what2do
If my husband had known of the nudity, crazy Indian dancing, holding a dildo, and being a part of cock talk, I am sure he would not have gone.
That wouldn't suprise me. Those things sure sound crazy!
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what2do
IMO, having people sign a paper of secrecy, then subjecting them to behaviors, or witnessing behaviors that are completely out of the norm of our society is a complete lack of integrity.
You've hit something here that I think is important. If societal norms were working in a man's life, he shouldn't have a reason to attend MKP.
I'd propose that behaviors that are out of the "norm" are not necessarily wrong, they're simply not normal in our society. You're calling "out of integrity" left and right, but here - I think you're way off. Out of the norm does not mean that those things are wrong. If you're a radically conservative person, you're welcome to disagree. My understanding is that some of the things you've mentioned were based on things that were normal in those societies. As such, those things served a purpose in those societies. Someone at MKP - with a deeper understanding of the male psyche than I have - seems to think that some of those things can be a valuable experience. After going through them, I have to agree - I can see how they could be valuable to some men. I can see how they might be offensive to others.
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what2do
My husband told me very little. I spent the entire weekend he was gone investigating. I knew a lot by Sunday evening. I asked him did this happen, did that happen. He just agreed it did.
I did the same "investigation". The vast majority of the information that is pubically available is negative. I'd just ask that you talk to men who have experienced it first hand. They can't tell you about the process, but they can tell you if it did or did not improve their lives and relationships.
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what2do
The only thing he told me I had no idea about was the sexual implications he experienced Sunday in the sweat lodge. At the end, the leader said "You may now reach over and grab your Brother's dick. If any man does not want that he may remove the hand". Of course, all the men were nude. My husband said he just froze. He could not believe what he had just heard. He never saw anyone do it, but the room being very dark, it could have occurred. He just knows no one around him did that.
I can tell you very honestly that this absolutely did not occur on my weekend in any way, shape, or form. I haven't seen that as a written part of the procedure anywhere. I'm not saying that it didn't happen, I'm proposing that such isn't part of the program, unless other men tell me differently.
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what2do
And you really believe after an experience like that, he broke integrity by telling me of this incident. I personally consider this a form of sexual impropriety. These were men he had spent an entire weekend learning to trust, and this behavior was encouraged. IMO, their is no integrity in MKP.
Yes, I think he's disclosing things that he shouldn't disclose.
Again, that didn't happen to me - or anyone in our group. I don't justify, condone, or make excuses for it.
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what2do
I know, you will say this never happened on my weekend. So what. It happened on his.
You "know" that because you think I'm lying about it, or you know this doesn't normally happen on the weekend?
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what2do
If you are so impressed by the integrity and caliber of men at MKP, I am curious, why have you quit going. I would think an organization who does so much good, helps so many men, would be an organization you would be proud to be a part of.
When have I said that I've been impressed by the caliber of men at MKP? I have one friend who is very dear to me and that I respect very much. I did not make a broad statement about the caliber of men in general.
As I've stated, I think MKP does good. I think MKP also causes some problems, especially with spouses that *have* to know the fine details. I don't know where the balance is between the good they do and the hurt they obviously cause some people.
Also:
I choose not to go because I don't like the pressure to recruit. I think it dilutes the "quality" of men that are brought in.
I, like you, don't like being lectured on integrity, but being told that I need to carpool due to lack of space. (Note, such doesn't *excuse* me to behave without integrity)
I don't like not knowing where the money goes.
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what2do
I do not think they are a cult in the true sense of the word. They do exhibit many cultish behaviors. They do practice hypnotism, mind manipulation, or whatever they call it. They do life regression on these men. This can be a very dangerous thing to do for some people. I always thought this was pretty much left to psychiatrists.
I think what you're saying is true. The opinion that MKP leaders are better or worse than trained psychatrists or psychologists... Maybe.. maybe not.. I say that because MKP does seem to do some great things for some men.
Hypnotism and regression are still practiced.Quote
what2do
I do not know of any therapist who practices this, because of the dangerous effects it could have on some people.
You just won't find a lot of Jungian or Freudian professionals out there.
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what2do
Go to google, and type in coercive persuasion. Read some of the literature from very knowledgeable people. You will see this was done on you. You will see how many people have used this in the past. Particularly the North Koreans on our POW's during the Korean War.
Some local PDs like to use it informally also.
I think the comparing the MKP weekend to what a Korean POW went through is ridiculous. The basic "technique" might be the same, but we're talking about scales of magnitude difference. There's a difference in not having 3 hot meals a day and a POW who hasn't eaten anything for weeks.
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what2do
Yes, they had longer, and took it to more extremes. However, the practice is the same.
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what2do
Men are told how powerful this weekend will be. How much good it will do them. They are then subjected to a weekend of coercive persuasion. Of course, they will leave feeling this weekend was powerful, and helped them tremendously. How could most men feel any other way. The power of suggestion, in the right atmosphere, is very persuasive.
Sure.. it can be very persuasive.
Could it not be a real thing to some men also? Real in the sense that it provides a positive long term impact in their lives?
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what2do
MKP is just another LGAT. In time, like most others programs, they will wither away, and something else will take their place. And I promise you, whatever takes their place will cost a lot of money. Personally, I suggest if anyone feels they need such a weekend, go buy a good self help book about whatever one may think they have issues with, and read it, then practice it. A lot cheaper and less stressful.
If we all could cure through self-help books, we wouldn't need therapy.
Therapist push into uncomforable ground that we might not even have insight or ability to address ourselves... I wish we could just read a book.
If you follow Jungian or Freudian theory, you'd find that there is a lot of "subconscious" activity that isn't deal with via self-help... Personally, I don't buy into either theory more than about 10%.
Mankind project
Posted by:
cb1000rider
()
Date: May 13, 2006 12:16AM
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what2do
CB, I thought about something else. I have a copy of some suggested Igroup activities. This was copies directly off the website of a group in a large city. I will list some of the suggested activities.
Writing a story of things you wish your father had said to you. Then letting some man hold you and read this story to you.
Giving each other body massages (it did not state nudity, I am assuming it would because it would be hard to massage thru clothing)
Shaving each other with razors
Washing each others feet
Undressing and putting on another man's clothes
I consider this to be very intimate behavior. And this should not be discussed with spouse because it breaks integrity.
I do not know about you, but I do not expect my husband to be intimate with anyone except me. Intimacy does not have to be sexual, but is damn suggestive. I can assure you, the wives of these men would be shocked to learn their husbands were doing this.
All of these behaviors are certainly out of the norm.
Layperson theory:
They break down walls that we've built up over a lifetime.
Breaking down these walls lets us, as men, get in touch with our feelings.. things that (personally) can be very foreign to us.
I have a different opinon that you. If my wife was going through the above procedure with another woman or women, I wouldn't feel threatened. I would not feel betrayed at all.. Perhaps I'm a bit too liberal?
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what2do
Here is an anaogy that might could compare. This is FICTION.
I work with a woman who appears to have a wonderful marriage. So happy and content. I ask her how she does this. What is her secret. She shares with me her and her husband went to a wonderful retreat and have learned the joy of a long lasting marriage. She says she will get me the info. The literature sounds great. We are told there will be some work that might make us uncomfortable, but the rewards are worth it. We agree to go.
There is paperwork to be filled out, and a confidentiality agreement that we can never reveal what happens.
We go thru some intimidating stuff. Not much food, not much sleep, we do not see each other very often. Lots of drum beating. Very different experiences. A lot of looking at ourselves and how we got to where we are in life. Come Saturday night. It is late, we are tired. We are told to undress. The bottom line is this is a "swingers" group.
Keep in mind, they do nothing illegal. Many people practice this lifestyle, and believe it makes their marriage better. They have thrown off the shackles of their repressed sexuality. Believe they have a better marriage.
Now me and my husband are in shock, and leave. Are we expected to keep integrity and never speak of this to anyone? We did sign a paper up front stating we would. This group is not doing anything illegal. These are all consenting adults. If someone else we know is considering going on this weekend, do we keep integrity because of a paper we signed and not reveal what the weekend is really about?
Good analogy. I like it. I've read about "the lifestyle" and certainly have heard testimony that it can improve a marriage.. Who am I to judge the relationship of another person? It's not for me.
I think that you can keep your integrity in regard to non-disclosure. You can inform your friend(s) that are considering going that you did not have a good experience over the weekend. You tell them that you signed non-disclosure about exactly what went on, but you feel that the weekend was misleading and definitely not something that you (based on your value system) would ever be involved in. Because you feel obligated to do what you say you were going to do, you can't give the details, but encourage your friend to ask questions and set limits up front.
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what2do
Do you not understand that us wives on this site feel betrayed by the men who encouraged our husbands to go into thing, completely blind.
Yes, I understand that MKP is causing some pain to spouses. I never said that such was the not the case.
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what2do
IMO, the committment of marriage supercedes any paper signed at MKP, or any such organization, even a church. When secrets creep into a marriage, they usually continue to grow. When nudity and intimacy (not sex) with another person is allowed, and the wife is kept in the dark, a division is put between spouses.
You're impling that any form of intimacy outside of marriage isn't healthy to the relationship. On the surface, I'd be in strong agreement with that statement. However, I have "intimate" conversations with male friend, I don't feel that I'm betraying my wife. I can't say that secrets are good for a marriage and I'm not FOR MKP keeping or promoting secrets from spouses, but they obviously do so... I don't defend that practice.
I'm not a fan of the intimacy statements you're making. I think that such "intimacy" is a way to meet an end, which is getting men to open up to each other and getting those men in touch with feelings. I *think* that's what's being practiced. It's probably a good and practical way to do it, but I'm not a therapist. The ability to reach those feelings and be open could (in many cases) be directly beneficitial to the relationship at home.. I think you're assuming that it's only a one way experience and only part of the MKP group, it gets lost at home. I don't think that's the case.
The other problem that I see with claiming intimacy is that it leads to people making claims about sexuality, and then that leads to people making claims about a homsexual (or sexual) agenda within MKP. I've seen those posts too.... If we can't steer you away from MKP truthfully, we'll plan seeds of homophobia and sexual acts. I'm glad to see you're not making those claims.
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what2do
That is not what a marriage is about. Show me a marriage where these kind of secrets are kept, and I will show you a failing marriage. It may not culminate in divorce, but the marriage is wounded.
It's ironic that part of the MKP procedure is to bring secrets and shadows to the surface, yet MKP won't expose their process. I'm familiar with marriages that have secrets. I've heard of men whose marriages are complete shams. I've heard partners claim that MKP "ruined" their marriage because they were blissfully ignorant previous to MKP and men got home and were a lot more honest about who they were.
I don't judge "swingers". If they say they have good marriages, I don't argue. I won't tell you that MKP secrets are good for your marriage. I will say that being in touch with feelings could benefit your partnership long term, but I understand that you feel uncomfortable now that you know about parts of the procedure. If your man is in touch with his feelings, lives a life of integrity, and feels his life is working for him: He DOES NOT NEED MKP. I think the MKP leaders will tell you that also, I've heard a few say it.
I don't deny your feelings - or say that MKP is without negatives.
Mankind project
Posted by:
feldspar
()
Date: May 13, 2006 12:44AM
[[quote]quote]You've hit something here that I think is important. If societal norms were working in a man's life, he shouldn't have a reason to attend MKP. [/quote]
Actually, I think you've hit something there. The presumption that someone attending MKP means that societal norms aren't working in a man's life. I think this is the essence of the problem with this type of educational experience, it doesn't leave the possibility open that societal norms are working for a man. That's why I think more information, without disclosing the process per se could be provided before hand. Think of it this way, lets pretend you have high blood pressure and signed up for a course that advertised they could teach you to control your blood pressure. In this course they taught you all the healthy ways to eat and excercise to control your blood pressure. But you were already doing those things, would it benefit you. Or say your blood pressure was caused by chronic kidney disease and these measures COULDN"T help you. Would you feel that it was unfair they didn't disclose how they planned on teaching you to control your blood pressure. Bottom line, The mind in a hell of a lot more complex than the tone of a blood vessel. [/quote]
Actually, I think you've hit something there. The presumption that someone attending MKP means that societal norms aren't working in a man's life. I think this is the essence of the problem with this type of educational experience, it doesn't leave the possibility open that societal norms are working for a man. That's why I think more information, without disclosing the process per se could be provided before hand. Think of it this way, lets pretend you have high blood pressure and signed up for a course that advertised they could teach you to control your blood pressure. In this course they taught you all the healthy ways to eat and excercise to control your blood pressure. But you were already doing those things, would it benefit you. Or say your blood pressure was caused by chronic kidney disease and these measures COULDN"T help you. Would you feel that it was unfair they didn't disclose how they planned on teaching you to control your blood pressure. Bottom line, The mind in a hell of a lot more complex than the tone of a blood vessel. [/quote]
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