Mankind project
Posted by:
ginah
()
Date: May 11, 2006 02:07AM
Thank You Ivy, very very very much!!!!!!!!!!!
Quote
Ivy
CB your posting to ginah!
First of all, I don't care what kind of paper her husband signed, he also signed one the day ginah married him, and that is most important,..... not to mention, the papers he signed
with the MKP mean nothing!!
And if she did tell here girlfriends things, it would be just that a (Friend) probably one of many years, and not some one she just met at a weekend, .... trying to get her to tell intimate things about her self.......
hello, like the guys from the MKP are going to hang out with you when you leave! NOT! Maybe these guys should just go have a drink with their buddy's!
Plus her girlfriend will not charge her!
And Ginahs husband loyalty and trust belong to her! How dare you try to take that! Or the MKP try to take that!
Unfortunately I would have to say that the reason
that most the guys don't talk about their weekend is because they are ashamed! That they did some of the thing that they did!
And are afraid that in their wife's eyes, they will look like less of a man, and guess what after we find out just part of it, then they do appeal as less of a man! Regardless of what you think!
Mankind project
Posted by:
cb1000rider
()
Date: May 11, 2006 02:42AM
Quote
Ivy
First of all, I don't care what kind of paper her husband signed, he also signed one the day ginah married him, and that is most important,..... not to mention, the papers he signed
with the MKP mean nothing!!
My point is that if he feels he can't keep secrets from his wife then he has no business signing those "papers". Otherwise he's acting in bad faith and attaching his word to an agreement that means nothing to him.
If he acts in bad faith signing agreements, what kind of man is he? Would he lie? Maybe steal? Perhaps cheat on his wife? If he is willing to honor his written or spoken word, it makes him more likely to honor the vows he made to his wife.. and be a good father to his kids.
Again, look up the definition of integrity. I understand that the concept of keeping secrets from a spouse may not be a positive concept, but I believe that if you say you're going to do something, you should do it.. Or you shouldn't agree to do so. Otherwise, how can you count on that person as a husband, let alone a friend?
I have certain work secrets that I keep from my spouse and friends because of the type of job that I have. I agreed that I can't disclose what I work on. My marriage does not allow me to violate that agreement at will. I promised to love, honor, and charish my wife. I did not promise to violate my integrity because she is curious. If I felt that my marriage vows were in conflict with the MKP confidentiality agreement, my work confidentiality agreement, or *ANY* other agreement, those are not contracts that I would enter into voluntarily, understand?
Gina's husband has a choice. He has free will. He shouldn't be badgered into disclosure of a process that he promised he would not disclose. Otherwise, his word to his wife, his word to his friends, and his ability to enter into any sort of meaningful agreement is decreased.
Quote
Ivy
And if she did tell here girlfriends things, it would be just that a (Friend) probably one of many years, and not some one she just met at a weekend, .... trying to get her to tell intimate things about her self.......
You are making conditional exceptions and excuses. It's ok to talk to X, but not ok to talk to Y.
Again, if men are expected to honor their word, even to their wives - this is a non-issue. If men are expected to default on their word, not keep their integrity, then I see that you have a very valid point.
Quote
Ivy
hello, like the guys from the MKP are going to hang out with you when you leave! NOT! Maybe these guys should just go have a drink with their buddy's!
Plus her girlfriend will not charge her!
I think one of the problems charged in this group is that MKP doesn't just "leave" your life. Drinking buddies don't exactly sign non-disclosure agreements and may or may not be people of integrity. They may talk to their wives, they may talk to friends, and pretty soon the "word" gets out.
I agree that MKP charges for the weekend, but the volunteers that listen and staff are (vast majority) volunteers or other people attending the weekend. The friendships and relationships that men build over that weekend can be very real. I assure you it's not a "pay as you go" service.
Quote
Ivy
And Ginahs husband loyalty and trust belong to her! How dare you try to take that! Or the MKP try to take that!
I have taken no one's trust or loyalty. I don't natively "trust" MKP - or anyone else, by default. If I did, I wouldn't tell you that I question where the money goes. I was introduced to MKP by a very dear and trusted friend that I've known for years. He's earned my trust. People that your husband knows via MKP may or may not be trusted, the process encourages them to trust...
It's Ginah's choice to view the weekend in a negative manner and attach distrust to it. Again, the husband has free will and a choice. Why make him *pay* for a weekend that may have positive results for him as a man and potentially both of them as a couple?
If the husbands integrity is worth nothing, how can Ginah trust him as a man? If he violates his word to me, signs things that he has no intention of keeping, or makes promises he can't keep, how does that reflect on Ginah as his wife?
There was a woman that posted (above) about denying intimacy with her husband over this issue. Shame on her. That woman is playing right into the hands of those that would claim that women use sex as currency.
Quote
Ivy
Unfortunately I would have to say that the reason
that most the guys don't talk about their weekend is because they are ashamed! That they did some of the thing that they did!
And are afraid that in their wife's eyes, they will look like less of a man, and guess what after we find out just part of it, then they do appeal as less of a man! Regardless of what you think!
You may be correct, that some men are ashamed. That would not suprise me.
I can tell you openly and honestly, that I haven't disclosed the details of that weekend because I agreed not to do so. I believe that doing so would violate my integrity. I have a spouse that would accept "the process" and not attempt to make me ashamed of it. I have no fear of telling her what went on at all. After reading your post and other posts of angry women, I'm very thankful that I have a spouse who can accept that I may have given my word about something and for one weekend out of many, I may not disclose the details. She trusts me and I trust her. I paid no price at home for my weekend.. Thankfully.
Some men come to the weekend with a lot of shame.
Consider (just for a second) that the details of the weekend are something that needs to be experienced first hand and that disclosing the techinical details of that procedure might take away from the experience for those men and the details don't begin to describe it. You've already heard of MKP being associated with a cult... The yahoo group states that MKP is anti-Christian and pro-homosexual. It's easy to take the procedure out of context. I can't say that my every day life is like an MKP weekend, but I'm suggesting that there just *might* be some sound results behind the procedure. Again, I'd encorage you to talk to men who have been through the weekend first hand.... Talk to both active MKP members and people (like me) who have made a choice not to continue.
Understanding the schedule does nothing to illuminate the experience.
Mankind project
Posted by:
feldspar
()
Date: May 11, 2006 05:18AM
Quote
Understanding the schedule does nothing to illuminate the experience
No but understanding the reasons behind the techniques used can illuminate the effects. BTW, I've done the weekend and the I-group thing. I think it can work for some people, but why does the fact that guided imagery and other techniques might be employed need to be kept secret. MKP could avoid a lot of anger and bad press with a little more upfront information and still not disclose everything that goes on.
Mankind project
Posted by:
cb1000rider
()
Date: May 11, 2006 06:28AM
Ginah,
Try to use the "quote" function. It will make the discussion much easier for everyone to follow.
If I didn't answer it, it's because I missed it in parsing your post.
I agree, men are not told they will be put through LGAT.
They are not told about the procedure.
Men are told that they cannot disclose up front. I don't think that signing the disclosure and then disclosing due to "conditions" is a valid excuse. If non-disclosure is conditional, they shouldn't sign.
I do not feel that men were "broken". I was not "broken". The process as descibed can be stressful, but they'll have to try much harder to "break" men. Could the process break someone? Perhaps.. If he was on the edge anyway.
Try to use the "quote" function. It will make the discussion much easier for everyone to follow.
Quote
ginah
<Of course, I was trying to bait someone into answering my questions. You never answered the one about a man (and spouse) not knowing anything about what the weekend is about, being put through an intense weekend of LGAT, and then being told he has to make an "oath" of secrecy. How is that integrity on the part of MKP??????? These men are broken, and then pushed into giving an "oath" that just might go against a previous one given to his spouse............ How does that fit????>
If I didn't answer it, it's because I missed it in parsing your post.
I agree, men are not told they will be put through LGAT.
They are not told about the procedure.
Men are told that they cannot disclose up front. I don't think that signing the disclosure and then disclosing due to "conditions" is a valid excuse. If non-disclosure is conditional, they shouldn't sign.
I do not feel that men were "broken". I was not "broken". The process as descibed can be stressful, but they'll have to try much harder to "break" men. Could the process break someone? Perhaps.. If he was on the edge anyway.
Quote
ginah
<To make a relationship stronger, and to understand where your loved one is coming from, disclosure IS the best way to go. Don't you think that your (if you have one) spouse "might" be more understanding and caring of some of your behaviors, reactions, actions, if she/he knows where you are coming from????>Quote
I believe that disclosure is appropriate in most circumstances.
Talk to a professional therapist.. Talk to a few, while you're at it... Ask if spouses should *always* disclose and if a policy of 100% unconditional disclosure is benefitial to the relationship uncondtionally.Quote
ginah
Not knowing what he was signing in regards to!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and then AFTER AN INTENSE WEEKEND OF LGAT. Before he went he had no idea what he was signing in regards to. Our thought was as to what other men might tell him about themselves which I COMPLETELY agree should be kept in confidence.
If he can't sign in good faith, he shouldn't sign. Period.
MKP can't force him to disclose things about your relationship. I would expect him to keep certain things to himself. MKP leaders might disagree with me, but integrity works both ways. I saw men refuse MKP orders in regard to sacred objects that represent relationships. I applaud them for their integrity.
I wouldn't sign a non-disclosure in regard to something I know nothing about.. The only reason I did sign is because I trusted that man that brought me to MKP. He has a wonderful Christian relationship with his wife (as far as I know and can tell). He has not disclosed information about the process.Quote
ginah
No, from what he told me (after I found the info on the internet) that was not his choice, the way they were immediately treated and his phone etc. taken away??????? Yes, sure, he could have called while being screamed at????>
He could have called when he arrived. After the process begins, I'd say that his excuse is accurate. At my weekend, certain exceptions were made for men who had made promises and needed to keep their integrity.
If MKP did not allow men to keep these promises, they are not practicing what they preach.Quote
ginah
Yes, my husband has very high "integrity", but, after the weekend of LGAT, it tore him up, a promise he made to me years ago, a promise he made to his new "brothers" after LGAT, oh yes, healthy healthy healthy.
Are you a therapist? Do you have a background in metal health?
Are you calling it healthy because the thought of non-disclosure raises red flags or do you actively know LGAT to be unhealthy for everyone?
Do you believe that some men benefit from the process that MKP provides? If so, do you believe that their families could benefit?
Many, many men live a life of shadows. Wifes can be fine with this because they simply do not know what is going on. MKP encourages them to step from the shadows. For some relationships, this could have a very negative impact as the falsehood of the relationship is exposed. Perhaps it's better that we don't know about these shadows and bury our collective heads in the sand at home?Quote
ginah
<I was being asked to, what felt like to me, throw my "integrity" of honesty about our relationship (after a promise we had made to each other years ago), and now allow secrets into our relationsip.>
Ginah, if he directly made a promise to you personally to not keep *any* secrets from you, I understand why you're pissed. He never should have gone to MKP - or ever signed a confidentiality agreement. He is out of integrity either way, in that case... Catch-22.
If you're speaking of marriage vows, I do not see how non-disclosure of a weekend violates those vows.Quote
ginah
He was given a form to Pledge a certain amount over a time frame.... I refused to allow this since we are NOT RICH and our children could better use new pants than MPK!!!!!!!!!!!>
Do you have that form? I was never given anything like it or asked to contribute or pledge anything other than pay for I-group.
I see your reasoning (children needing new pants) as justification for a your position that is excusive and unnecessary. If your kids need new pants, your husband shouldn't be spending $600 on MKP period.Quote
ginah
IRS forms that are public records that I found...... many different names for different states, slipping through having to pay taxes, I am still trying to trace where the money is going, many many many businesses owned by MKP "persons" which MKP then pays to have "websites" etc. etc. etc. created. Money going from their left pocket to their right pocket!!!!
Provide links to public records, please.
Understand that non-profits that operate in states may require registration in that state, resulting in multiple registrations. I agree that MKP does own some businesses directly.
You won't find evidence of non-payment of taxes in public records. Non-profits are non-profit.. If they show a profit, they can lose their 501c3 status. Board members that get paid have to report the income.
Again, you mentioned millions of dollars. To put it bluntly: show me where people are getting paid high salaries (or other payments) in the MKP heiarchy. Basically put up or shut up. Claiming that millions are going into people's pockets, but you can't show *any* proof isn't helping.Quote
ginah
<If you go to their web site they claim to be "NON PROFIT"!!!!!!!!!!!!!>
I didn't know this, but it is reflected in the public records I've found also.
Non-profit status does *NOT* mean that board members don't get paid.Quote
ginah
<I believe the IRS forms with MKPers names point in that direction.......>
Again, provide a link to record.
Show me a form with names and millions of dollars. You said it, now PROVE it. If MKP leadership is making a mint, I'd certainly like to know.Quote
ginah
No, secrecy is different from confidentiality of what others tell you. I see no reason why my husband should not be allowed to share what should be his newfound truth and joy of himself with his wife and how he was able to do so if it was actually healthy for him, obviously I am not going to go to a mens mkp weekend............>
Secrecy can be accomplished through confidentiality.
I do not know the reasoning why MKP chooses to exclude the family from the process. My personal theory (layperson) is that men and women have different barriers in terms of society and the way they deal with subconscious, hide things differently, and bring up shame. Breaking through those barriers *could* be a different process for men and women, generally speaking.
There is nothing that prevents your husband from expressing how he feels after his weekend. You mentioned yourself that he talked about how he felt. There is no reason why he couldn't share his joy (or other feelings) with you, no reason why he can't discuss the things he discovered about himself. He just can't talk about the process that brought him to that discovery.Quote
ginah
<After an INTENSE WEEKEND OF LGAT>
The definition of integrity is not changed by your comments above, sorry.
LGAT is not an excuse and it's not a waver.
If he cheated on you after a weekend of LGAT, would he get a pass? I doubt it... The rules still apply.Quote
ginah
<I would say you sound brainwashed. Sometimes life throws things at us and we have to do something different than what we said, does that mean you are breaking your integrity "word"?
No, if circumstances outside your control influence your ability to keep your word and make it physically impossible for you to keep your word, then I wouldn't call you out of integrity. I would call you out of integrity if the you had to make a CHOICE in regard to doing what you said you were going to do or not.
Clearly, if I say I'm going to drive the car to work and the car breaks down, I'm not out of integrity. I did not will the car to break down. I did not choose for the car to break down.
Signing non-disclosure and then ignoring my agreement is something that I CHOOSE to do with free will.
Surely you've dealt with people in your life that always have a story or an excuse about why they didn't do what they said they were going to do. From my experience, many of these people *believe* their own excuses and from their perspectives can't see a thing wrong with doing what they are doing. Over time, they'll lose credibility because they have no integrity - just a laundry list of excuses and no personal accountablity.Quote
ginah
Or just that life changes what we have to do at times? So, I tell my kids, tomorrow we are going to the park, the car breaks down and we can't go, does that mean I am losing my integrity?
No, you did not choose for the car to break down.Quote
ginah
Or, I say I will be somewhere at a certain time, I leave in plenty of time and whoa, a car accident that makes me late. Do I lose my credibility?
No, probably not.. Unless your experience has taught you that there is *usually* a car accident at that time.Quote
ginah
No, it just means things happen. But, if a husband makes a promise to a wife, and then makes a different promise to someone else, who should he keep his "integrity" with?
Your husband was out of integrity by making that 2nd promise. I thought you were speaking of marriage vows in an earlier post and I saw no problems with non-disclosure of the MKP weekend and those vows. If your husband promised to disclose everything to you and STILL signed away that he would not disclose the details of the weekend, he IS out of integrity. What should he do now? I really don't know.Quote
ginah
MKP is forcing men to make a choice that "IS NOT" healthy for them and their family.
No. MKP is not forcing men to do anything. The MKP was something that your husband CHOOSE to do. Your husband made that choice.Quote
ginah
<I know why "sacred" items are taken away, are you going to tell me it is a safety issue as I keep hearing from my husband's I group?
You'll have to be specific about which items you are referring to.
Some items that are "sacred" to men pose a legitimate threat to other men, especially if high emotion levels are involved. Note that I don't claim that the process is 100% safe or OK for everyone.Quote
ginah
I [b:056807b80a]know[/b:056807b80a] it is to "remove" them from their "lives" and start "breaking" them down.
Lets have our own accountablity here:
You [b:056807b80a]know[/b:056807b80a] or [b:056807b80a]you THINK[/b:056807b80a]?
Perhaps taking things away from men that they use for recognition in society might make those men feel disarmed and naked?
I'm not affirming or denying your opinon, but lets state it as what it is: an opinion.
You're making suppositions about a procedure which you did not attend and seeking advice about that group on a "cult education forum". What kind of perspective do you think you're going to get here? Do you expect any sort of balance in perspective? Have you actually talked to any people that have gone through MKP and found it helpful (yes, I'm assuming they exist). Perhaps one of their spouses found the experience to be a positive thing for that union, if indirectly? Nah.. impossible.. Couldn't happen.Quote
ginah
If MKPers can't be honest with this one, how can I trust them with more important issues? Another lie from MKP?? Or just an unwillingness to admit why they do so, how are they keeping their integrity with this one????>
Ginah, I'm not admitting it because I don't know it to be true.
I'm not denying it because I don't know it to be false.
You're asking questions about things that may reveal information about he process, as such you may not get the answers you want. They *may* be keeping their integrity by not revealing information about the process.Quote
ginah
<I am aware that the weekend was not about me or about the relationship between my husband and I. My responce to that is, anything I do in this life, and anything my husband does in this life, impacts our relationship. If I have made a promise to him, I will keep it, not change it just because a bunch of LGAT MKPers tell me to.>
I agree that your husbands life will impact yours. Such is a reasonable and sane assumption. The focus on the weekend is somewhat selfish (IMHO) - it's designed to help that man. There may be relationship repercussions, especially if that man lived a life of secrecy and shadow.
In regard to your husband's promise to tell you everthing always, I've already replied. He made a poor choice and now is in a catch-22 situation.Quote
ginah
<You are if you had previously made a promise to your wife, and as far as I am concerned, it is a lie of admission.............>
Let's clear this up. What *exactly* was the promise he made to you. I've assumed above that he promised to never keep *any* secrets from you.Quote
ginah
RE: Deprived over the weekend
<Your answer was just the answer I expected from an MKPer. Yes, life deprives us of all kinds of things that we don't choose. Does that mean it is right?>
Ethically speaking, I see nothing wrong with denying men access to some of their "things". I've already said that if I felt there was a health risk, I'd speak up about it... It's much to-do over nothing and a bit "whiney", IMHO.
America needs a little self deprivation every once and a while... This opinion has *nothing* to do with anything I've learned at MKP. Do you give your kids everything they want? Do you expect to get everything you want as an adult? Taking away certain items forces introspection and *could* possibly free men from outside distraction.Quote
ginah
RE: "secrecy" about the procedure.
That was not an answer, that was a "broken record" statement of someone not thinking......... If you don't know what is going to happen, but believe that you are being asked to not disclose any information about what other men might tell you, how are you agreeing to anything "upfront" other than to keep what other's might tell you in confidence to yourself?
I thought about it before I signed. If I needed to disclose things that I saw and did that weekend, I'd feel that I need to be explicit about that up front. Some men will refuse to sign that document sighting "illegal activites" or the like, that would be fine. Nothing illegal goes on.
Tell you what, Ginah, I hold in my hands a blank private contract between you and me. I'm not going to let you read it. Please sign it for me. Question: Are you going to cry about what happens when you sign that contract or are you going to refuse to sign it? It's your choice. You have free will.Quote
ginah
Then you are made to give an "oath" of secrecy after an intense weekend of LGAT, how are you then required to keep it???
I wasn't MADE to give anything. I choose to sign my right to disclosure away. I was not under duress. No one held a gun to my head.Quote
ginah
When the police arrest the "wrong" guy, keep him awake for hours pounding on him/her emotionally, and then the person finally says "I did it", are they then required to continue saying they did it??? LGAT is the same thing....>
LGAT may be a form of duress, I wouldn't argue with that.
The non-disclosure is signed before *any* LGAT happens. There is no duress and men are free to not sign, and not attend.Quote
ginah
So, within this men's group, integrity, honesty, guilt/shame is talked about and how a "man" should keep his integrity and honesty and not do anything that would cause him guilt/shame and if he does he should talk about it and "feel" it. So, if what happened is something you would not tell your wife about, is that not a form of guilt/shame as to what went on???Quote
ginah
RE: men feel guilt and shame in regard to the MKP weekend and are refusing to talk about it.
<No, did you not read what I wrote? Are you bouncing around the real question? So, if what happened is something you would not tell your wife about, is that not a form of guilt/shame as to what went on???>
I read what you wrote.
People are motivated to do (or not do) something by many things potentially. You're making the assertion that your husband (or some other man) isn't talking about the weekend because he feels guilt and ashamed of what went on. I'm saying that you may have a valid explaination in some cases. I'm also suggesting that some men may not disclose because of their integrity - not because of guilt or shame. Personally, I have no guilt or shame in regard to what went on. I don't feel those things in regard to the weekend and can tell you that they are not motivating me in regard to disclosure. I will talk about it with other men who non-disclosure does not apply.
I'll give you a pass on my question.Quote
ginah
<I understand that my husband went through LGAT, I understand that my husband made a promise to me a very long time ago. I did not "demand" answers, I just asked, and was put off because of an "oath" of secrecy he gave to his new "brothers" after a PROMISE he had made to me. ALARM BELLS STARTED RINGING, would they not for you in regards to someone you love?>
Note I do not give you husband any sort of behavioral, ethical, or moral pass in regard to not telling you about the weekend if he agreed to do so in advance. I will call him out of integrity by going on that weekend and signing non-disclosure if he KNEW he had made a conflicting agreement with you in the past. I do not think that his word to MKP means any more that his word to you, if he promised to disclose everything.
I'd be curious to know this:
[b:056807b80a]Did your husband understand that he would not be telling you about the weekend, in direct conflict to the promise he made to you years ago?[/b:056807b80a] You seem pretty firm on it... I'd just check to see if he understands it the same way.Quote
ginah
<Actually they use a form of Jungian Psychology which is dangerous when not used by trained (professionals), it is still a field of study not quite understood and for people to use it without correct training is just plain uncaring and as far as I am concerned and "stupid".>
Are you familiar with psychology from a professional perspective or are you merely passing on the opinions of other people in this forum?
Is the view that it is dangerous your professional opinion? If not your professional opinion, what is that opinion based on, perhaps the posts of others?
Psychology is a field which has many theories. I'd propose that the entire field is fraught more than one way to accomplish a specific goal.
I would not disagree that most MKP leaders do not have formal education in psychology.. Note, I'm not going to say that they don't use Jungian self-discovery techniques. I'm not going to say that it isn't dangerous for some people. Generally speaking, I won't disagree with your statements above, but I think there should be some balance in the discussion:
1) Do you think that MKP could possibly be helpful to some men?
2) If the MKP procedure is so dangerous, why is it recommended by some professional therapist and members of the clergy?
3) Is there *any* possible benefit to this weekend, what-so-ever?Quote
ginah
<No, because I made a promise to him years ago that I would NOT and that our issues were ours and not anyone else's.... HIS REQUEST OF ME A LONG TIME AGO...... which I have kept!!!!!!!!!!!! Our promise to each other...>
I applaud YOUR integrity. If more people were like you, there wouldn't be a need for groups like MKP.No.Quote
ginah
<Ah, see, so now, every word I say, I have to think about, is this something he might disclose?
You miss my point. If you've asked him not to disclose, but expect him to violate that agreement with others, isn't that a double standard?Quote
ginah
Is this something I have to request him not to disclose? Is this something that would bother me if he did? So now I can't just have a heartfelt conversation with him without wondering. I cannot just be comfortable with my husband as I alway's have been?...Yes, that makes me angry!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1>
Instead of being angry, why don't you ask your husband if he's talked about issue X? It doesn't disclose the procedure. There is no reason why you can't have a heartfelt conversation with him.. You just can't ask him about what he "did" that weekend in terms of procedure.Quote
ginah
<Yes I am angry, this group uses LGAT with untrained people (where is the integrity in that?), and then forces a man to give an oath of secrecy, and it is supposed to be acceptable.
I agree (my opinion also) that MKP does use LGAT.
Your claim that MPK "forces" a man to give an oath of secrecy is false. I understand you are angry, but that agreement is signed up front. Yes, without full knowlege of the weekend, but it's signed in good faith and of free will.Quote
ginah
I know what integrity is, I have kept it in my relationship with my husband and life for a very long time, it does not require "secrecy", which is different from confidentiality of what a person tells you about themselves.>
I never said that integrity requires secrecy. It just requires that your husband do what he said he was going to do. If he said two conflicting things, he's out of integrity one way or the other.Quote
ginah
<No, I did not attend the weekend, but I am not stupid and have done much research, called many govt. agencies, asked many questions, Mankind Project is under watch, listed as an LGAT under the term CULT..>
Let me ask you bluntly, then... In plain english, rather than allowing you to promote that association based on your logic above:
[b:056807b80a]Do you believe that MKP is a cult?[/b:056807b80a]
If so, there are people that will support your opinon.
If you believe that going through an MKP weekend is a mortal sin, there are people that will support that opinion also.
If you believe that MKP promotes homosexuality, there are people that will support that opinion also.
My point is: Maybe try for a little balance... You're making up your mind by reading some very one sided "forums". Try for some balance. Some forum won't even let people who have positive things about MKP to say speak at all.Quote
ginah
Thank You for at least trying to answer some of my questions. I think you might need to do some research on this group you are so much trying to defend.>
You are welcome. I am sorry if I'm not far enough up to answer all of them. Understand that you're not likely to get answers that expose the "process". I'm trying - key word is *trying* to strike a balance here and understand why you are angry at your husband, especially if he promised you one thing then did another. All I ask is that before you decide MKP is a bad-bad cult (or unhealthy LGAT) that you seek the opinions of *both* sides so you can have a more balanced view.
Mankind project
Posted by:
what2do
()
Date: May 11, 2006 02:11PM
CB, I found a copy of a Form 990 Return of Organization Exempt from Income Tax for the year 2003 of the San Diego organzation. This has been posted on a blog for quite a while. Under the year 2003 there is a statement that says "Open to Public Inspection". I can only assume this means anyone can look at this document.
The total revenue brought in by this one group for 2003 was $2,219,864.00. Total expenses were $2,053,700.00. There was a net assets or fund balances at end of year of $856,386.00. Sounds pretty profitable to me. I am not an accountant, so do not totally understand everything on here. What puzzled me was page 4 of this tax return. It had men's names from all over the country, and Australia where it had paid monies to these men.
If I am correct, and this is the tax form for just one group, I cannot imagine how much monies are generated nationwide.
Google "A Day in the life of an alcoholic". This is a blog. Look for a particular blog titled "nonprofit bullshit". Click on the title of this article and it will take you to this tax return.
Go to my next post, it has the address.
The total revenue brought in by this one group for 2003 was $2,219,864.00. Total expenses were $2,053,700.00. There was a net assets or fund balances at end of year of $856,386.00. Sounds pretty profitable to me. I am not an accountant, so do not totally understand everything on here. What puzzled me was page 4 of this tax return. It had men's names from all over the country, and Australia where it had paid monies to these men.
If I am correct, and this is the tax form for just one group, I cannot imagine how much monies are generated nationwide.
Google "A Day in the life of an alcoholic". This is a blog. Look for a particular blog titled "nonprofit bullshit". Click on the title of this article and it will take you to this tax return.
Go to my next post, it has the address.
Mankind project
Posted by:
cb1000rider
()
Date: May 11, 2006 08:47PM
Thanks a bunch, what2do.
I don't have a background in accounting either, but I've served as a volunteer for one non-profit (animal benefit reltated) and served as the board member of another.
What I see in this form:
MKP has a gross income of over 2M.
They NET a profit. That is, they're not losing money at the end of the year. This year it's unde 1M. If they own property (which they do) or have facilities that will require maintence, they should be keeping a reserve fund. If they are buying more property, expanding their faciliites, etc - then I *believe* a net gain is allowed.
If they show a net gain year after year, have more than adequate reserves, and aren't expanding then they can get in a bind with their non-profit status.
I'm mainly concerned about the post that Ginah wrote that millions were going into the pockets of men. There are facts contained in the iformation that you've provided and I'm very happy with facts!
The HIGHEST salary listed for an (executive director) position is 73k.
The next highest salary is 46k.
Not sure where you work, but that's peanuts for an executive position.
Average salary (median) is $26,500. That's about what a starting teacher makes in my state... If the money is making men rich, I sure don't see it.
I don't have a background in accounting either, but I've served as a volunteer for one non-profit (animal benefit reltated) and served as the board member of another.
What I see in this form:
MKP has a gross income of over 2M.
They NET a profit. That is, they're not losing money at the end of the year. This year it's unde 1M. If they own property (which they do) or have facilities that will require maintence, they should be keeping a reserve fund. If they are buying more property, expanding their faciliites, etc - then I *believe* a net gain is allowed.
If they show a net gain year after year, have more than adequate reserves, and aren't expanding then they can get in a bind with their non-profit status.
I'm mainly concerned about the post that Ginah wrote that millions were going into the pockets of men. There are facts contained in the iformation that you've provided and I'm very happy with facts!
The HIGHEST salary listed for an (executive director) position is 73k.
The next highest salary is 46k.
Not sure where you work, but that's peanuts for an executive position.
Average salary (median) is $26,500. That's about what a starting teacher makes in my state... If the money is making men rich, I sure don't see it.
Mankind project
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: May 11, 2006 09:29PM
cb1000rider:
A detailed and independently audited financial statement would be necessary to understand the organization's complete finances.
Is the statement you reviewed for these quoted salaries independently audited and if so by what accounting firm?
Did this stated budget disclose any and all compensation paid out?
This would include any and all paid benefits, expenses, car allowance, etc.
$76,000 annual salary might be considered quite substantial depending upon what state and city the person so salaried lives in.
A detailed and independently audited financial statement would be necessary to understand the organization's complete finances.
Is the statement you reviewed for these quoted salaries independently audited and if so by what accounting firm?
Did this stated budget disclose any and all compensation paid out?
This would include any and all paid benefits, expenses, car allowance, etc.
$76,000 annual salary might be considered quite substantial depending upon what state and city the person so salaried lives in.
Mankind project
Posted by:
ginah
()
Date: May 11, 2006 10:30PM
Quote
$76,000 annual salary might be considered substantial depending upon what state and city the person so salaried lives in.
For me, when you look at the businesses these guys own, they are paying their right pocket from their left pocket. Yes, that is an assumption on my part while trying to track what is going where. I am not an accountant either. My husband however is savvy in this issue and has his own concerns...
Mankind project
Posted by:
ginah
()
Date: May 12, 2006 12:51AM
Quote
If he can't sign in good faith, he shouldn't sign. Period.
As I stated, we "thought" he was signing an agreement to not disclose any information he might gain about other people, and we both agreed that was a good thing.
Quote
Are you a therapist? Do you have a background in metal health?
Are you calling it healthy because the thought of non-disclosure raises red flags or do you actively know LGAT to be unhealthy for everyone?
Do you believe that some men benefit from the process that MKP provides? If so, do you believe that their families could benefit
I do have a background in mental health.. I have studied pshychology.... I do agree that in "the correct and trained" setting that LGAT techniques can be beneficial "when used with trained professionals" not with men who have taken a one or two day workshop in it......
Quote
Many, many men live a life of shadows. Wifes can be fine with this because they simply do not know what is going on. MKP encourages them to step from the shadows. For some relationships, this could have a very negative impact as the falsehood of the relationship is exposed. Perhaps it's better that we don't know about these shadows and bury our collective heads in the sand at home?
Actually, I have felt for a long time that I had a fairly good relationship with my husband, I have felt that HE was my best friend.........
Quote
Ginah, if he directly made a promise to you personally to not keep *any* secrets from you, I understand why you're pissed. He never should have gone to MKP - or ever signed a confidentiality agreement. He is out of integrity either way, in that case... Catch-22.
The promise was not necessarily *any* secrets. I know people keep things to themselves and I see nothing wrong with that in general. HE came to me upset that I had said something to a girlfriend, we talked, and he requested that "our issues be kept between us" I have kept that promise. And as I stated before, that the agreement we "thought" he was signing was to keep what other men told them about themselves to himself. I guess I feel that we were not given "valid" information "upfront"... And you are correct, that *pisses me off*
Quote
If you're speaking of marriage vows, I do not see how non-disclosure of a weekend violates those vows.
No, I was not speaking of just our marriage vows, but a promise we made to each other about five years ago.....
Quote
Do you have that form? I was never given anything like it or asked to contribute or pledge anything other than pay for I-group.
No, I do not have that form. My husband does. I figure he will do with it as he wants at this point no matter my point of view....
Quote
I see your reasoning (children needing new pants) as justification for a your position that is excusive and unnecessary. If your kids need new pants, your husband shouldn't be spending $600 on MKP period.
We "thought" this was something that would help him with his grief over his dad's death and following depression. We felt that something positive for him was worth the money......
Quote
Provide links to public records, please.
www.guidestar.org have fun, these are public records, I was able to sign in and find what I was looking for, but it is hard as they use different names for different areas. Luckily, in some places, they use aka mankind project.
Quote
Understand that non-profits that operate in states may require registration in that state, resulting in multiple registrations. I agree that MKP does own some businesses directly.
You won't find evidence of non-payment of taxes in public records. Non-profits are non-profit.. If they show a profit, they can lose their 501c3 status. Board members that get paid have to report the income.
As I said before, some of this is confusing to me and I am still having a hard time following what I am finding......on their forms they are not stating what they are making as "income" but as "compensation"...
Quote
Secrecy can be accomplished through confidentiality.
I do not know the reasoning why MKP chooses to exclude the family from the process. My personal theory (layperson) is that men and women have different barriers in terms of society and the way they deal with subconscious, hide things differently, and bring up shame. Breaking through those barriers *could* be a different process for men and women, generally speaking.
I agree with that, men and women process information differently. That does not mean that a group that claims to be beneficial to men and their families cannot have "some" form of information that they give to the spouse, I feel that the way they are handling this is out of "integrity".
Quote
There is nothing that prevents your husband from expressing how he feels after his weekend. You mentioned yourself that he talked about how he felt. There is no reason why he couldn't share his joy (or other feelings) with you, no reason why he can't discuss the things he discovered about himself. He just can't talk about the process that brought him to that discovery.
Sorry, I have to disagree, some marriages are that way, some marriages the couple pretty much live separate lives and don't really care much about what their spouse has going on in their lives. I believe that what my husband asked of me many years ago preceeds this MKP "oath". I also feel that the way he questions me about what I do at times, is the same way I questioned him, I always answer as truthfully as possible and desire the same from him.
Quote
LGAT is not an excuse and it's not a waver.
Maybe you should do some more research into LGAT and what it can do to a person's psyche
Quote
If he cheated on you after a weekend of LGAT, would he get a pass? I doubt it... The rules still apply.
I guess I don't get that comment, as far as I am concerned I trust him in this area. Though, if I "assume" you meant that under LGAT techniques he "did" cheat, then most likely I would forgive him as I know that these techniques can "screw" with people's minds.
Quote
No, if circumstances outside your control influence your ability to keep your word and make it physically impossible for you to keep your word, then I wouldn't call you out of integrity. I would call you out of integrity if the you had to make a CHOICE in regard to doing what you said you were going to do or not.
Agreed
Quote
Signing non-disclosure and then ignoring my agreement is something that I CHOOSE to do with free will.
hhmm, not sure what to say here again, other than to state "again", that we thought he was agreeing to not disclose anything other men might tell him. Which I thought was reasonable.
Quote
Surely you've dealt with people in your life that always have a story or an excuse about why they didn't do what they said they were going to do. From my experience, many of these people *believe* their own excuses and from their perspectives can't see a thing wrong with doing what they are doing. Over time, they'll lose credibility because they have no integrity - just a laundry list of excuses and no personal accountablity.
Of course, who has not?
Quote
ginah
No, it just means things happen. But, if a husband makes a promise to a wife, and then makes a different promise to someone else, who should he keep his "integrity" with?
Quote
Your husband was out of integrity by making that 2nd promise. I thought you were speaking of marriage vows in an earlier post and I saw no problems with non-disclosure of the MKP weekend and those vows. If your husband promised to disclose everything to you and STILL signed away that he would not disclose the details of the weekend, he IS out of integrity. What should he do now? I really don't know.
No, I do not feel he was out of "integrity", because, again, we THOUGHT he was agreeing to keep what he might find out about other men to himself, which, again, I was in agreement with!!!!!!!!!!
Quote
No. MKP is not forcing men to do anything. The MKP was something that your husband CHOOSE to do. Your husband made that choice.
Yes, he made this choice, though, I feel as depressed as he was, he definitely would not have made the same choice before the depression set in...... Dealing with the grief of a loved one dying, and then the hope of "a light at the end of the tunnel", well, free choice........
Quote
Lets have our own accountablity here:
You [b:0cb2446934]know[/b:0cb2446934] or [b:0cb2446934]you THINK[/b:0cb2446934]?
Perhaps taking things away from men that they use for recognition in society might make those men feel disarmed and naked?
I'm not affirming or denying your opinon, but lets state it as what it is: an opinion.
You are correct on this one, it is my opinion, but, an opinion of research and knowledge as to why something like this might be done. I also agree that under the "right" circumstances with "trained professionals" this could be beneficial for a person...
Quote
You're making suppositions about a procedure which you did not attend and seeking advice about that group on a "cult education forum". What kind of perspective do you think you're going to get here? Do you expect any sort of balance in perspective? Have you actually talked to any people that have gone through MKP and found it helpful (yes, I'm assuming they exist). Perhaps one of their spouses found the experience to be a positive thing for that union, if indirectly? Nah.. impossible.. Couldn't happen.
Yes, I am talking to those who "hate" it, and to those who "love" it. How else do you come up with an opinion that has any "truth"? I figure somewhere in the middle of everything I will find "some" truth. Can you agree that for some that this group is detrimental to (most importantly) themselves, and secondly their relationships???? No, I did not attend the weekend, but I read the manual and understand the procedures that they followed.... Also, their is a reason that MKP has a forum in regards to this group being a "cult, lgat". Go to International Cultic Studies Association www.culticstudies.org their site is kind of hard to follow, but you will eventually find Mankind Project listed under "cult" under "lgat". Also, in my state, The Department of Regulatory Agency's warned me away from this group..........
QuoteQuote
ginah
If MKPers can't be honest with this one, how can I trust them with more important issues? Another lie from MKP?? Or just an unwillingness to admit why they do so, how are they keeping their integrity with this one????>
Ginah, I'm not admitting it because I don't know it to be true.
I'm not denying it because I don't know it to be false.
You're asking questions about things that may reveal information about he process, as such you may not get the answers you want. They *may* be keeping their integrity by not revealing information about the process.
I am not sure about this, I will have to think on it, I know I do not agree that they are keeping their "integrity" by keeping information "hidden", "secret", "whatever".
Quote
I agree that your husbands life will impact yours. Such is a reasonable and sane assumption. The focus on the weekend is somewhat selfish (IMHO) - it's designed to help that man. There may be relationship repercussions, especially if that man lived a life of secrecy and shadow.
Agreed
Quote
Let's clear this up. What *exactly* was the promise he made to you. I've assumed above that he promised to never keep *any* secrets from you.
I believe I answered this above but will add further clarification to my previous statement, what goes on in our relationship, stays in our relationship, whatever we do/say that will have impact on our relationship, and on our relationship with others, we will disclose to each other. We are/will work towards, being our best friends.
Quote
Ethically speaking, I see nothing wrong with denying men access to some of their "things". I've already said that if I felt there was a health risk, I'd speak up about it... It's much to-do over nothing and a bit "whiney", IMHO.
Sorry for being "whiney", my opinion on this was, we are being told these things are taken away for "safety", when IN MY OPINION, that is a bullshit answer.
Quote
America needs a little self deprivation every once and a while... This opinion has *nothing* to do with anything I've learned at MKP. Do you give your kids everything they want? Do you expect to get everything you want as an adult? Taking away certain items forces introspection and *could* possibly free men from outside distraction.
Again, WITH THE RIGHT TRAINED PROFESSIONALS, YES, THIS COULD CREATE AN ENVIRONMENT OF INTROSPECTION, BUT NOT WITH A GROUP OF MEN WHO [b:0cb2446934]MIGHT[/b:0cb2446934] HAVE GONE TO A TWO DAY TRAINING IN THE PROCESS.
Quote
I thought about it before I signed. If I needed to disclose things that I saw and did that weekend, I'd feel that I need to be explicit about that up front. Some men will refuse to sign that document sighting "illegal activites" or the like, that would be fine. Nothing illegal goes on.
I believe I have answered this one several times from my point of view.
Quote
Tell you what, Ginah, I hold in my hands a blank private contract between you and me. I'm not going to let you read it. Please sign it for me. Question: Are you going to cry about what happens when you sign that contract or are you going to refuse to sign it? It's your choice. You have free will.
I would [u:0cb2446934][i:0cb2446934][b:0cb2446934]not [/b:0cb2446934][/i:0cb2446934][/u:0cb2446934]sign the contract, and again I believe I have stated what we "THOUGHT" my husband was signing.... This is where this group "again" does not follow through on their "integrity".
QuoteQuote
ginah
Then you are made to give an "oath" of secrecy after an intense weekend of LGAT, how are you then required to keep it???
I wasn't MADE to give anything. I choose to sign my right to disclosure away. I was not under duress. No one held a gun to my head.
I understand LGAT, I understand that after you would very willingly choose to sign anything "under your own free will".
QuoteQuote
ginah
When the police arrest the "wrong" guy, keep him awake for hours pounding on him/her emotionally, and then the person finally says "I did it", are they then required to continue saying they did it??? LGAT is the same thing....>
LGAT may be a form of duress, I wouldn't argue with that.
The non-disclosure is signed before *any* LGAT happens. There is no duress and men are free to not sign, and not attend.
You say the same thing, we were not given full disclosure of what my husband was signing..........
Quote
I'll give you a pass on my question.
Which question and I will do MY best to answer...
QuoteQuote
ginah
<I understand that my husband went through LGAT, I understand that my husband made a promise to me a very long time ago. I did not "demand" answers, I just asked, and was put off because of an "oath" of secrecy he gave to his new "brothers" after a PROMISE he had made to me. ALARM BELLS STARTED RINGING, would they not for you in regards to someone you love?>
Note I do not give you husband any sort of behavioral, ethical, or moral pass in regard to not telling you about the weekend if he agreed to do so in advance. I will call him out of integrity by going on that weekend and signing non-disclosure if he KNEW he had made a conflicting agreement with you in the past. I do not think that his word to MKP means any more that his word to you, if he promised to disclose everything.
I'd be curious to know this:
[b:0cb2446934]Did your husband understand that he would not be telling you about the weekend, in direct conflict to the promise he made to you years ago?[/b:0cb2446934] You seem pretty firm on it... I'd just check to see if he understands it the same way.
Again, I do not think either one of us realized "what he was allowed" to discuss and we both thought it had to do with what other men might tell him about themselves. NO, he [u:0cb2446934]did not [/u:0cb2446934]understand that he would not be telling me about the weekend. I do not see my husband as being "out of integrity" when he shows concern and understanding of my feelings and feels more of a responsibility of honesty "not quite the word I am looking for but close enough" towards me than to MKP......
Quote
ginah
<Actually they use a form of Jungian Psychology which is dangerous when not used by trained (professionals), it is still a field of study not quite understood and for people to use it without correct training is just plain uncaring and as far as I am concerned "stupid".>
I am not trained in Jungian Psychology, but have training at university in psychology, and have done much reading in the last few weeks.
Quote
1) Do you think that MKP could possibly be helpful to some men?
2) If the MKP procedure is so dangerous, why is it recommended by some professional therapist and members of the clergy?
3) Is there *any* possible benefit to this weekend, what-so-ever?
1. Yes, I can see where MKP could possibly be helpful to some men, my worry is THEY DON'T HAVE CORRECT TRAINING. THEY COULD CAUSE MORE HARM THAN GOOD.... So, let's say they help many people, but harm many others, should they continue? Or try to change how they do things a bit?
2. I do not know how to answer that question, maybe they have not enough information. Maybe they think that the person they are sending would be benefited by this group. H*ll, maybe they are brainwashed, I don't know...... Why is it that I have known members of the clergy to preach what not to do, and then I find them doing it??? This just shows, research and get to know, before you leap...
3. Of course, I never said it could not be beneficial. If you read one of my previous post you will see where I state many positives that I have seen in my husband. Do you agree that with the techniques this goup uses, they may cause more harm than good for many men???
QuoteNo.You miss my point. If you've asked him not to disclose, but expect him to violate that agreement with others, isn't that a double standard?Quote
ginah
<Ah, see, so now, every word I say, I have to think about, is this something he might disclose?
No, I do not "expect" him to disclose, actually I trust him with that, it is the fact that now, I have to continually think about what I say to him, when for years I have not.... And to be completely honest, that hurts me... It is the fact, that I know if a person is in a state of distress, they "might" accidently say something they should not without meaning to....
.Quote
Instead of being angry, why don't you ask your husband if he's talked about issue X? It doesn't disclose the procedure. There is no reason why you can't have a heartfelt conversation with him.. You just can't ask him about what he "did" that weekend in terms of procedure
This is something we have discussed, again, it is an issue of, now I have to watch what I say to my love...... and think, well, is this something I need to ask him not to disclose? Would it bother me? If so, why? Is it really an issue? etc. etc. etc. Do you see where that can be painful to someone who her best friend, is now someone she has to watch what she talks about with?
Quote
I agree (my opinion also) that MKP does use LGAT.
Your claim that MPK "forces" a man to give an oath of secrecy is false. I understand you are angry, but that agreement is signed up front. Yes, without full knowlege of the weekend, but it's signed in good faith and of free will.
Yes, usually free will of men who are vulnerable. And the "upfront" part I have answered enough times.
QuoteI never said that integrity requires secrecy. It just requires that your husband do what he said he was going to do. If he said two conflicting things, he's out of integrity one way or the other.Quote
ginah
I know what integrity is, I have kept it in my relationship with my husband and life for a very long time, it does not require "secrecy", which is different from confidentiality of what a person tells you about themselves.>
Sure, make him someone "out of integrity" because we misunderstood what he signed and the fact that he was depressed.
Quote
Let me ask you bluntly, then... In plain english, rather than allowing you to promote that association based on your logic above:
[b:0cb2446934]Do you believe that MKP is a cult?[/b:0cb2446934]
Yes
Quote
If so, there are people that will support your opinon.
Quote
If you believe that going through an MKP weekend is a mortal sin, there are people that will support that opinion also.
I do not believe the weekend and what they do to be a "mortal sin", I believe the secrecy, the techniques they use with untrained professionals, is the "sin".... What is right for me may be wrong for you, what is right for you may be wrong for me, neither way is "wrong" in and of itself, it is how it effects the person.
Quote
If you believe that MKP promotes homosexuality, there are people that will support that opinion also.
That is not an issue for me. As I stated, my way may not be yours, and your way may not be mine. Neither way is wrong. Everyone has their own path they "need" to follow in this world.....
MKP would cause themselves less problems if they were upfront about what they do, and how they do it. If a Christian man (or any religion) is not aware of the fact that this group uses "pagan" ceramonies, how is that holding to "integrity" and how is that beneficial to his mental state? Again, here is where I feel "a lie of admission" is in play.
Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.