Wow. When I ? my husband about why they had to be naked he said because that's just part of course. I asked why is that. Got a lot of non answere answers there. Other than from the informed opinion that the naked part is just to tear their old selves down and break them down, I just can't see any real reason. He told me it was because native indians were naked. humph!

ginah,
Post your questions up in an manner in which they can be answered, without swearing at all of us, and I'll try to answer them from my perspective. If you number them, I'll try and go through them with quotes, so they are easy to read.

I simply can't follow your post above.. I can't tell what is a question and what is a demand.

Please see my post above, I concur that you cannot have a fabricated opinion - that was a mistake on my part. Again, if you were presenting a fact, I believe it is a fabrication, but I certainly respect your OPINION. You didn't voice it as an opinion, however..

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ginah
If so are you "man" enough to answer and comment on my following statements? Do you have the "Guts"? ..............

That's a bit baiting, don't you think.
I don't follow your questions exactly, but I'll do my best to parse them and provide answers to them here.

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ginah
I think is takes a more of a man to share these personal things with your wife and a coward to keep them secret!

I agree that it does take some fortitude to share personal things with your spouse. I also believe that we all have a secret or two, even if subconscious. I don't believe that anything less than 100% full disclosure makes anyone a coward. There are things that have happened in my past, in all our pasts, which are not constructively shared in a relationship.



<snip your experience w/husband @ not answering your questions>
He signed a confidentiality agreement. Regardless of your (or my) personal beliefs on what we should or shouldn't share with our spouse, he signed that agreement in good faith. If he didn't believe in keeping the agreement, he shouldn't sign it.

What started my worries was the fact that my husband drove our new "used" car about 300 miles to get to where the meetings were. He promised to call me when he got there to let me know that the vehicle made it there safely. He left on a Friday noon, he never called, I didn't know anything until he got home about 2am on Sunday night.

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ginah
I started thinking, what kind of group that is supposed to be healthy for a family would do this to a family, make the men feel as if they have to keep "secrets" from their spouse?

Your husband could have called you on Friday to let you know he was there. That was his choice.
The lack of communication over the weekend was likely not his choice.
I cannot answer your question in regard to what kind of group suggests that it is healthy to keep secrets from family. All I can tell you is that your husband agreed to do so up front.

I do understand how your husbands lack of being forthcoming about weekend procedure might make you feel.

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ginah
And yes, I understand that sometimes, men need groups that they "hang" with, that they don't tell much to their spouse, I understand that, but not to every single question. What kind of "integrity" is that?

I'd say that your husband was doing what he said he was going to do when he signed that agreement. I'd guess (based on your comments) that he was doing so at some personal cost. I would judge him to have high integrity personally... He signed a non-disclosure and did not disclose.

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ginah
Which is what he kept saying, I have to keep my integrity and not speak about this weekend. I was feeling as if I was being asked to "throw away" my integrity and allow this kind of "secret" into our 20 year relationship.

You were being asked to be understanding about not knowing the fine details about one weekend out of 20 years.

I'm sorry you felt like this secret impacted a 20 year relationship. The hills in our relationships are often what we make of them.

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ginah

I do have the understanding that some LGAT's can be beneficial, but, one with no info about them anywhere, no nonprofit listings, no business licenses, and the fact that they wanted my husband to "pledge" money's to them and give them money on a continual basis, I felt these people were playing with fire. Then I found this site, and, here I am. And my husband was "VERY" gungho about the weekend.
I also started calling my state agencies and realizing, they are not listed as a business, or non profit or or or, actually since this statement I have found many IRS forms in regards to MKP using seudo names to hide who they are. Seems to be a couple million that is going into someones pockets!!!!!!!

Factually speaking, what money did they as for on a continual basis?
Use factual examples. Not heresay.
I-group is low cost.
Like you, I have some question about where the initial fee goes to, but have no visibility to the answer. I can say that not everyone can be afford that fee and some of the money goes to pay the fees for men who cannot afford it. I have at least one friend I trust personally (before MKP) and the men staffing the weekend were not even marginally well paid.
Facilities cost money. There are expenses.
I can't tell you who makes a X dollars however.
I was *never* asked for "continual" funds of any form.

You said that there are a couple of million dollars going into someone's pockets. Please provide references for such a claim. Who is making a million dollars?

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ginah
I have issues with where the money is going, and with their secretiveness.

I have issues with where the money is going also, but it is a *private* organization. If there were non-profit there would be some disclosure rules. There may be someone at the top making very reasonable money - or there may not be. To be honest, I simply don't know. I don't think that you should suggest someone is making millions unless you have some solid facts to back that statement up.

Secretiveness is unfortunate from the perspective of a spouse. I don't necessarily agree with keeping secrets from the spouse, as it places many men in a very bad position.

Process secrecy, having gone through the process, I understand why it is required.

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ginah
I feel that they need to become more aware of how their action's can be "VERY PAINFUL" to some families and somehow start dealing with this other than telling the spouse to keep everything secret. Integrity seems to be a large part of this group and as far as I am concerned secretiveness has nothing whatsoever to do with integrity. I feel that part is wrong and that they are breaking their own "rules" in this regards.

I can understand how you might be hurt by your husband keeping these secrets from you. I'm glad you posted this, maybe there are some people in MKP who will read this and make adjustments. It's not fair to improve the lives of men at the expense of the emotional health of a spouse.

Again, I'd remind you: It's only one weekend. I respect and understand your feelings, but if you would try to understand from your husbands perspective that he gave his word, it might help.

Integrity is doing what you say you are going to do. Nothing more. Nothing less. Your husband said he would not talk about it, he's keeping his integrity.

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ginah
I do understand that I could be up against him having some ideas "that he was brainwashed" with. AND I AM TRYING TO PROCESS. This really F***ING sucks, having to fight my gut feeling with what my husband whom I have always trusted is telling me.

Am I brainwashed too?
If I say I will do something, I do it. Going back on my word at a later date because of certain conditions impacts my credibility.

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ginah
"And if a marriage is strong, I think it encourages growth and change and honesty. " When a man goes through a weekend of denial of food, sleep, wedding rings, phones, etc. and is put through an intense weekend of LGAT, and then told he has to give an "oath" of secrecy, how does that encourage honesty in a relationship?????????????????????

I'm not a therapist, so I can't make psychological comments on WHY the process works for some people, I'll leave that to earlier posters. I will say that it does seem to have a positive impact in the lives of some people. Professional therapists have recommeneded it. Clergy has recommended it. Not that such makes it 100% safe and effective for everyone, but I'm suggesting that *maybe* there is something to the process that might allow your husband to gain something out of it for his life, which could potentially benefit yours. I know some of the theory behind *why* the process works for some people, but I'd just be a lay person talking about theories I haven't studied. I'd encourage you to talk to other men who have gone through MKP. Don't ask about the "process" - ask about the impact to their lives and their relationships. The best knowledge is gained first hand.

The weekend isn't about "your" relationship. It's about your husband himself. If you're seeking something more family oriented, I think there are alternatives. I think that perhaps your relationship could benefit if you got past the hurt of the "secret" part, but you'll probably have to be willing to let that go.

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ginah
I see you breaking your own integrity with this one!!!!!!! Real men lie to their wives? Is that the truth of MKP ??????

I was never asked to lie to my spouse or anyone else.
If I tell you that I can't disclose because I agreed not to do so, I'm not lying.

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ginah
Yes, they are deprived, (I know this as FACT!!!!!!!!) sacred items such as wedding rings, reading materials, phones, sleep, food, etc. etc. etc. etc. and yes it is "secret", a "man" has to give an "oath" of secrecy!!!!!!!!!!

My job deprives me of sleep sometimes, as do my spouse, and sometimes my pets. Did MKP take those items away from your husband and not give them back? Deprived is relative. If MKP I thought that MKP was "depriving" men of needs in a way that was dangerous, I would violate my integrity and speak about it here. We Americans are so used to having our way with everything, would there really be something wrong with a smaller than usual meal or less than 8 hours sleep?

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ginah
Your statements:
"There is no mysterious 'secrecy'"
No? Would you tell us about Saturday night? Would you tell your wife about it? How about Sunday morning?

I didn't make that statement.
I would not agree with that statement.
At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I can say that I would not tell my spouse about anything that weekend as I agreed not to do so up front and of my own free will. If I would have disclosed that information, I would not have agreed to the process.

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ginah
"There are a bunch of good reasons for the confidentiality" -- yes, imagine your wife's face if you told her all that went on!

Imagine telling another man about what went on. I think you have a valid point, but I believe that such is not the only reason to keep the weekend a private procedure.

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ginah
So, within this men's group, integrity, honesty, guilt/shame is talked about and how a "man" should keep his integrity and honesty and not do anything that would cause him guilt/shame and if he does he should talk about it and "feel" it. So, if what happened is something you would not tell your wife about, is that not a form of guilt/shame as to what went on???

Are you objecting the the theory that a man should live his life in an honest way, with integrity, and keep from doing things that cause shame and guilt?

To answer your question, the man should not be doing things that he would not want to tell his spouse. He made certain promises to you also that he should be held accountable for.

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ginah
If it was something that you are "embaressed" about, or know it is something that would be painfull to a person you are supposed to love and respect, do you really think that is something "normal" and "healthy" for youself and your relationship? I just keep seeing in so many places where this group talks about all kinds of what I would think of as "good, healthy" action's, and then do the opposite of all they are spouting.

I agree that placing men in a position where their spouse absolutely demands to know what happened over the weekend, refuses to accept the idea that that said man might have given his word not to disclose what happened might cause issues at home. From my perspective, since you've done so much investigation into the "process" and you *understand* that your husband gave his word, I'm going to suggest that you might be a little more understanding in regard to your husband's position.

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ginah
I would like for someone who is or have been in MKP to answer some of the statements that I have made on this site!!!!!!! Read my posts!!!!!!!!!!! None of you seem inclined to answer truthfully. What about your "integrity" how is keeping secrets from your spouse considered "integrity, and honesty?"

I've been through it.
I do not make MKP policy.
Again, I think you don't understand the definition of integrity. Your husband was doing what he said he was going to do.. Not give you the details. He's not being dishonest by doing so.

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ginah
How is talking to a group of people that have no training in counseling and have no legal responsibility of confidentiality suposed to be "trust worthy"?

I think you have a valid concern here. In one form or another MKP practices a form of therapy by people who are not traditionally trained in it. I think the fact that *some* therapist perscribe to the weekend and the fact that there have been personal positive results tends to offset the risk somewhat. I do not see it as a risk-free activity.

There is no legal responsibility because most people there on the weekend volunteeer. Even HOA boards are indemnified, otherwise no one would volunteer in the litigious USA.

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ginah
How is a wife, then supposed to feel confident in speaking with her spouse about things and trust that he will keep those issues within their relationship and not with a bunch of "hoo haa men?"

I can't guarantee that he won't confide in people that he trusts in regard to issues within your relationship. Do you ever talk about issues within your relationship to a girlfriend?

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ginah
How is a wife supposed to keep her ability to trust her spouse to keep her "secrets" within their relationship?

If your man isn't telling you about his weekend, why would you think that he would disclose things you've asked him not to talk about - or things that he knows he shouldn't talk about. If you don't think he would know the difference, simply ask him - or tell him: please do not disclose.

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ginah
You guys seem to have no "real" integrity and honesty within this issue.......... Read my previous posts god damnit, all of them.... and answer!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'd like to suggest that you are a bit angry. Getting angry isn't going to help you here - or at home.
Do you understand what integrity is?

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ginah
You state... The people calling this a "cult" don't want to talk about that...
MKP is listed under a government site as being a "watched" LGAT.....LGAT is under the heading "cult" and "watched" because of concern as to how they are doing things and treating people and the amount of money's required and their recruiting techniques.

I do not believe MKP is a cult.
I think MKP might fit the mold as LGAT. I wouldn't object to that characterization. By saying making the association of cult and LGAT, I believe you are trying to characterize MKP as a cult, which is something you have no direct experience with as you didn't attend the weekend.


<SNIP LGAT information, it's easily found>


I hope this answers your questions. I'm willing to discuss, if you can do so in a rational way without cursing or dropping to personal insults.

Obviously no one "MAN" enough, or with enough "INTEGRITY" to answer my questions. What a "SHAMEFUL" and "GUILTY" reaction to my questioning.

IMO, the secretive nature of this organization is going to undermine any relationship. It's like my man can't even have a discussion anymore.

Before he got involved I thought we had a very open relationship. We discussed anything and everything. Now it seems I can't say anything without him trying to turn it into some big deal. Every little thing becomes an issue and he can never give me real answers about anything, just the vague crap. It makes if very hard to be supportive and positive.

i don't know if I'll ever be able to be intimate with him ever again. Do otherwomen feel this way?

<If so are you "man" enough to answer and comment on my following statements? Do you have the "Guts"? ..............>

That's a bit baiting, don't you think.

<Of course, I was trying to bait someone into answering my questions. You never answered the one about a man (and spouse) not knowing anything about what the weekend is about, being put through an intense weekend of LGAT, and then being told he has to make an "oath" of secrecy. How is that integrity on the part of MKP??????? These men are broken, and then pushed into giving an "oath" that just might go against a previous one given to his spouse............ How does that fit????>

<To make a relationship stronger, and to understand where your loved one is coming from, disclosure IS the best way to go. Don't you think that your (if you have one) spouse "might" be more understanding and caring of some of your behaviors, reactions, actions, if she/he knows where you are coming from????>

He signed a confidentiality agreement.

<Not knowing what he was signing in regards to!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and then AFTER AN INTENSE WEEKEND OF LGAT. Before he went he had no idea what he was signing in regards to. Our thought was as to what other men might tell him about themselves which I COMPLETELY agree should be kept in confidence.>

Your husband could have called you on Friday to let you know he was there. That was his choice.

<No, from what he told me (after I found the info on the internet) that was not his choice, the way they were immediately treated and his phone etc. taken away??????? Yes, sure, he could have called while being screamed at????>

I'd say that your husband was doing what he said he was going to do when he signed that agreement. I'd guess (based on your comments) that he was doing so at some personal cost. I would judge him to have high integrity personally... He signed a non-disclosure and did not disclose.

<Yes, my husband has very high "integrity", but, after the weekend of LGAT, it tore him up, a promise he made to me years ago, a promise he made to his new "brothers" after LGAT, oh yes, healthy healthy healthy.>

You were being asked to be understanding about not knowing the fine details about one weekend out of 20 years.

<I was being asked to, what felt like to me, throw my "integrity" of honesty about our relationship (after a promise we had made to each other years ago), and now allow secrets into our relationsip.>

Factually speaking, what money did they as for on a continual basis?
Use factual examples. Not heresay.

<He was given a form to Pledge a certain amount over a time frame.... I refused to allow this since we are NOT RICH and our children could better use new pants than MPK!!!!!!!!!!!>

You said that there are a couple of million dollars going into someone's pockets. Please provide references for such a claim. Who is making a million dollars?

<IRS forms that are public records that I found...... many different names for different states, slipping through having to pay taxes, I am still trying to trace where the money is going, many many many businesses owned by MKP "persons" which MKP then pays to have "websites" etc. etc. etc. created. Money going from their left pocket to their right pocket!!!!>

I have issues with where the money is going also, but it is a *private* organization. If there were non-profit there would be some disclosure rules.

<If you go to their web site they claim to be "NON PROFIT"!!!!!!!!!!!!!>

I don't think that you should suggest someone is making millions unless you have some solid facts to back that statement up.

<I believe the IRS forms with MKPers names point in that direction.......>

Process secrecy, having gone through the process, I understand why it is required.

<No, secrecy is different from confidentiality of what others tell you. I see no reason why my husband should not be allowed to share what should be his newfound truth and joy of himself with his wife and how he was able to do so if it was actually healthy for him, obviously I am not going to go to a mens mkp weekend............>

Integrity is doing what you say you are going to do. Nothing more. Nothing less. Your husband said he would not talk about it, he's keeping his integrity.

<After an INTENSE WEEKEND OF LGAT>

Am I brainwashed too?
If I say I will do something, I do it. Going back on my word at a later date because of certain conditions impacts my credibility.

<I would say you sound brainwashed. Sometimes life throws things at us and we have to do something different than what we said, does that mean you are breaking your integrity "word"? Or just that life changes what we have to do at times? So, I tell my kids, tomorrow we are going to the park, the car breaks down and we can't go, does that mean I am losing my integrity? Or, I say I will be somewhere at a certain time, I leave in plenty of time and whoa, a car accident that makes me late. Do I lose my credibility? No, it just means things happen. But, if a husband makes a promise to a wife, and then makes a different promise to someone else, who should he keep his "integrity" with? MKP is forcing men to make a choice that "IS NOT" healthy for them and their family.>

<I know why "sacred" items are taken away, are you going to tell me it is a safety issue as I keep hearing from my husband's I group? I [b:68eae55f46]know[/b:68eae55f46] it is to "remove" them from their "lives" and start "breaking" them down. If MKPers can't be honest with this one, how can I trust them with more important issues? Another lie from MKP?? Or just an unwillingness to admit why they do so, how are they keeping their integrity with this one????>

The weekend isn't about "your" relationship. It's about your husband himself.

<I am aware that the weekend was not about me or about the relationship between my husband and I. My responce to that is, anything I do in this life, and anything my husband does in this life, impacts our relationship. If I have made a promise to him, I will keep it, not change it just because a bunch of LGAT MKPers tell me to.>

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ginah
I see you breaking your own integrity with this one!!!!!!! Real men lie to their wives? Is that the truth of MKP ??????

I was never asked to lie to my spouse or anyone else.
If I tell you that I can't disclose because I agreed not to do so, I'm not lying.

<You are if you had previously made a promise to your wife, and as far as I am concerned, it is a lie of admission.............>

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ginah
Yes, they are deprived, (I know this as FACT!!!!!!!!) sacred items such as wedding rings, reading materials, phones, sleep, food, etc. etc. etc. etc. and yes it is "secret", a "man" has to give an "oath" of secrecy!!!!!!!!!!

<Your answer was just the answer I expected from an MKPer. Yes, life deprives us of all kinds of things that we don't choose. Does that mean it is right?>

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ginah
Your statements:
"There is no mysterious 'secrecy'"
No? Would you tell us about Saturday night? Would you tell your wife about it? How about Sunday morning?

I didn't make that statement.
I would not agree with that statement.
At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I can say that I would not tell my spouse about anything that weekend as I agreed not to do so up front and of my own free will. If I would have disclosed that information, I would not have agreed to the process.

<That was not an answer, that was a "broken record" statement of someone not thinking......... If you don't know what is going to happen, but believe that you are being asked to not disclose any information about what other men might tell you, how are you agreeing to anything "upfront" other than to keep what other's might tell you in confidence to yourself? Then you are made to give an "oath" of secrecy after an intense weekend of LGAT, how are you then required to keep it??? When the police arrest the "wrong" guy, keep him awake for hours pounding on him/her emotionally, and then the person finally says "I did it", are they then required to continue saying they did it??? LGAT is the same thing....>

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ginah
"There are a bunch of good reasons for the confidentiality" -- yes, imagine your wife's face if you told her all that went on!

Imagine telling another man about what went on. I think you have a valid point, but I believe that such is not the only reason to keep the weekend a private procedure.

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ginah
So, within this men's group, integrity, honesty, guilt/shame is talked about and how a "man" should keep his integrity and honesty and not do anything that would cause him guilt/shame and if he does he should talk about it and "feel" it. So, if what happened is something you would not tell your wife about, is that not a form of guilt/shame as to what went on???

Are you objecting the the theory that a man should live his life in an honest way, with integrity, and keep from doing things that cause shame and guilt?

<No, did you not read what I wrote? Are you bouncing around the real question? So, if what happened is something you would not tell your wife about, is that not a form of guilt/shame as to what went on???>

I agree that placing men in a position where their spouse absolutely demands to know what happened over the weekend, refuses to accept the idea that that said man might have given his word not to disclose what happened might cause issues at home. From my perspective, since you've done so much investigation into the "process" and you *understand* that your husband gave his word, I'm going to suggest that you might be a little more understanding in regard to your husband's position.

<I understand that my husband went through LGAT, I understand that my husband made a promise to me a very long time ago. I did not "demand" answers, I just asked, and was put off because of an "oath" of secrecy he gave to his new "brothers" after a PROMISE he had made to me. ALARM BELLS STARTED RINGING, would they not for you in regards to someone you love?>

I think you have a valid concern here. In one form or another MKP practices a form of therapy by people who are not traditionally trained in it.

<Actually they use a form of Jungian Psychology which is dangerous when not used by trained (professionals), it is still a field of study not quite understood and for people to use it without correct training is just plain uncaring and as far as I am concerned and "stupid".>

Do you ever talk about issues within your relationship to a girlfriend?

<No, because I made a promise to him years ago that I would NOT and that our issues were ours and not anyone else's.... HIS REQUEST OF ME A LONG TIME AGO...... which I have kept!!!!!!!!!!!! Our promise to each other...>

If your man isn't telling you about his weekend, why would you think that he would disclose things you've asked him not to talk about - or things that he knows he shouldn't talk about. If you don't think he would know the difference, simply ask him - or tell him: please do not disclose.

<Ah, see, so now, every word I say, I have to think about, is this something he might disclose? Is this something I have to request him not to disclose? Is this something that would bother me if he did? So now I can't just have a heartfelt conversation with him without wondering. I cannot just be comfortable with my husband as I alway's have been?...Yes, that makes me angry!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1>

I'd like to suggest that you are a bit angry. Getting angry isn't going to help you here - or at home.
Do you understand what integrity is?

<Yes I am angry, this group uses LGAT with untrained people (where is the integrity in that?), and then forces a man to give an oath of secrecy, and it is supposed to be acceptable. I know what integrity is, I have kept it in my relationship with my husband and life for a very long time, it does not require "secrecy", which is different from confidentiality of what a person tells you about themselves.>

I do not believe MKP is a cult.
I think MKP might fit the mold as LGAT. I wouldn't object to that characterization. By saying making the association of cult and LGAT, I believe you are trying to characterize MKP as a cult, which is something you have no direct experience with as you didn't attend the weekend.

<No, I did not attend the weekend, but I am not stupid and have done much research, called many govt. agencies, asked many questions, Mankind Project is under watch, listed as an LGAT under the term CULT..>

<I have tried to reread this in the hope that things were not written over and over, as when I looked at one of my last post it seemed to copy twice.

Thank You for at least trying to answer some of my questions. I think you might need to do some research on this group you are so much trying to defend.>

i don't know if I'll ever be able to be intimate with him ever again. Do otherwomen feel this way?[/quote]

I wonder about our conversations, will he disclose what I say to him? Will he keep my confidence? Oh crap, do I have to request that he not talk about this????? I feel no longer able to just talk with him without this worry in the back of my mind, is this something that would bother me if he disclosed it???

I am sorry that this has become an issue for you in your life, like this world does not send us enough. I send you my best wishes....

Why did you kick RU?ing off again? People seem to miss him here, I keep getting emails to forward to him? Seemed he new his stuff, and was maybe to honest? Did the organization threaten the Rick?
I think he was one of the best debtors on this site! I hope he will let me know if he joins another, such a bummer!

CB your posting to ginah!

First of all, I don't care what kind of paper her husband signed, he also signed one the day ginah married him, and that is most important,..... not to mention, the papers he signed
with the MKP mean nothing!!

And if she did tell here girlfriends things, it would be just that a (Friend) probably one of many years, and not some one she just met at a weekend, .... trying to get her to tell intimate things about her self.......
hello, like the guys from the MKP are going to hang out with you when you leave! NOT! Maybe these guys should just go have a drink with their buddy's!
Plus her girlfriend will not charge her!

And Ginahs husband loyalty and trust belong to her! How dare you try to take that! Or the MKP try to take that!

Unfortunately I would have to say that the reason
that most the guys don't talk about their weekend is because they are ashamed! That they did some of the thing that they did!
And are afraid that in their wife's eyes, they will look like less of a man, and guess what after we find out just part of it, then they do appeal as less of a man! Regardless of what you think!