Was the last week of school for my little guy, crazy! now, exhale! lol
How are you and every body here doing? I have avoided my desk for about 3 weeks, talk about denial! UHG!
Chow for now, Ivy

Just bumping this long thread for some of the new people to be able to read.

Sorry about any repeat, but I didn't see the post on the discussion board--plus, I wanted to add a few other points. Thanks.

Hi, all. Thanks so much for all of your postings--pro, con, and in between. I helps me to sort our my own concerns with this group to read a more balanced discussion than found on the MKP-sponsored sites and from what it sounds like is happening on the Yahoo group (according to CB). Like Ginah and What2do, I, too, had a visceral, "gut" reaction to this group from my first conversations about it once my husband returned from his initiation and shared much of his weekend (despite the signing the confidentiality form--after all, he didn't have informed consent when he signed it, and unfortunately signed it anyway, as he trusted the close family member that sold the benefits of MKP to him). Further, like Ivy, I am also indigenous (Cherokee) and share her concerns about the appropriation (aka colonization) of Native American spirituality. I am tired of New Age commodification, consumption, and fetishism of our cultures--not to mention how MKP recapitulates a monolithic treatment of "the American Indian" culture instead of actually getting permission from the tribes it is "borrowing from" to use these traditions and properly educating its members about the rich, varied, and distinct traditions of the variety of tribes from which it draws upon. IMO, not only is the MKP "without" integrity when it employs a patched together notion of indigenous spirituality without its original contexts (plural) and without consent, but to make profit from the use of these traditions, which only further colonizes indigenous people. Furthermore, integrity requires honesty, and the secrecy of the weekend does not reflect integrity, as lies of omission are still lies. (Maybe CB could explain why it is that secret processes are required for the weekend to be successful. Could trained & licensed therapists get away with such secrecy with their clients? Do they ask their clients to keep their therapy secret? Do you think that this honesty with clients affects their therapeutic process and progress?)

My husband trusted our 15 year relationship enough to tell me about his experience of the weekend without betraying the trust of any of his new found "brothers"--as he didn't share the experiences of others. But he did share the many of the processes he encountered, and they are along the lines of what we have read so far on this forum. Same schedule, same abuse of power with regards to the denial of protein for proper brain functioning (only fruit and granola) and thus logical reasoning. He, too, was pressured to carpool with a complete stranger (instead of his family member staffing the event) and got naked for one of the events. He did say, though, that he made his own decision to leave the sweat lodge and to stay in his underwear for one of the naked events.

He ended up getting seriously ill soon after the weekend, and almost had to be hospitalized (I suspect due to the malnutrition that weekend). Although I understand other factors could have led to this outcome, I certainly do not think that the lack of protein and sleep helped his health. However, although he shared some of these initial concerns with me soon after the weekend (as well as the stripping of his "identity" items and the questions of where the money goes), he is actually considering staffing a weekend--in part due to the urging of the family member who has staffed several weekends. I am concerned by this continued involvement without having many of our shared concerns answered, not to mention that he has a psychology/therapy background (with an advanced degree) and agrees that untrained individuals should not be using such Jungian and Gestalt therapy--especially by a group who cannot claim to have therapeutic value, rather educational, for legal reasons. Like RU (whose insight and sound logic I miss quite a bit, BTW), I have a linguistic background (with advanced degree) and am concerned by the slippery rhetoric the MKP uses to recruit and "educate." I have to say that it is rather masterful in persuasion for those not attuned to recognizing faulty logic.

My hubby claims that his desire to staff is part sustained by his aim of getting more of his questions answered and to possibly safeguard the initiates from incurring any damages, but I am concerned that one person cannot make that big of a difference and might he get sucked in further. Further, I am hesitant to further support the MKP financially, as there is a fee to staff, as it signifies a financial commitment that we are not really in the position to make, it signifies an ethical alignment to their doctrine, and more importantly, it is IMO giving them more fuel for their misguided training. I guess I can agree that the training may prove to be helpful for some, but it can be seriously damaging to others--not to mention that Indians and our cultures continue to be damaged by this thievery of our customs. And where is the after care? Even my husband, a trained and licensed professional, suggests that this is very dangerous to those who are with compromised emotional conditions--which make up the bulk of those recruits sent to the weekends by their therapists, priests, etc.

So, dear group, what are your thoughts on my concerns? Should I support his desire to go and check it out further, or should he wait until he gets his questions answered BEFORE staffing an event--an event based on a doctrine that I find at its core to be abusive on many levels (though perhaps not as overtly as some of the more isolate incidents of leader suggestions to grab others' genitals), between the malnutrition and sleep deprivation and group think (and stolen culture). I want to be a supportive partner, but it's hard to support this group when I am fearful of its impact on my dear husband and other already gentle men.

Wado/Thank you!

I'm new here, and see a few threads on MKP, so not really sure what each is for

this is the longest so I am starting here

I monitor the ex_mkp Yahoo group (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ex_mkp/) and find it quite useful

the only problem is the moderator is too controlling about what gets said by whom, and that really limits what that forum could really be, a help to all

also, as the mod is so controlling, he tends to allow the anti-MKP people attack the MKPers, but not the other way around, and there are mostly intelligent contributors but one or two morons, one is here in RR and most of her posts are misguided and incoherent

the net effect is it's a group where there is more bitching and moaning than constructive conversation, and the extremes of either side overshadow the sensible

I'll be up front and say that I do not support MKP but I do want to hear them out, objectively, fairly, and without someone telling me or anyone else what anyone can say - is this that kind of place?

"SeekTruth":

At this thread we have the teachings and instructions excerpted and critiqued from the actual MKP material used by leaders for its seminars.

The material pretty much speaks for itself and seems very manipulative.

You may post here, but don't start flaming, which is against the rules you agreed to.

Quote

moderator is too controlling

Quote

one or two morons, one is here in RR and most of her posts are misguided and incoherent

Quote

more bitching and moaning than constructive conversation

So far you have already indulged in some name calling.

MKP is an LGAT, with many of the same issues and problems other LGATs like Landmark Education, NXIVM, Sterling Institute of Relationship, Impact and Lifespring have.

This is discussed in some depth already on this thread.

Mod,

Apologies, not off to such a good start, and thanks for allowing my post through. As far as flames, that's not what I'm here for and there's really only one in my post, the comment about the other mod being too controlling is really an observation, and IMHO, a shame as that forum is a good one with a lot of potential for more than it is. (I can express that here, can't I?)

My interest is in MKP only, not the other LGATs, and I've been reading RR since last year, all of the MKP-related posts - very helpful, like the Yahoo group.

I'm here to to get and share information and opinions, and make informed decisions about to attend or not. An easier decision now, not such an easy one before I did all this reading, especially given the person introducing me to MKP and the respect I have for him. Not that that will prevent me from making the right decision for myself.

What I find dangerous, well maybe that is a strong word, but not hearing rational discussions and making blanket condemnations lacks credibility for me, and prevents all of us from getting a full picture. Some MKPers have arrogant responses, some anti-MKPers beat up MKPers who are sharing information. I can't but think that some of those MKPers, just some, might be on their way to being ex-MKP and that may be why they are here. It must not be so easy to give up on something one thought was a good thing and having invested all that effort.

So there are all kinds of purposes for these forums - a place for those who have been hurt to have a community, a place for those with loved ones in MKP to get support and help, a place for those considering to joing to make an informed opinion, a place for those in it and happy to provide their point of view, a place for those in it and no longer happy to have a place to go afterwards.

I understand and appreciate that many of the people here have their or their loved ones' lives compromised by MKP, but after all this research one thing that appears to be clear is that despite the manuals and staffing and training, the different organizations appear to operate differently, and I for one am interested in acknowledging and understanding those differences, differences that many in and out of the organizations are just realizing are there.

Those differences do not validate MKP as a whole, in my mind, but they do bring another level of complexity to the big picture.

Quote
rrmoderator
You may post here, but don't start flaming, which is against the rules you agreed to.

MKP is an LGAT, with many of the same issues and problems other LGATs like Landmark Education, NXIVM, Sterling Institute of Relationship, Impact and Lifespring have.

Quote
SeekTruth
Mod,

Apologies, not off to such a good start, and thanks for allowing my post through. As far as flames, that's not what I'm here for and there's really only one in my post, the comment about the other mod being too controlling is really an observation, and IMHO, a shame as that forum is a good one with a lot of potential for more than it is. (I can express that here, can't I?)

Although I know that this is to Mod, I appreciate your apology as a new member to the list, who also hopes to have respectful dialogue among all members from all points of view. From what I have read on this board so far (and I have read all messages related to mkp on every strand of this board), I think that you can express any of your opinions--provided you do so respectfully. I appears that members of this list get frustrated primarily when others are flaming, baiting, and/or disrepecting/denying someone their opinion or experience.

Quote
SeekTruth
I'm here to to get and share information and opinions, and make informed decisions about to attend or not. An easier decision now, not such an easy one before I did all this reading, especially given the person introducing me to MKP and the respect I have for him. Not that that will prevent me from making the right decision for myself.

So why is your decision easier? Are you leaning toward one decision or the other? And BTW, glad you are focused on making the right decision for you--not what the mkp'er you respect wants you to do--either way. My husband has finally made his decision not to return to mkp, and did so in part by reading the opinions expressed on this discussion board. He is a licensed therapist who is having a hard time reconciling how he has been trained to ethically treat (whether you want to call it therapy or educate) his clients versus the strategies employed by mkp. At no time has he had to ask a client to keep their therapy/education gained in his care a secret. At no point has he asked his clients to sign a confidentiality agreement before treatment. At no point are they left with no option of after care post-treatment. At no point does he deny them proper nutrition or sleep. At no point are clients asked to give up their cell phones, to go out into the woods away from the rest of civilization, and to take off their clothing--all of which strips them of safety and thus makes them more vulnerable. At not point has he made as much as what these "elders" in mkp has off of such therapy/education (my hubby works for a non-profit agency), despite the fact that one person on this board suggested that making $75 K wasn't that much (my hubby doesn't make even close to that much as a licensed therapist with 15 years of experience and a graduate degree, who works full-time every week vs. one of these "elders" who works a few weekends a year with no formal, accredited, or licensed training). And when there are abuses of power in licensed agencies, there are mechanisms for repercussions/reprimands to take place.

Quote
SeekTruth
What I find dangerous, well maybe that is a strong word, but not hearing rational discussions and making blanket condemnations lacks credibility for me, and prevents all of us from getting a full picture. Some MKPers have arrogant responses, some anti-MKPers beat up MKPers who are sharing information. I can't but think that some of those MKPers, just some, might be on their way to being ex-MKP and that may be why they are here. It must not be so easy to give up on something one thought was a good thing and having invested all that effort.

I agree that some of these discussions have taken place on this board, but there have also been sustained discussions that do look at both the postive and negative aspects of this group. Several people have shared some of their positive outcomes, but others have expressed that they have had negative outsomes. It has improved some marriages; it has destoyed others. I guess you need to decide for yourself if you can find what you're looking for from this group, and whether or not you think this group will help you finnd those things in a way that is healthy and safe for you. For example, my hubby is looking for more male comraderie, but he is not willing to treat others the way he was treated as an initiate to get that benefit. He is also not willing to pay what mkp is asking to make those friends--as it also costs to staff the weekends. He is also concerned about the secrecy and the misleading of new recruits to "get them in the doors." And you're right, it was hard for him to give up on this group, which he thought had to be helpful since someone he trusted advocated for it so much and originally paid $600 to be a part of. As he explained it, he wanted to like it since he had invested so much money into it.

Quote
SeekTruth
So there are all kinds of purposes for these forums - a place for those who have been hurt to have a community, a place for those with loved ones in MKP to get support and help, a place for those considering to joing to make an informed opinion, a place for those in it and happy to provide their point of view, a place for those in it and no longer happy to have a place to go afterwards.

I agree, this forum can be for all those groups, but keep in mind that this group is sponsored by the "Cult Awareness Forum" in a thread titled "Large group Awareness Training." So you should be prepared for more people coming to this discussion board to discuss the cult-like tendencies of this group and its LGAT ties. I understand that your main purpose for coming here is to discuss mkp, but since it is a known LGAT, you should also expect some discussion of the historically-proven detriments (such as brainwashing/group-think) of joining such groups.

Quote
SeekTruth
I understand and appreciate that many of the people here have their or their loved ones' lives compromised by MKP, but after all this research one thing that appears to be clear is that despite the manuals and staffing and training, the different organizations appear to operate differently, and I for one am interested in acknowledging and understanding those differences, differences that many in and out of the organizations are just realizing are there.

Very true, the chapters do vary from region to region, but the doctrine is constant among all groups, and that doctrine calls for the malnutrition, sleep deprivation, and identity stripping of all new intiates. The doctrine used by all chapters is also based on a faulty impression of physics. The doctrine is also based on a "one-size-fits-all" approach to education (which flies in the face of what all *licensed* educators, such as my self, and *licensed* therapists, such as my husband, have been taught about effective education and therapy). Finally, the doctine that all chapters promote the same activities based on Jungian and Gestalt therapy, which is too powerful to use without being trained properly and without providing after care (which could have played a role in the suicides mentioned by ex-mkp'er family members). I agree that some chapters may abuse their power in more overt ways than others, and some of the more emotionally stable intiates may reap some rewards from the weekends, but it is still a fact that all mkp staffers get to eat and sleep better than the intiates, which allows their brains and bodies to funtion more effectively than those they are trying to "educate," and the staffers keep the details of the weekend secret from their initiates and in fact mislead them into carpooling with stranges and signing contracts, which at its core is an abuse of power.

Quote
SeekTruth
Those differences do not validate MKP as a whole, in my mind, but they do bring another level of complexity to the big picture.

I agree that this LGAT is complex, and there is much to weigh as far the the differences in the extent power is abused from chapter to chapter, but since the doctrine that each chapter is founded upon facilitates the abuse of power, I would not take the risk of joining a chapter to wait and see to what extent that chapter will do so. Even a little abuse of power opens up the door for greater abuse. It's kind of like an abusive relationship with another person--you train them how to treat you--and if you agree to be abused even a little bit, they may begin to think that they could get away with more the next time.

Thanks for your thoughtful post SeekTruth. You've helped me to think more deeply about some of my concerns with this group. Good luck in your seeking, and let me know if you have any questions for me.

Anidawehi and SeekTruth,

Overall I have seen that the moderator has been pretty fair about posts and does his/her best to keep out the anger and personal attacks. And (unless I missed something) they do not call MKP a 'cult' on this site, they call it an LGAT. I'm willing to agree that they use LGAT techniques, however so does the Marines, most fraternities and other groups that are not cults / brainwashers.

I found this article on the 'counter' or 'anti-cult' movement to be interesting. The section on 'brainwashing' and 'deprogramming' was a perspective I had not seen before.

[www.msu.edu]

frank

frank_d:

No I don't consider MKP a "cult" and have never said that it was.

But I do recognize that MKP is not up front about what it is doing. MKKP also seems to use the same coercive persuasion techniques employed by other LGATs.

The notes that leaders use, as those posted on this board, demonstrate quite a bit of knowing and deliberate manipulation.

LGATs are not like "the Marines or most fraternities."

Most people are virtually clueless and have no idea what they are getting into when they approach a LGATs, which are often secretive.

At least with the Marines and fraternities there is no deception and people essentially know what to expect.

See [www.culteducation.com]

Note the distinctions made between "thought reform," which is what many LGATs seem to do, and other means of persuasion.

Also see [www.culteducation.com]

This research paper by a clinical psychologist illustrates in some depth what is typically wrong with most LGATs.

Hi, FrankD.

Thanks for the link. I checked it out. Like Mod, I never said mkp is a cult, but a LGAT. I did say that mkp has cult-like tendencies, but not enough to be considered a cult. By quoting the resource you linked, we can see some cult-like tendencies.

Jeff Parr includes the following as characteristics of cults:

Quote

The group is focused on a living leader to whom members
seem to display excessively zealous, unquestioning
commitment.

Don't really see this w/this group, although many members have an unquestioning commitment to the group.

Quote

The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members.

The group is preoccupied with making money.

These appear to be present given my hubby's expereince, as well as many ex-mkp'ers' experiences shared on this board.

Quote

Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even
punished.

I would say that men are not punished, but groupthink is used, as well as activity-packed weekends that do not allow for much time to question, reflect, doubt, etc. (see [en.wikipedia.org] for more on groupthink). Men are kept too busy and are not provided the proper nourishment, rest, and alone time to make independent and rational decisions.

Quote

Mind-numbing techniques (such as meditation, chanting,
speaking in tongues, denunciation sessions, debilitating
work routines) are used to suppress doubts about the group
and its leader(s).

Mind-numbing can occur from the same issue mentioned in my response to the previous quote, not to mention that the mkp'ers on this board and my husband all agree that the weekend is rigorous. There is also drumming and questionable hypnosis going on. The constant music also makes it difficult for recruitees to focus on independent thinking.

Quote

The leadership dictates sometimes in great detail how
members should think, act, and feel (for example: members
must get permission from leaders to date, change jobs, get
married; leaders may prescribe what types of clothes to
wear, where to live, how to discipline children, and so
forth).

I don't think that this happens, but during the weekend itself, initiates are expected to follow the lead of the staffers and are expected to give up all "identity items" that connect themselves to the "outside world."

Quote

The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status
for itself, its leader(s), and members (for example: the
leader is considered the Messiah or an avatar; the group
and/or the leader has a special mission to save humanity).

MKP is elistist in that the rhetoric both on their websites, doctrine, and during the weekends all suggest that these men are the ones who "get it"--who live in integrity. And those who do not come back to the group just "didn't get it" or refuse the "gifts" of the MKP. But I don't think that MKP goes as far at the quote above suggests.

Quote

The group has a polarized us- versus-them mentality, which causes conflict with the wider society.

From my husband's experience, this did happen to some extent on his weekend, with the those who get it vs. those who don't rhetoric. And the leaders also warned their new recruits that they may no longer fit in with their outside world after such a weekend, as those on the "outside" would not get it and mmen on the outside are not as "enlightened," which consequently promotes and us vs. them mentality and suggests that the new intiates may feel more comfortable fraternizing with mainly mkp men.

Quote

The group's leader is not accountable to any authorities
(as are, for example, military commanders and ministers,
priests, monks, and rabbis of mainstream denominations).

Because the mkp is promoting itself as a non-profit agency, it is not held to the same standards as for-profit businesses, even though there are profits being made. Also because they dub themselves as an "educational" group instead of therapeutic, they are not held to the same standards as licensed and accredited agencies that offer therapy conducted by licensed therapists. Thus, if abuses of power occur in mkp, they are not as easily rectified and the leaders don't have to be held accountable (due to recruitees signing away these rights in the paperwork prior to intiation). In accredited therapy, clients do not sign away their rights to hold their therapist accountable for any damages done to them physically and emotionally.

Quote

The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted
ends justify means that members would have considered
unethical before joining the group (for example: collecting
money for bogus charities).

This ties back to the common phrase offered up by mkp'ers: "share the fruit not the tree." This is tied to the fact that the initiates are not supposed to share the processes of the weekend, as those on the "outside" will not understand. Thus, they justify some of the abusive activities via "the end justifies the means" mentality. And like many mkp'ers have said on these boards, they would probably not have gone to the weekend had they known about these processes/activities beforehand.

Quote

The leadership induces guilt feelings in members in order
to control them.

I don't know for sure if this takes place, although one might argue that the groupthink that takes place may play a part in this. Perhaps initiates might feel guilty or feel that they may let the group down, or hinders its progress, if they do not succumb to the process.

Quote

Members' subservience to the group causes them to cut ties
with family and friends, and to give up personal goals and
activities that were of interest before joining the group.

In some cases mentioned on this board, it appears that this has happened, but I think that this is more of a case by case and region by region occurence. I don't think that this is a standared requirement of mkp, although some participants may certainly choose to give up these things in order to get more involved with mkp.

Quote

Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time
to the group.

See response to previous criterion.

Quote

Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize
only with other group members

I don't know of any mkp communes, so I don't think the living part is a concern. But like I previously noted, there is some rhetoric that suggests that socializing with primarily mkp'ers would make it easier on the intiates, and who wouldn't want to socialize primarily with "men of integrity." (But as I noted in a previous post, this integrity is certainly debatable.)

Just thought I'd offer this up for discussion. Again, I am not claiming that mkp is a cult . . . it just exhibits some cult-like tendencies that I think are unhealthy for its recruits. I think that Mod has done a great job of explaining mkp's LGAT ties, so I won't offer anything else on that.

Hope this clarifies my POV. Have a blessed day.